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301  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: To Bitstamp: Gox's coins are being sold on your exchange on: March 23, 2014, 06:16:30 PM
The law of dealing with any type of stolen property.  This is an old old law, dating back to biblical times and is represented in Uk, US and most modern legal systems.

The problem with this is I don't think "ownership" of an amount of bitcoin has been legally established to be property.   It truly is nothing but ledger entries on a public database, not like taking control of physical property like blood diamonds or Nazi gold.

I think the legal framework will rely on laws concerning fraud, not stolen property.

If I coerce or fool you into giving me access to your online bank account, transfer the money to another account under my control,  Did I steal your property or did I defraud you?
302  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How can we make BTC mainstream? on: March 23, 2014, 05:56:06 PM
You can't have profit and a stable price at the same time. Either the price is stable and it's a good store of value, or the price is fluctuating and you can make profit.

Yes you can.  It should be stable so it acts more like a bond rather than a penny stock.   Stable, long-term investors will make a profit, day traders need to go back to pink sheet stocks.

Bond-like growth will encourage adoption.  Pump-and-dump games harm it.
303  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: To Bitstamp: Gox's coins are being sold on your exchange on: March 23, 2014, 05:51:29 PM

If bitstamp is held liable for accepting coins that are later legally proven to be stolen, this will present a serious issue with the fungibility of bitcoin.

They won't be charged with accepting stolen coins, they only become liable from the moment they were notified that the coins are "allegedly" stolen. If they ignore the allegations and allow the coins to trade without investigating the source then they are willfully laundering money.

Where would the legal liability begin?  Bitstamp can't be held accountable for not reading every bitcoin forum or respond to a random emails.   However, legal counsel representing the creditors should immediately notify Bitstamp that the funds are suspected stolen.

304  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: To Bitstamp: Gox's coins are being sold on your exchange on: March 23, 2014, 05:07:12 PM
Bitstamp has been for a long time bugging people with all kinds of AML stuff in situations where money laundering does not really seem relevant at all.
see for example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=406908.0

Now we have a situation where we have a very high probability money laundering ongoing and so now it is time to see whether bitstamp was really serious with the AML stuff or whether the all AML in bitstamp was just bullshit invented in order to bug the little people.

This will be a test of government involvment in bitcoin.  Since noone in governmental authority has currently declared these coins stolen, then the liability should be on the entity/person that put them into bitstamp, where bitstamp should give up the identity of the that entity/person when presented with the proper legal paperwork.  

If bitstamp is held liable for accepting coins that are later legally proven to be stolen, this will present a serious issue with the fungibility of bitcoin.

At any rate, if I were bitstamp, I'd probably freeze the funds and give the Japanese bankruptcy court an opportunity to lay claim to them out of due diligence, due to the large amount.
305  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of location on: March 23, 2014, 04:54:12 PM
And who needs a project that requires proof-of-location? I don't.

There are augmented-reality games where people must physically go to a location to play some sort of action in the game.

However, I can see more useful applications, such as temporal-geotagged digital images. 
306  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of location on: March 23, 2014, 03:15:04 PM
Hello Bitcoin braintrust.  I am working on a project that requires proof-of-location.  A google search yields a number of centralized solutions.  One being...
https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~uhengart/publications/gis10.pdf
Is this a solved problem or can reported location always be spoofed?
Could there be a blockchain style proof of location?
MrBea

Perhaps one design a system where proof of location is made by paying a small btc fee to a node that consists of a open wi-fi point.  If enough of a fee is sent to the node's dynamic bitcoin address, it will sign a bitcoin message certifying that the node was contacted over wifi at a certain time.  The location proof could be queried in some kind of decentralized database.  Secondly, nodes would have to overlap and communicate with each other, in essence, they would certify that they are in range of each other, and reported locations that appear to be outliers would be eliminated from the network.  Some kind of algorithm could be developed that establishes confidence of proof of location, depending on home many proofs that the locatee can obtain, and the trustworthiness of the locater nodes, based upon how many other nodes certify that node.

If there is a large enough user base of locatees willing to pay fees to local nodes for the service, the economic incentive to run a node should insure growth in urban areas where the user base is likely to use the service.

Cheating might be possible by establishing a relay point, and I'm not sure what can be done about that.
307  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: To Bitstamp: Gox's coins are being sold on your exchange on: March 23, 2014, 02:29:57 PM
Just playing devil's advocate, but how do you know that the 2011 movements weren't a withdrawal from mtGox that went into someone else's non-mtGox cold storage?
308  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: [BTC] Online/Offline Wallet on: March 22, 2014, 09:45:13 PM
Just curious, how much complexity do you enforce when generating a passphrase?

It would seem that running an extensive dictionary password attack could yield some ill-gotten dividends if you have a high enough usage.
309  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Why would a transaction need multiple inputs from the same address? on: March 22, 2014, 08:09:59 PM
Because bitcoin doesn't work as you think

You have 5 inputs from the same address because you have received fund with the same address for at least 5 times. The concept of "balance" does not exist in bitcoin.

