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3021  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I have a few questions with Bitcoin. Help please? on: December 29, 2020, 12:45:25 AM
1-)When there is no BTC transfer, is there no BTC production or will the BTC algorithm generate questions and continue BTC production?

Both the block rewards and the transaction fees are independent entities, before the total 21M bitcoins are mined, blocks without transaction fees can happen, after the 21M production is over, blocks without block rewards can happen.

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2-)Even if there is only one transfer of 1 BTC in a block, does the miner who approves this transaction receive a mining fee of 6.25 times this transfer?

The miner receives a block reward (6.25 as of now but cuts in half every 4 years or so) regardless of the existence of transactions.


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3-)When I went into detail on one of the blocks at https://www.blockchain.com/explorer, I saw that the mining fee of 6.25 and the fees that the transferers left as a commission to the miners were transferred to a single wallet with a "COINBASE (Newly Created Coins)" note at the end of the block. Are all tips and mining fees for a block transferred to a single miner? There are around 3,000 transfers in a block. Does a single miner approve all of them, so all fees are transferred to this person? If mining is done in groups, how is the earnings of a block distributed among miners?

All the rewards (transaction fees + block reward) will go to the address that is in the coinbase transaction, this is all that the blockchain understands, as far as "group mining" it's called pool mining, miners get paid based on the amount of work they put, the number of trials (hashes) submitted by every miner determines their share of the total reward ( different pools pay in a different format, read about PPS vs PPLNS)

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4-)Are the buying and selling transactions made on crypto money exchanges in-chain transactions? Will a wallet be created for me if I buy BTC from the exchange? When I sell the BTC that I bought again, should it be added to the transfer confirmation, ie to the block? Or is there a representative purchase and sale in stock exchanges?

Only some (very a few if any) decentralized exchanges work on the bases of smart contracts (yes possible on BTC too) where the buying and selling do happen on the main chain, but that is a tiny bit of volume which could be ignored, so safe to say that the majority of volume happens outside of the main blockchain, if you buy BTC from an exchange you get your own BTC address but not your own wallet, just like your bank account number, it's unique just for you, but the money in it is essentially owned by the bank.

So in reality all of the exchange happens only on the database of the exchange, just like how things go when you transfer money from your bank account to your wife, the bank simply changes the balance sheet without moving anything.  


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5-)Is UTXO the name of the BTC packages in the wallet or is it the name of the change returned from the transfers?

It's the name of the "packages" owned by x address, if you have two of 10$ bills your balance is $20 and you have 2 UTXO each is $10

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Is a new address being created due to UTXO? If so, does the old address still remain available? What if there is money in it? Is it connected to the same wallet at two addresses?

In bitcoin, you can't send a portion of the UTXO, so if you have 1 UTXO of  1 bitcoin and you want to send 0.3 to your friend, you will need to send 0.3 to him and 0.7 to yourself (your own address), your own address can be the same one you sent from or a new one, there are no rules in the blockchain that state you must use a new address, but wallets do create a new address for you to receive the change of 0.7BTC just for privacy reasons, as well as more security, this is a long story but you should understand that BTC address isn't exactly a public key, but once you spend from it, the public key becomes available and thus it makes it slightly easier to know your private key, by slightly easier I mean instead of it being "very, very, very, very difficult" it becomes "very, very, very difficult", notice the 1 missing "very" from the second one, I had to make it clear enough that even after revealig your public key it isn't by anymeans easy to guess your private key, but once and if quantum computers become a thing, then re-using the same address will be a stupid idea, because "Elliptic curve cryptography is vulnerable to quantum"





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6-)When calculating the mining fee, the byte calculations are complete, but are the size of the transfer, the age of the transaction and the number of inputs also important? Why can different bytes output for similar operations? How is this calculated if the age of the procedure is important? I saw a fee of 0.0001 BTC when a transfer was made under 0.01 BTC in a source. Is this a transaction other than the calculated number of bytes?

All that matters is the size of the transaction, transactions with more UTXOs will have a larger size, also the address you send from whether it's a legacy or Segwit address makes a lot of difference, your wallet software will calculate the size in bytes and x that by the number of satoshis that everyone is currently playing, so if your transaction is 100 bytes in size, and you pay 1 satoshi you pay 100 satoshis, but every wallet calculates the "best" fees differently depending on their code and how it analyzes the mempool and current situation.

