I'm glad some people at MS research are interested in Bitcoin but Satoshi has a mental muscle the rest of us can only wish for. My respect for the idea and initial implementation, but Satoshi (whoever he/they are) missed many things. One thing they missed is that every monetary system is an economy of its own and that every economy is based upon a system of incentives. Transaction fees and how they are defined is one weak spot in bitcoin protocol! And this is a fundamental question. |
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Meh, you dont usually vote laws, you vote for representatives. We do! It is called referendum (aka plebiscite). A referendum (also known as a plebiscite or a vote on a ballot question) is a direct vote in which an entire electorate is asked to either accept or reject a particular proposal. This may result in the adoption of a new constitution, a constitutional amendment, a law, the recall of an elected official or simply a specific government policy. It is a form of direct democracy. Voting for representatives is a form of centralization. Decentralization means direct democracy. Never forget, bitcoin is about decentralization not centralization! |
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I am more worried about the no-incentive for clients than with the dis-incentive for miners. I'm worried by my own observations too. People start the bitcoin client if they have to send/receive bitcoins and once recent blocks are downloaded they stop and exit. Our society is based on a voting system, one man one vote. No one should be encourage to purchase votes. Unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening with pool mining. Mining pools are incentivised to purchase workers' votes. Bitcoin is hostage of a dozen mining pools. If changes in the bitcoin protocol need to be made that will discourage pool mining, how would you convince mining pools to assist you do something that is against their interest? |
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it is about the seller having every reason to ensure that the "money" used to buy his goods is real and not already spent elsewhere thus his motivation to broadcast the tx as widely as possible as soon as possible with or w/o a fee attached in order to get the tx verified into his receiving address.
It is just the same with the buyer... I'll paraphrase your above mentioned statement: it is about the buyer having every reason to ensure that the "goods" he purchased are under his ownership and not already purchased by someone else thus his motivation to broadcast the tx as widely as possible as soon as possible with or w/o a fee attached in order to get the tx verified and included into the block chain. This is why the buyer and the seller have exactly the same interest broadcasting the tx they have made! |
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No, what I'm saying is that the recipient of bitcoins has an incentive to get that transaction into the block chain because that improves the marketability of those bitcoins. This is just another way of saying that bitcoins are more precious than goods purchased with those bitcoins. What about the "marketability" of goods purchased with bitcoins? |
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As Mike Hearn points out, it is the recipient of bitcoins that has an incentive for a transaction to be included in a block…the sender doesn't care. A transaction is a transaction if only it is included in the block chain. All the rest is just expressed intention for a transaction... What you basically say is that the seller is more interested in a transaction than the buyer?! Sorry, I can't agree. |
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Of course, this takes us a little bit further from the purist "zero trust" design that Satoshi was aiming for. Satoshi was aiming at CPU power, not GPU power! Every monetary system not only serves real economy but is an economy of its own. This is valid for the bitcoin network as well. Giving the control in the hands of a dozen of mining pools is not different to giving the control of current fiat money monetary system in the hands of a dozen bank cartels. The bitcoin protocol should be changed to discourage pool mining! Never forget, bitcoin is about decentralization not centralization! |
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I suppose this argument would be equivalent to saying in BitTorrent, that there is "no incentive" for people to seed files This is exactly what my wife is doing. She stops seeding to save bandwidth and to increase download speed. therefore, eventually nobody will seed files and that BitTorrent will soon fail. The incentive for bittorrent is getting copyrighted stuff for free. This why it won't fail. However, this is not the case with bicoin network! |
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Let me correct you... KGB official defector explains plan unfolding in America right now 25 years ago. |
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I have registered with your registration form but will pay registration ticket at the conference registration desk in CITY Conference Center or Panorama Hotel. |
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Currency in the ripple system is tied to reputation through indebtedness. Contractual obligation of works yet to be produced. Works already performed are forms of value that require some type of payment through a monetary-based system. Valuation does not always have to be monetary, hence barter systems and black market off-the-books IOUs. Two balances of debt and credit create currency to drive works and the contracts that support future works. Other forms of value would be memes and the transcendent nature of cooperative systems.