Ok.   What is the reason for "fracturing" the balance on an address?  In my false understanding of the bitcoin address paradigm, I had assumed the sender proves that an amount is transferred to an address, and the balance of that address is determined by the public ledger of the blockchain as a sum of the valid inputs to and outputs from transactions -- thus the owner of the address can generate a valid transaction with a single input that can contain up to the balance of the sending address.

BTW, thanks all for explaining this.
310  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Bitsforbeats.com - Calling All Artists! on: March 22, 2014, 07:39:30 PM
Just a suggestion:  It would be nice if there was a better interface to show the bitcoin.   Perhaps a btc URI link, or use the code at blockchain.info that displays a pop-up window with the QR code for an address.  (look up an address on blockchain.info, then click the donate button that will show the code you need)

311  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Butterflylabs legit? on: March 22, 2014, 06:33:31 PM
I recently started mining bitcoin with a few asics antminers U1's. I was wondering if buttefly labs were legit, I saw their 600Gh/s cards, butwere only with pre-order... Has anybody bought from them before or pre-ordered one of these cards?

Be aware of doing preorders.  BFL has a history of not delivering on when promised.  The uncertainty of getting mining equipment in future time frame adds more risk to the economics of the mining operation.  I paid for a pre-ordered Jalapeno rig from BFL, by the time I got it up and running, I estimate about 2-3 years for that original investment to pay off, or maybe never as the network hashrate rises exponentially.    It's better to stick to equipment to be delivered in a short time frame, and buy something that can be paid off in 2-3 months of running it based on the current network hashrate.

Edit: At the point I committed to preorder, I calculated a 4 month payoff at the network hashrate at the time.
312  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Buffet right or wrong? on: March 22, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
The traceable public block chain is a big improvement over cash in their ability to associate and track.

The proportion of the block chain that can be associated with identities is likely to be a super majority. Research has supported this and that research didn't have the data about every IP address association that the NSA does. And the fact that your IP address is almost never obscured (and the governments can remove your anonymous WiFi Hotspot and unregistered, prepaid mobile device options) strongly supports this conclusion.

If you are referring to the paper "An Analysis of Anonymity in the Bitcoin System " by Fergal Reid & Martin Harrigan,  please note this very key statement in that paper:
Quote
Much of this analysis is circumstantial. We cannot say for certain whether or not these flows imply a shared agency in both incidents. However, it does
illustrate the power of our tool when tracing the flow of Bitcoins and generating hypotheses.

Your magic NSA database of bitcoin-address-to-identities would be a large collection of circumstantial evidence, not definitive proof of associations to identities.  It could be used as probable cause for search warrants and subpenas, but without collaborating evidence, it is worthless by itself in an actual domestic criminal case.

Likewise, a magic NSA database of ip-address-to-identities is also circumstantial.   I may pay the bill for my residential internet service, but I allow my friends to use my wi-fi, the logs that associate their device's mac address to activity on my LAN is overwritten within 7 days.  I may be circumstantially suspect of any crimes committed through my residential IP address, but it is not definite proof.

If I were hypothetically motivated to commit some financial crime, I would most likely walk a kilometer to the large state university in my town, connect to the guest wi-fi network covering the entire campus and do my thing.   All they have is the mac address of my tablet and maybe some geo data.  If that tablet is never discovered by warrant, never registered or otherwise associated with me, it can't be used as evidence linking me to the activity.

You make the claim that "governments can remove your anonymous WiFi Hotspot."  I would like to see a reference to a paper explaining how this is done, or an understandable explanation based on facts.

Unless the standards of evidence drastically change in the USA,  I don't see how the government is going to prosecute and march off 10,000 financial criminals to ass-rape prison.  The idea is ludicrous, since there are plenty of financial crimes NOT involving bitcoin committed on Wall Street every day, and I have yet to see an assembly line of prosecutions.
313  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [850 TH] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + VarDiff on: March 22, 2014, 03:20:39 PM
need tons of fees

If you have a transaction with paid fees, starting in a block that is later invalid, what happens to that transaction?

If it gets included in a block that is orphaned by the main chain, it will be eventually mined and included in the main chain since it was never confirmed by the main chain.  Typically a high priority transancation that paid miners fees would be included in the orphaned block and the main chain block that replaced it.

Keep in mind that the block reward and the mining fees can't be spent until there are 100 confirmations on that block.
314  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Why would a transaction need multiple inputs from the same address? on: March 22, 2014, 06:22:43 AM
I have an imported address in my blockchain hotwallet.   It came from a paper wallet that was loaded with one transaction.

As it lived in my hot wallet, it was used for several send transactions that were less than the amount on the address.   The transactions that the blockchain wallet formed used the entire amount on the address as the single input, and sent the desired amount to the receiver as the first output, then on the second output, sent the change back to the input address.

There were several small transactions receiving funds.

On the final transaction, draining this address, blockchain generated a transaction that had inputs from 4 different address in my wallet, however, in made 5 different inputs to the transaction using amounts from earlier receive and change output from previous transactions.