You should also know that a transaction with 100BTC may still pay less than that with 0.1BTC, it all depends on the total size of the transation and how much people are willing to pay, the miners will pick the once that pay the most per byte.

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7-)Due to the halving practice, BTC mining rewards are halved every 210,000. Production is made by decreasing 50 BTC, 25 BTC, 12.5 BTC, 6.25 BTC. But when the checks are done, it is seen that 21 million BTC will never be produced, I have made many checks related to this, but even if there are very small fractions, it never reaches 21 million, and this is called the Zeno Paradox.  


As a comment line in the code file named “amount.h” in this open source code on the site that publishes the open source codes of Bitcoins named Github.com, “Note that this constant is * not * the total money supply, which in Bitcoin currently happens to be less than 21,000,000 BTC for various reasons, but rather a sanity check ”.

I believe there are some rounding rules that will handle this, I will dig into this and get back to you.
3022  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: It is 2020 time for a new diff thread. on: December 28, 2020, 09:13:19 PM
Well we could see some serious earnings  for miners if your numbers are correct.

My theory behind that maximum hashrate increment being 2x at most is that the fact that it gets harder to double the hashrate the larger it gets, if the whole network has 10 asic miners you just need 10 more miners to double it, if it has a million miners you will need a million miner.

The current hash rate is 130EH, every 1EH is about 10,000 of the 19 series (we say 100th is the average of T19,S19 and S19 pro) so to get 130EH we need 130*10,000 = 1,300,000 S19 series mining gear, now we will just assume that all the mining manufacturers will join forces to make that 1.3M gears, is that even remotely possible? I highly doubt it, current order list from Bitmain isn't even at 100k S19 miners and they are sold out until August, the best deal Riot managed to get is 1000 miners monthly, and Riot is one of the largest clients bitmain has, so even if Bitmain was to facilitate the same amount of order for 9 other clients, we assume their maximum capacity is 10,000 S19 miner per month, way too much for Bitmain to make over a million mining gear.

Keep in mind that it isn't only Bitmain's limitations, it's also semiconductors shortage that can't keep up with this demand, you have an increasing demand from other components that need those semiconductors which is outside of the mining world, and semiconductor makers like Samsung and TSMC won't be willing to lose their regular clients knowing very well that this mining thing is just a temporary business before the next halving or two make it hardly profitable.

With that being said, mining gears manufacturer could turn back to 12 or 16nm chips since those will be profitable too, so that will help the hashrate increase, but with all of these factors combined, it's very difficult to make 130EH worth of mining gears in 12 months.

Again, all of this is based on the assumption that Bitcoin's price keeps going up non-stop, and that is a theory that is subject to failure.
3023  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: It is 2020 time for a new diff thread. on: December 28, 2020, 07:58:55 PM
These will result in very high difficulty. price of 100k means diff can be 4x what it is now.

For bitcoin to be worth a 100k it just needs an extra 1.5 trillion of investment, that is about 20% of the market cap of gold, in other words, it's easily doable, but for difficulty to go 4x the world needs to find a brand new way of making asic chips, it doesn't seem like mining manufacturers can make 100EH worth of gear in a single year, let alone 300EH, I believe that in 2021 we will have a maximum of 260EH which is double the current hashrate, regardless of how high the price goes.
3024  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Why not to mine on pools mining empty blocks, and why do pools mine empty blocks on: December 28, 2020, 01:05:16 AM
It takes less than 200ms from receiving a block in bitcoind, until it can produce a full new block template with transactions.

For the sake of simplicity, we will assume that you are not cherry-picking blocks that suit your theory, and let's just assume by mining empty blocks you save 150ms (75% of the whole process you mentioned).

Now since this happens almost every 10 mins, then that is A LOT of money to be made by mining empty blocks, and here is how.

There is 86400000ms in a day, and 144 blocks to be mined, so by utilizing 100ms every 10 mins you get a total of 14400ms which is 0.0167% of the total 24 hours, in other words, Kano pool wastes 0.0167% of it's hashrate by not mining empty blocks.

When a pool like F2pool saves 150ms for every potential block, that's 552510 terahash worth of mining, if that's hard to understand think of it this way.

