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3041  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 04:52:04 PM
And in those cases where people end up with nothing, those people die off.  What's the big deal?

Well, most people on earth realize that our society can only exist if we take care of everyone.
We are social animals and thus feel compassion for others because everyone knows that there is a good chance that they themselfs may need help at some point.
If everyone thought like you then we would not live in this relatively nice and stable world.
It would be dog eat dog and only assholes would survive.
Now, would you want to live in a world composed primarily out of assholes or is it enough for you to look in the mirror in the morning?

I don't see how society depends on taking care of EVERYONE.  Please elaborate.

You misunderstand me.

I do not believe individuals should be FORCED to help other individuals.  I believe they should do it out of the kindness of their heart.  I make donations to local organizations and give to individuals to help them out.  Especially if a family member or friend needs some help, I give it to them.  I make donations to charities that help people in other countries too.

But I do NOT believe in using tax dollars to "help" people.  It should be voluntary.  And yes, some people need to die off to avoid being too much of a burden on the people.  I'm not trying to be an asshole, that's just reality.

Let me ask you this - how much is it worth paying, out of taxpayer dollars, to save a person's life?  $5?  $10?  $1,000?  $1M?  $100M?  Think about it...

Well, the problem is that you say these things standing on the shoulders of society.
A lot of people that you don't care about helped the world get to this place.
Most charities are there to help wealthy people get rid of their guilt and are actually artrociously inefficient.

In our current society noone has to die because they are a burden. There is enough room to take care of these people.

The point is also that the world economy turned for the better when we started to take care of people as an integral part of society.
As i said before, we are social animals so once you start this kind of stratification there is no end.
Paris Hilton would propably shit on your head whenever she felt like because, you know, she is clearly the better human because she is in a better position than you. What would be her motivation to not put a bullet in your sorry head for not being as successfull in society as you?
So you have to realise that there are even greater assholes than you and they would think the same way about you as you about the people you want to leave for dead.

Fortunately this is not how most people think and actually most people realize we need each other. Economy is highly connected.
But what's even more crucial is that genetics are highly connected.
The whole pure genes/perfect human thing is a myth.
In our daily life we as a species completely fail at judging people on this level of connectedness altho it plays a major role in social dynamics.

If you want to look at humanity strictly as a tool for creating an economy then you can swap them out like light bulbs. But that is a groce oversimplification as the economy has a lot of symbiotic caracteristics that can only happen in these highly connected meshes of social relations.
A single idea from a disabled person can start a whole industry.

So the very least i can say is that things are not so simple that you can just say "let them die".
Of course you can have your opinion but i'm just telling you that it is not a healthy one for society.
What do you think will happen to the mental health of people that are for some reason near to the survival barrier? They will live under constant stress and think about their survival all the time. These people will have a much harder time participating in society because of the angst that may not have any food the next day.

'let them die' is just a very crude and uneducated opinion.
You make a lot of bold assumptions here...

If by "standing on the shoulders of society", you mean I am wealthy, you are completely wrong.  I have a net worth in the neighborhood of n negative $50k.

I agree charities are inefficient.  You are saying the government IS?   Cheesy

Citation needed for the economy turning better after "caring for each other" (as if that wasn't happening before among family/friends, as it should be?)

I never said anything about success or about people putting bullets in another person's head - not sure where you pulled that from.

I never said anything about perfect genes.

I never said that a disabled person couldn't change the world.

Likely, someone who is "near the survival barrier" would have friends and family to live with and take care of them, or charities/organizations that take care of people in homes dedicated to the purpose.  That's how society has worked for so long, why can it not still work that way today?

You are acting like I am saying anyone who isn't healthy should be shot to death.  I do not understand that, because it is not what I am saying at all.  I am simply saying that people should not be supported by the government.  People should be supported by their friends, family, and/or charities.
3042  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Bookkeeping software? on: October 19, 2012, 04:36:49 PM

How would you want exchange rate data to be calculated?  Grab the exchange rate for each transaction on the date/time it happens, or just view all transactions at current value?