The final transaction triggered a double miners fee because of the size.

Was there any technical reason why a transaction needs 5 different inputs from the same address?
315  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How can we make BTC mainstream? on: March 22, 2014, 05:39:35 AM
...Or, alternatively we just wait for the next spike to reach ~$10,000 and the world would probably freak out  Grin

That would make bitcoin look like more of a ponzi scheme, because very few would be able to cash out at $10,000.   The thing to look for is a slowly increasing price matching the rate of adoption and a consistent rise in trading volume.   The pump and dump games of the get-rich-quick speculators would slowly fade away.
316  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [850 TH] Slush's Pool (mining.bitcoin.cz); TX FEES + VarDiff on: March 22, 2014, 05:30:47 AM
seems like the last 2or3 rounds aren't adding up in my total

Round 21856 was an orphaned block.  It was never added to the blockchain, therefore, no payout.
317  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How can we make BTC mainstream? on: March 22, 2014, 05:09:21 AM
In your opinion, how can we all bring BTC to the public? I've spoken with a lot of people about the future of the currency and they all pretty much laugh at me and tell me to keep dreaming. I believe that knowledge is power and we need to educate the public about what BTC actually is and why it's better than normal currency.  I remember when PayPal was just a baby and no one would trust them with their fiat. The same goes with BTC at this moment. Not a lot of people want to invest compared to normal fiat currency exchanges. What do you think will bring a wider acceptance?

For one, wallets need to be more secure and less subject to hacking.   Once people can keep their bitcoin safe and secure without having to worry that some malware has installed a keylogger and transmitted a copy of their wallet file to a thief from a general purpose computing device, then the masses may adopt in masses.  

I think bitcoin as a currency will take off with the under-banked first.   Banks don't like to open accounts for people with bad credit.  Since they don't want these customers, and using a debit card with greendot involves a 1% load fee at the very minimum (more typically 5% or more if you can't load $500 at a time), plus monthly charges; there's going to be a lot of room for a cheaper system.  Think ubiquitous cash-BTC ATM machines and bills/rent that can be paid with bitcoin, just by scanning the QR code on your bill with your low-cost hardware wallet.   Eventually employers might have an option to have wages paid in bitcoin, but the price needs to be much more stable for that.

Merchants will start to love bitcoin transactions, since the time it takes to clear a bitcoin transaction (an hour) is much less than the time it takes to clear a credit card transaction or a check (weeks).
318  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If I loaned you 1 bitcoin today, how could i expect you to repay if value rises? on: March 22, 2014, 04:31:00 AM
If I loaned you 1.00000000 bitcoin's today, which has a value somewhere around the arbitrary number of whatever value $600 i really supposed to represent, With a 10 year term.

If bitcoin rises in dollar value over 10 years by a multiple of 10, or the dollar devalues by a factor of 10, how could I reasonably expect repayment of the original loan of 100 million satoshi's.

That's not really a loan, it is short selling.   If the price of bitcoin rises, the person making the loan of the commodity needs the borrower to come up with collateral or money to cover the short position, or they need to buy a bitcoin as collateral to cover themselves.  If the loan is unsecured, then you probably just lost a bitcoin.
319  Economy / Web Wallets / Re: Blockchain.info - Bitcoin Block explorer & Currency Statistics on: March 22, 2014, 03:41:09 AM

Same with me...

Got a response from support saying: "We are still fixing a few issues with the API. The funds are not lost. They will either get to the destination or be returned. Please wait for a bit. Sorry about the inconvenience."

Key part of that being "or be returned". If funds are returned to the customer I'll not be especially happy, considering some emailed rather angrily, forcing my hand into processing their orders.

Check the receiving address on blockexplorer.com, which should be clear of any of blockchain.info's database issues.   If your transaction is not there, then it was probably never transmitted to the network by blockchain.info.

If that's the case, download your backup file, import the private keys into MultiBit sweep them to a new address, and after that is confirmed,  resend the transaction.   If blockchain.info gets the transaction unstuck, it will be rejected by the network as a double-spend, if all the old addresses are empty.
320  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Buffet right or wrong? on: March 22, 2014, 03:17:43 AM
I'm not following.  Are you saying that one should be held responsible for further activity of the output of a transaction, after it leaves the receiving address that is not attached to your identity?

I'm saying that if it leaves your address A (attached to your identity) and goes to address B, then leaves address B,
and assuming address B has no other outputs or inputs, it can be reasonable argued that address B was simply
a passthrough address, if you get my drift.


If you're doing something really illegal, and you don't want to become a person of interest -- then sure, using a mixer might be a good idea to cover your tracks, especially if the conduit is used more than once.

But if they can't prove you ever had control of address B, and that's the only thing that links you to the crime committed with address C, then I wouldn't worry about the case ever going to trial.

But the original supposition brought up by Hopper/Anonymint is that the omnipresent black magic spy agencies can somehow map all addresses holding bitcoin to individual people and demand payment of stupid tax to compensate those that got ripped off by a hacker or a fraudster is ludicrous.
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