When F2pool knows about a new block coming, and while going through that 150ms process they switch their hashrate to another PPS pool and say that is Viabtc, by the end of the day they would get paid $1500 from mining for 150ms every 10 mins or a total of 21.1 seconds a day with 22,100,420.00th worth of hash power, but instead of doing this, they would just mine to their own pool and still by the end of the day/week/month/year, they will theoretically make that same amount of money.

And it gets even better when you don't have to download the block in the first place when your pool is synced with the other pools via any other protocol and all you need is their hash (not even the block header) then that makes it well above 200ms, but even with these numbers F2pool can potentially make over half a million dollar in profit yearly, or otherwise, lose it if they use your code and not mine empty blocks.

Edit:

Not saying it's a good thing to do so, nor do I encourage it, just trying to show you that no pool mines empty blocks for the sake of it, doing so means leaving money on the table (transaction fees), but fully making use of every second makes them a good amount of profit, and since all of these pools are motivated by profit only, then it makes sense why would they do so.
3025  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: whatsminer.net any experience? on: December 28, 2020, 12:03:29 AM
does anyone have experience with whatsminer.net

Are you questioning Whatsminer's integrity in general or just the website? Whatsminer is one of MicroBT distributors and their official website is whatsminer.net, my experience with MicroBT mining gears has been so great as far as quality is concerned but I have yet to order directly from their website, I remember they had some issues sticking to the delivery dates but no major issues were reported as far as I can see.
3026  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Why not to mine on pools mining empty blocks, and why do pools mine empty blocks on: December 27, 2020, 11:50:38 PM
Edit: I've gone through the logs for the last 2 years - since the beginning of 2019.
There has been only one case of empty work generated by my pool in all that time.
The bitcoind debug.log output for that shows:
Code:
2019-02-17 00:14:17.702612 CreateNewBlock(): block weight: 812 txs: 0 of 0 fees: 0.00000000 sigops 400

For that entire 2 year period (2019-2020) low work generation sizes:
Code:
Txns    Count
1           2
2          11
3          14
4          32

This is irrelevant for the topic that we are discussing here, my grandmother knows that the chances of the mempool being empty at any given time are slim to nothing, what we need to know is how long does it take you to download a full block, verify all of its transactions, remove the current transactions from your mempool, and create a new blocktemplate.
3027  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: Antminer S9K not working on: December 27, 2020, 11:09:26 PM
Code:
read chain[0] hardware info:
major type: 0
minor type: 2
chip level: 0
bom version: 0x10
pcb version: 0x39
fixture 8pattern result: L0

read chain[1] hardware info:
major type: 0
minor type: 2
chip level: 0
bom version: 0x10
pcb version: 0x39
fixture 8pattern result: L0


Where is Chain [2]? it seems that chain 2 is missing, and based on my experience with these lousy S9ks is that if there is one bad hashboard it will stop the whole miner from mining most of the time, so can you try to unplug chain 2 and try again? make sure you unplug the 6pin PSU cables and just the ribbon cable that goes to the control board.
3028  Local / منصات التبادل / Re: أنصحكم بإستخدام dydx و تجريب حضكم on: December 27, 2020, 03:43:51 PM
تبقى مسالة عدم اعتبار المنصة لا مركزية بسبب التزامها بقوانين البلد الذي انشئت و تعمل فيه قابلة للنقاش برايي!

النقاش سيكون مبني اولا على تعريف اللامركزية اصلا, حتى هده اللحظة لم يتفق البشر على تعريف الامركزية اصلا, وان كانت هده المنصة لامركزية فماذا نسمي uniswap ؟ من وجهة نظري ان المنصة اللامركزية يجب ان لاتخضع لقوانين اي دولة اي انها يجب ان لاتكون مسجلة كعلامة تجارية من الاساس, يعني مثل البتكوين, هل يمكن لاي دولة ان تدخل على "سيرفر" البتكوين وتقوم بحظر IP معين؟ بالطبع يمكنها ان تسن قوانين او تقوم بحظر المواقع المتعلقة بالبتكوين ولكن لايمكنها تطبيق الحظر من الجهة الاخرى. يعني مثلا

User > Bitcoin ( Decentralized)
User > Government  > bitcoin (Decentralized)
Bitcoin > Government > user (Centralized)