How about both?
Should be possible..!
3043  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 04:35:38 PM
I don't understand... how would you tax people on sales based on income levels?  That doesn't make any sense... why not just tax them based on income levels to begin with?

Because savings shouldn't be taxed, at least not on an individual basis. This happens with inflation or demurrage, or in case of bitcoin: NONE!

And why shouldn't savings be taxed?
Because I don't think the state has any business issuing money, or supplying money or even have information on the amount of money I own. The system I am proposing would even work with bitcoin, see the colored coins concept.

To be honest I'm not fond of the idea of tying it to the accumulated wealth (not income, but it is affected), I find the system where only consumption is taxed by the amount over time as of demising returns much more beautiful.
Income tax != savings tax.

And I have no idea what you were trying to say with your second paragraph.
3044  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Bookkeeping software? on: October 19, 2012, 04:31:31 PM
I've just gotten started doing business in bitcoins and I'm curious what solutions other bitcoin businesses use for bookkeeping.

As a small (micro) business I need to keep expenses infinitesimal. Is there any bookkeeping software or website that can handle btc and dynamically import exchange rate data? Anything that offers an API extensible enough to add this?
I built an accounting system in Excel for one of my University classes a few years back... certainly, the current BTC rate would be easy to grab, so I wonder how easy it would be to adapt the rest of the spreadsheet for use with BTC?

How would you want exchange rate data to be calculated?  Grab the exchange rate for each transaction on the date/time it happens, or just view all transactions at current value?
3045  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do any of you guys have any experience using AMD RAMDisk? on: October 19, 2012, 04:28:14 PM
Crap... Even for a mining rig only?
For a mining rig, sure.  It'd be slow to start up, but if it's a mining rig, who cares?
3046  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do any of you guys have any experience using AMD RAMDisk? on: October 19, 2012, 04:25:23 PM
Yeah you're probably right. Next choice is a flash drive.


Any experience with Windows 7 on a flash drive?
It would be horribly, horribly slow.

30MB/s max read/write speed, but often much less than that.  Poor IOPS (I think worse than traditional HDD).  Really, if you want to try that, just get an SSD.  It's the same thing, but made to hold things like OS's.
3047  Other / Politics & Society / Re: WTC Survivor Discusses 9/11 on: October 19, 2012, 04:24:03 PM
For all the conspiracy theorists out there...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/76051207/9_11_Conspiracy.avi
3048  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do any of you guys have any experience using AMD RAMDisk? on: October 19, 2012, 04:21:04 PM
Is there any possibility of running Windows 7 off of your Ram only?

No.  As soon as you restart, you'd have to reinstall Windows.  And I'm pretty sure there's at least one restart involved in the Windows setup process to begin with...
3049  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 04:19:45 PM
I don't understand... how would you tax people on sales based on income levels?  That doesn't make any sense... why not just tax them based on income levels to begin with?

Because savings shouldn't be taxed, at least not on an individual basis. This happens with inflation or demurrage, or in case of bitcoin: NONE!

And why shouldn't savings be taxed?
3050  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 04:13:47 PM
You are not arguing about it either?  
Even while income taxes are considered illegal and were only implemented during draconian periods and kept. Even while property taxes are a relic out of pre-republic times.
Even while profit taxes applied selectively to those who aren't in with the cronies.
It would equate to the rich and the wealthy paying a smaller percentage of their income in taxes vs the middle class and poor.  Doesn't make much sense to me.

I really don't care what the history of various taxes are.  Just because income taxes were only implemented during draconian periods doesn't mean they are a bad way to tax people.

Again I suggested taxing wealthy people higher than the middle class and a negative tax for the poor. The extent could be governed by either by the amount of total consumption (including employing people and what is now usually written of as "investment") or the accumulative wealth (just add).
And only because rich people consume less of their total wealth doesn't mean they aren't still the biggest consumers per person, either way they would still pay the highest taxes in absolute value.