Bitcoin is an adaptation of a new meme applied to a highly competitive system - this transformation alone is valuable but still just one anchor of the triangle which will push all weaker systems aside. The other forms of valuation are under-utilized and ready to be exploited wholesale. Any guess as to what they are?
Ideas and the valuation of ideas is what the next anchor is. A simple app designed to foster real grouping, devoid of FUD and their ilk through a WoT that is fail-safe. Diaspora* is set to be one such engine, likely to require time and effort. Everyone is searching for that idea that infiltrates society at a deep level akin to facebook/myspace/aol/MSNMessenger which all grandmas will use and delight in. I am working on mine and I hope everyone involved in Bitcoin is thinking up that next killer app to compliment what has already been created here. Ripple/frecoin/OT server/blindbitcoin/TOR networks/MESH nets are here to help what is currently built and supports the anchor. The next anchor point is just over the horizon, possibly to come from someone involved in these meme-changing projects.
FF
I can hardly follow your thoughts, sir. You'd better stick to KISS principle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principleRipple and ripple like payment systems can be a perfect addition to bitcoin. A payment system that is based on "trust-no-one" principal (like bitcoin) is terribly expensive to serve everyday commercial transactions and can not compete with current fiat money in terms of efficiency. It is TRUST that makes payment systems competitive (unfortunately, vulnerable as well). Trust and debt are just the two sides of one and the same coin. Debt is just the name of monetized trust. The problem with current fiat monetary systems is that the "trust-no-one" element is missing entirely and this is why trust can be (and is) abused all down the line leading to mountains of debt. Having said that, IMHO the most promising path to follow is a combination between "trust-no-one" currency like bitcoin and "trust-up-to-a-limit" payment system like ripple where unit of account is bitcoin. All purchases must be processed and booked on the bases of trust and if trading agreement expires or limit of trust (debt limit) is reached before that, all outstanding balances must be cleared via cash settlement (bitcoin transaction). Trying to technically integrate trust in the existing bitcoin chain is a major mistake because this would make bitcoin vulnerable. Both bitcoin block chain and the corresponding ripple block chain that is using bitcoin as unit of account, must be kept strictly separate following dichotomy principle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy |
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I just don't see how it really helps people understand what Bitcoin is really about. You have to tell people something really exists first! Only after that, if they express interest, you can tell them what it is really about. This is exactly what casascius bitcoins are - souvenirs! People just can extract additional value out of the souvenir (if there is a hologram sticker) if they understand what bitcoin is really about. Casascius bitcoins is great idea. Just wondering, however, what would be the 'temptation' level for casascius to 'monetize' all unclaimed private keys and run away with money? |
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+1 I want some too ! Goldplated bars and cascasius coins !
Obviously, casascius has to establish production capacity in Europe.  |
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Do anybody plan to sell Casascius coins on conference? It would be nice to buy few of them without paying overseas post...
Slush I can bring you a few. how many do you want? Bring as much as you can! |
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I would love to invite the CIA or FBI to debate bitcoin! Don't worry, they will be there even without invitation. |
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As I see it, Ripple is only geared towards debt payment, it wouldn't help me much in assessing the safety of buying stuff from an anonymous seller. Debt is equal to trust. It is just another way of saying it. The size of debt is the size of consumed trust! If debt is repaid then trust is restored. If debt has reached the credit line maximum then trust is consumed 100%. Debt and trust are the two sides of one and the same coin! |
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Just like with currencies and dns, a decentralized web of trust would be preferable. Have you looked at the Ripple project and what they are working at recently? http://ripple-project.org/ |
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Memory Dealers is proud to announce that it's acquired the rights to sell the infamous Casascius Physical Bitcoins. Customers can purchase these physical Bitcoins (which have hologram-coded private keys) with credit cards or Paypal. Each coin is worth its face value in BTC and is cast in brass with the special tamper-proof hologram on the back. I understand that currently a bitcoin bar is electroplated with real gold. What if it consists entirely of 999.9 investment grade gold? Thus bars would be bitcoin branded, would be of investment gold and in addition will have hologram-coded private keys of their bitcoin face value! You can cooperate with coinabul.com. |
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