قد يبدو ان الامر هوا نفسه ولكنه مختلف جدا, يوجد فرق شاسع بين السيطرة الموجودة في طريق المسختدم للمنصة  وبينا السيطرة على المنصة نفسها, بما ان المنصة مجبرة على حظر دول معينة يعني انها مجبرة على تقديم تقارير التداول داخل المنصة, ويمكن جدا ان تقوم بحجز اموال المتداولين وطلب KYC في المستقبل, المنصة اللامركزية من وجهة نظري هي تلك التي لايكون لها كيان معروف, بل هي عبارة عن code يربط محافظ المتداولين في صورة عقود ذكية تتواجد كلها في حوض للسيولة او مايعرف ب Liquidity pool يعني مثلا طريقة عمل ال full node كل المستخدمين لديهم نفس الكود ولكن لايوجد سيرفر خاص بهدا الكود ولا تسطتيع اي دولة التحكم في الكود.

هدا معياري البسيط للمركزية فيما يخص المنصات, طبعا هده مجرد وجهة نظر لايجب ان تكون صحيحة.

3029  Local / التعدين / Re: ما هى الطريقه الامثل للتعدين على خوادم Ubuntu on: December 27, 2020, 03:22:33 PM
سيكون عليك تحميل برنامج تعدين لتتمكن من تعدين اي عملة, ولكن الاهم من هدا ان مواصفات السيرفر هدا لا يمكنك ان تعدن بها اصلا, التعدين بالمعالج او ال CPU اصبح من الماضي, التعدين الان يتم عبر كروت الشاشة او اجهزة اسك, ولا اعتقد ان ال VPS سيكون به Graphic card يمكنك استعماله لتعدين العملة اصلا.

وايضا بعض مزودي خدمات ال VPS يمنع استعمال موارده للتعدين وقد يعرض حسابك للاغلاق.
3030  Bitcoin / Mining software (miners) / Re: Exploit Antminer S9 and T9+ Firmware ASICBOOST original moded , FREE RELEASE ! on: December 27, 2020, 02:23:11 PM
Thank you for your reply or for the link, recommendation ...

Most custom firmware is dedicated to those gears that are widely used, so for the S9 hydro, I don't think many people have that and that explains why most custom fm devs didn't bother to make a custom firmware for it.

I suppose you can use Vnish firmware for the Dual S9 which is basically just the normal S9 firmware but would accept 6 hash boards IIRC, so if thierry4wd can't help you with the S9 hydro you could try Vnisha (Asic.to / AwesomeMiner) you can also reach out to taserz aka asic.to and ask him about it.
3031  Local / منصات التبادل / Re: أنصحكم بإستخدام dydx و تجريب حضكم on: December 27, 2020, 01:33:32 PM
المنصة هي منصة أمريكية و لم أكن أعلم تماما بمتل هذا الأمر...و أعتقد أنه معك حق إذا كانت هته المعطيات صحيحة
أنصحك بإعادة التجريب فربما كان هناك خطأ ما لما حاولت في المرة الأولى أخي لأن الأمر أدهشني في الحقيقة
فحتى المنصات المركزية متل كوينباس و كراكن تسمح لك بعلى الأقل بالتصفح فيها

https://dydx.exchange/


لقد قمت بالمحاولة مجددا وتحصلت على نفس الخطاء, تأكدت ايضا ان الحظر ليس على السيرفر المضيف يعني الحظر مباشرة من المنصة نفسها, مما يعني ان هده المنصة تخضع لقوانين مالية معينة تخص الولايات المتحدة التي تضع بلدي في قائمة العقوبات بالنسبة للامور الاقتصادية, وكل هدا يشير الى ان المنصة لا تمث باي صلة لكونها منصة لامركزية.