The reason why I am so argumentative about this is that is a simple system which allows for a reduction of bureaucracy otherwise not archive able.
I don't understand... how would you tax people on sales based on income levels?  That doesn't make any sense... why not just tax them based on income levels to begin with?
3051  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 04:12:04 PM
And in those cases where people end up with nothing, those people die off.  What's the big deal?

Well, most people on earth realize that our society can only exist if we take care of everyone.
We are social animals and thus feel compassion for others because everyone knows that there is a good chance that they themselfs may need help at some point.
If everyone thought like you then we would not live in this relatively nice and stable world.
It would be dog eat dog and only assholes would survive.
Now, would you want to live in a world composed primarily out of assholes or is it enough for you to look in the mirror in the morning?

I don't see how society depends on taking care of EVERYONE.  Please elaborate.

You misunderstand me.

I do not believe individuals should be FORCED to help other individuals.  I believe they should do it out of the kindness of their heart.  I make donations to local organizations and give to individuals to help them out.  Especially if a family member or friend needs some help, I give it to them.  I make donations to charities that help people in other countries too.

But I do NOT believe in using tax dollars to "help" people.  It should be voluntary.  And yes, some people need to die off to avoid being too much of a burden on the people.  I'm not trying to be an asshole, that's just reality.

Let me ask you this - how much is it worth paying, out of taxpayer dollars, to save a person's life?  $5?  $10?  $1,000?  $1M?  $100M?  Think about it...
3052  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 03:48:29 PM
Rich people have tend to spend a smaller proportion of their income than poor people (its called the marginal propensity to consume). Presumably because the poor people can't afford to save...

Anyway, by taxing the rich and giving to the poor, you are taking money from people who only spend say 70% of their income to give to people who spend 99% of their income. That is going to have the effect of increasing consumption. Western economies are heavily dependent on consumer spending, so increasing consumption increases economic growth. It's probably not the only factor, but it might contribute to it.
That's actually some pretty solid reasoning...

Still not convinced that taxing only consumption instead of income, profit, property and consumption is a good thing?
Yes, I am still not convinced.

You are not arguing about it either?  
Even while income taxes are considered illegal and were only implemented during draconian periods and kept. Even while property taxes are a relic out of pre-republic times.
Even while profit taxes applied selectively to those who aren't in with the cronies.
It would equate to the rich and the wealthy paying a smaller percentage of their income in taxes vs the middle class and poor.  Doesn't make much sense to me.

I really don't care what the history of various taxes are.  Just because income taxes were only implemented during draconian periods doesn't mean they are a bad way to tax people.
3053  Other / Meta / Re: BitcoinTalk's biggest issue... on: October 19, 2012, 03:41:55 PM
Do you have a better forum?
3054  Economy / Economics / Re: Two Hundred Billion Pennies on: October 19, 2012, 03:30:57 PM
I estimate (roughly) that a dozen 5-gallon buckets means about a $5000 profit (about $.015 per penny). I seems like a lot of money, but what about the amount of time spent buying and sorting all those coins. I'm guessing it isn't a very high-paying job.
Good point!  I suppose many people probably feel like they'll be worth more in the future, but if that's the case, why not buy copper directly?

I estimate (roughly) that a dozen 5-gallon buckets means about a $5000 profit (about $.015 per penny). I seems like a lot of money, but what about the amount of time spent buying and sorting all those coins. I'm guessing it isn't a very high-paying job.

true.. having to collect all the coins sort em out.. if you decide to melt em you need propane or some type of fuel.. some cement to make a foundry furnace (or buy one  Tongue).  A lot of work for what its worth.  To sell copper over here you need to show your ID and give a fingerprint but that rarely happens from what I am told.. and I think it only applies to copper wire and pipe not ingots.  Then good luck finding a place that will give you a good price per pound. I have met a lot of people talking about doing this but have yet to hear one of them attempting it.
Why would you melt them?  Just leave them in coin form and sell them that way, same as everyone does with silver and gold coins.

currently a copper penny is worth.. a penny.
145 pennies is roughly a pound (could be wrong just googled it)
thats $1.45

1lb of copper on kitco says 3.70.

the copper its made from is worth more than the penny.

as far as I know most scrap yards are not going to accept a bucket full of pennies but who knows.

if your talking about the collector aspect to it then ya keep em.

who knows copper pennies could be the next rare american eagle coin (highly doubtful with the amount of copper pennies in circulation)

Eh?