مع العلم انه من الممكن ان يتم حظرك من الوصول لمنصة لامركزية في حال ان مقدم الخدمة او السيرفر موجود في امريكيا وكانت هناك عقوبات تشمل الانترنت حيث ان Ip addresses معينة خاصة ببلدك تكون محظورة وهدا امر طبيعي, اما هده المنصة فهي تقوم بالحظر مباشرة.
3032  Local / النقاشات الأخرى / Re: زيادة في انتحال في قسم العربي on: December 27, 2020, 12:21:28 PM
حسب كلامك فليس هناك أي آلية لسحب نقاط الجدارة من الأعضاء المحضورين و أعتقد أن هذا غريب...في هته الحالة يجب علينا أن نقدم طلب لمديري المنتدى لكي يسحبو نقاط الجدارة من الأعضاء المحضورين و أعتقد أنهم لم يغفلو هذا و لديهم أو بإمكانهم أن يسحبو النقاط من الأعضاء المحضورين بسهولة

بكل تأكيد يوجد طريقة وهي ممكنة بتدخل Admin المنتدى فقط, يمكنه الغاء تلك النقاط او اعادتها لمن ارسلها او تحويلها لمصادر نقاط الجدارة ولكن انا متأكد بنسبة 100% ان هدا لن يحدث فالادمن يتجنب التدخل المباشر في سير العمليات داخل المنتدى بشكل كبير فهو يريد من الاعضاء ان يتصرفو بما هوا متاح له, والدليل على هدا انه عندما اصتدم مع احد الاعضاء بخصوص نظام الثقة لم يقم بحضره وقام بارسال رسائل لاعضاء الثقة الافتراضية يطلب منا ان نقوم بالتصويت ضد ذلك العضو, يعني انه استخدم نظام الرسائل المتاح للجميع بالرغم من انه يمكن ان يزيل  ذلك العضو من الثقة الافتراضية او من المنتدى للابد بنقرة زر واحدة.
3033  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Bitmain Introduces the S19 and S19 Pro on: December 27, 2020, 02:27:52 AM
What has changed? strange enough, I wanted to try if I could pay with BTC so I created a dummy order, and to my surprise, I get an error message that says:

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Sorry, your account has error. You can't make a purchase. If you have any questions, please email us at xxxx@bitmain.com

Seems like they blocked my account or something, since it's unlikely that I will ever buy from them again, it doesn't really matter.

Sorry I couldn't confirm the payment methods because that error shows up before the payment page.
3034  Local / منصات التبادل / Re: أنصحكم بإستخدام dydx و تجريب حضكم on: December 27, 2020, 01:00:15 AM
هده المنصة من المفترض ان تكون منصة لامركزية غير خاضعة لاي قوانين, هل هدا صحيح؟

طبعا يبدو ان الوضع مخالف تماما لانني عندا قيامي بالدخول على هده المنصة يتم اتستقبالي ب

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Sorry, dYdX is not available in your location.

على عكس Uniswap وغيرها من المنصات الامركزية, لا اريد ان اتحيز لكن لا ارى اي مستقبل لهده المنصة بناء على المعطيات التي امامي.
3035  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: It is 2020 time for a new diff thread. on: December 26, 2020, 11:58:43 PM
, it's hovering around -0.9%. Considering Christmas and New Years Eve it's highly unlikely that some mining farm will suddenly bring to live a batch of 10k miners in the next epoch, so, another 14 days of happy mining?!?

I'd say the majority of miners who matter don't really care about any of that, so New Year or not, they couldn't be bothered, however, I do agree that we are likely going have another good epoch simply because not much gears are getting delivered in the coming a few days.

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So, where the * is that gear?

They start shipping in January, all the way to July, the 8000 mining gear order from Riot will be done in April, with 2k miners every month.

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I'm pretty sure a lot of people would love to hear it's on the bottom of the ocean Grin

Couldn't agree more  Grin.

With that being said, it's probably the last few weeks of happy mining, the past couple of weeks have been so kind to us miners, I'd guess nobody expected the profitability in fiat would be this much.
3036  Local / العربية (Arabic) / Re: مسابقة Chipmixer 7 on: December 25, 2020, 11:43:10 PM
كنت ساطلب ان يتم اضافة بعض الاحصائيات للموضوع عن معدل الزمن المستغرق لايجاد حل للبلوك حسب الصعوبة و عدد الاحتمالات الممكنة و غيرها... لكن سيكون ذلك صعب لان العمل يتم بشكل يدوي و لا يمكن تحديد السرعة بشكل دقيق.