People know the copper is worth more than the penny.  You don't have to smelt it down for them to see that value.  Take a look at eBay - people are buying copper pennies for far more than they are worth, according to you!
3055  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 03:29:13 PM
Rich people have tend to spend a smaller proportion of their income than poor people (its called the marginal propensity to consume). Presumably because the poor people can't afford to save...

Anyway, by taxing the rich and giving to the poor, you are taking money from people who only spend say 70% of their income to give to people who spend 99% of their income. That is going to have the effect of increasing consumption. Western economies are heavily dependent on consumer spending, so increasing consumption increases economic growth. It's probably not the only factor, but it might contribute to it.
That's actually some pretty solid reasoning...

Still not convinced that taxing only consumption instead of income, profit, property and consumption is a good thing?
Yes, I am still not convinced.
3056  Other / Off-topic / Re: Nefario ran his payment script twice on: October 19, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
Anyone who doesn't return coins that do not belong to them deserves a scammer tag.  It's theft, plain and simple.

How do you even know that the coins do not belong to them? Maybe Dr. Nefario is just paying double as an apology to former users of Good Luck Bitcoin Special Entity. I've seen this happen before in my Japanese Animes.
I don't know that the coins do not belong to them.  Hence the reason I qualified my statement with "that do not belong to them".
3057  Economy / Economics / Re: When I hear "people should spend all of their money" instead of saving... on: October 19, 2012, 03:26:14 PM
When I hear a statist, keynesian economist talking about how people from all walks of life shouldn't save their money and how they should spend their paychecks completely, I think of natural disasters, economic collapses or other personal crises and how people will be running towards the government for assistance. Instead of using their own means to recover, they will depend on a higher power to get back up again.

To me, the whole notion of not saving money is very authoritarian. To say people shouldn't prepare and save is like saying every man is the government's bitch and your survival is dependent on their ability to bring you up again. It implies the government can never fail, which is clearly wrong.

Just my 2 cents.

As for the effectiveness of depending on the government when shit happens, that's an entirely different debate that could be discussed here.

My point is hoarding has its purpose: Stored wealth is supposed to be your safety net when times are bad. At the very least, it's mine. I don't think of going on welfare or to the food bank when I lose my job among other things. I think of my own Plan B. I believe you should consider doing the same.
I very much agree.  It's time people wake up and take responsibility for themselves and their own financial situations.
3058  Economy / Economics / Re: Why do higher taxes on the rich historically correlate to higher economic growth on: October 19, 2012, 03:23:29 PM
Rich people have tend to spend a smaller proportion of their income than poor people (its called the marginal propensity to consume). Presumably because the poor people can't afford to save...

Anyway, by taxing the rich and giving to the poor, you are taking money from people who only spend say 70% of their income to give to people who spend 99% of their income. That is going to have the effect of increasing consumption. Western economies are heavily dependent on consumer spending, so increasing consumption increases economic growth. It's probably not the only factor, but it might contribute to it.
That's actually some pretty solid reasoning...
3059  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: bitfloor needs your help! on: October 19, 2012, 03:15:34 PM
Here's the latest response I got:

Quote
There are no updates on the BTC on hold yet.

cheers,
~Roman

3060  Other / Off-topic / Re: Nefario ran his payment script twice on: October 19, 2012, 05:54:55 AM
Anyone who doesn't return coins that do not belong to them deserves a scammer tag.  It's theft, plain and simple.
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