لهدا السبب قمت بسؤالكم ان كنتم توقفتم عن المحاولة ام لا, فانا الان لايمكنني ان اعرف هل الصعوبة ب 0000 تعتبر فعلا "صعبة" وتحتاج الى التسهيل ام انه لم يتم اجاد الهاش فقط لانكم اوقفتم التعدين, طبعا في العالم الحقيقي للتعدين البلوك تشين للا يهمه كل هدا فحتى لو توقف المعدنين لمدة يوم كامل وعادو بعدها ليجدو الهاش خلال دقيقة واحدة من بداية المحاولة سوف يتم احتساب زمن البلوك يوم + دقيقة, اما فيما يخص المسابقة فالامر اكثر تعقيدا.

ولكن بما انك سئلت فاليك الاجابة, احتماليات ال hashing تنطوي تحت Geometric distribution اعتقد انه يعرف ب" التوزيع الهندسي" يمكن القراءة عنه اكثر هنا https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution

اما بالملخص المفيد, فأنه نظرا لانن الهاش يتعامل ب hexdecimal فان اجمالي الخيارات لكل خانة هي 1 من 16 ( 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F) يعني انه لتحصل على هاش يبدا بصفر واحدة فتحتاج في المتوسط 16 محاولة وفرصت كل محاولة هي 1\16.

لتجد هاش يبدا ب 00 يعني انك تحتاج لي 16*16 = 256 محاولة
لتجد هاش يبدا ب 000 تحتاج الى 16*16*16 = 4,096
لتجد هاش يبدا بي 0000 تختاح الى 16*16*16*16 = 65,536 محاولة

طبعا هدا بافتراض ان الحظ تم استبعداه, يعني ممكن تجدها في 10 محاولات وممكن مليار محاولة ولاتجد شي.
 
3037  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Bitmain Introduces the S19 and S19 Pro on: December 25, 2020, 09:17:34 PM
it so stupid that they are pushing to August for buyers like us, yet there are companies getting deals for thousands of miners and Bitmain has no issue filling those orders.... or is that why the normal buyer has to wait so long?

Everyone prefers bulk sales, no?

Riot Blockchain alone has 8000 S19pro in orders which bitmain has to deliver by April of 2021, they agreed on 2000 miner monthly, and the whole world seems to be facing chips shorage, so even if Bimain worked twice as hard, I don't think they will be able to manufacture any more gears that what they already need to send out, so after all, maybe paying for a gear that is planned to be delivered 8 months laters isn't going to be a terrible idea when it's already August 2021 and we are looking back into the past, with that being said, I will NEVER order a gear with that amount of time I have to wait.
3038  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: one hashboard is 91 Degree on: December 25, 2020, 07:49:52 PM
It's chain 1, aka the middle chain that is throwing the over temp error, it's usual for the middle board to run slightly warmer, but not as hot as it does in your miner, I also noticed that the variance in temperature based on the sensor location is HUGE, even on the other two chains, your temps are all over the place.

Hot, Cold, Hot, Cold, and the fans are spinning at over 6000rpm which is just about that maximum, I believe that something is blocking the overflow of the bottom part of the miner, the 4 sensors are located near the 4 corners, so you have 2 on the upper side and 2 on the lower side, and since ALL of the 12 sensors show the same readings, it looks like something is keeping the air follow too low on one of the sides.
3039  Local / العربية (Arabic) / Re: مسابقة Chipmixer 7 on: December 24, 2020, 06:10:29 PM
هل لازال الجميع يحاول حل هدا الهاش بصعوبة 0000 ؟


Code:
0001617ff27275716944127faf4fc7a506bd8be6885c4dc2462022d46c5bee8aaa

ارجو منك ابلاغي لكي نعيد تقيم الموقف فأنا للاسف لااعرف ان كان احد يحاول ايجاد هدا البلوك ام ان الجميع قد استتسلمو.
3040  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Mining hardware on: December 24, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
Now i have asked a friend of mine and it is 13.55 euro cents above 2500kwh , so that means in fact the price for kwh in dolars it is 0.012$. B

At that power rate, I would just forget about mining altogether.

... thank you for the s17 tip, but what do you sugest like equipment then?

MicroBt and Avalon gears are much more robust, also the 19 series (S19 and S19 pro) are of much better quality, basically, any gear you find will be better than those 17 series and the S9k, you can't buy a worse set of gears even if you intend to.
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