On the other hand, it helps to have auctions that are 'hot', like look at deal dash. You can only bid within 60 sec of an auction close, then it resets to x sec after a bid is placed, that way it is fun. Not 127:5:23 before the auction closes. Things people want also helps, I know that it costs money to buy them, but honestly.
Sorry, we wont be posting any ipads anytime soon lol. My niche in the industry is posting lower value items and introducing the bartering concept. The problem with posting all high valued products is that you get many powerbidders on your site, also everybody wants the product so you have 50 bidders on one auctions resulting in 49 losers. But with lower value products, you have only a few people interested in the item so it's alot easier to have a larger variety of winners without much cost to the site. Big ticket items is why many sites shut down, they auction off products they can't afford, don't make enough money to cover their losses, then cut and run with everyone's money. I definitely would be cautious of any new sites with big ticket items. |
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It's a game the way the a booth on the carnival fairway is a game. Rigged.
The winners are the people running the game and the losers are anyone dumb enough to play.
Does running a business that's only successful by preying on ignorance make you a criminal? No, but you sure come off like a scumbag. If that's the way you want to make money, go ahead. I find it sickening.
You never have to spend one cent/bitcoin to use the site...ever. In fact, the purpose of the site is for bartering. Post items as penny auctions, earn all the credits from the items you posted, and then use those credits to bid on other items. Some users can choose to purchase credits if they don't want to post items but it's not required. But you don't see alot of people other than MokiMarket posting stuff because it's not as easy as people think; in fact I recommend not posting any high value items because you will probably lose money. If the sites not for you that's fine; this thread is just giving users some tips on how to get better use of their credits. My goal with the site is not to continually be posting stuff as penny auctions, but rather have the users posting more and more of the auctions and using the site as a bartering platform. |
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good strategic players do have an advantage in the system over poor players and it's possible to make money in the long run.
The money is coming from somewhere. It's a scam to exploit poor players who don't understand the rules to make 'good players' and the auction site holder money. I'm a capitalist, and I believe those that take the time to learn the rules should be rewarded for their efforts. It's a game of strategy, learn the game and have an advantage. You don't hear poor poker player complaining about the game being a scam. To compared it to poker makes you look silly. In poker knowing the rules isn't sufficient. Someone who knows the rules isn't going to have a +EV against a poker pro. In penny auction there is only the rules. If you are bidding on the same item as someone else who knows the rules then it simply comes down to who blinks (or runs out of bids) first. To pawn this off as anything more than gambling or entertainment makes you look bad. I had interest in your company and playing some auctions for fun (especially Bitcoin related items) however you trying to justify them as some kind of investment leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It feels scammy and get-rich-quick-ish. You lost a potential customer before he made his first bid. My comparison to poker was meant to suggest that they are both skill based game where not everyone has negative expectation. I did not mean to suggest that "knowing the rules" will make you an expert, I was meaning to suggest there are certain informal rules (as i mentioned above) or "tricks of the trade" powerbidders use to get an advantage. It's not an investment; I too think it's ridiculous to say so. I never said that and I'm not trying to say it is. What I'm saying it that it's not a scam; to me a scam suggest everyone is an equal-opportunity loser and that's not the case. Just like poker, good players have an advantage over poor players. There are no 'better" players when purchasing a lottery ticket but there are when playing games like these. I was simply pointing out a few strategies that I thought could help bidders gain an advantage in this thread. |
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You are comparing two very different things. The statistical expected payout of a lottery is pre-definied to be negative, meaning if you play long enough, no matter who you are, you will lose money with absolute certaintly. The same is true w/ penny auctions. No auction house can stay in business long term selling $100 for $99 or less. Thus on average the auction must bring in more than the cost of the item. While one can play "smart" it is much like playing "smart" in Blackjack. You can reduce the negative expectation but it is still a negative expectation. Variance can be fun in the short run but eventually one will reach the long run w/ penny auction and that is negative expectation. I don't think you are going to convince anyone that Penny Auctions are a sold investment. It is a dubious sell. Just like lottery people play them for entertainment, and the chance to score a huge win. First of all I have never said that penny auctions were anything close to an investment, your are absolutely right that is a dubious sell. It's a game, plain and simple. The point I'm trying to make is that penny auctions is a skill based game. Now you happen to be right....most penny auction business don't stay in business long. I would guestimate close to 99% fail. Why? Because penny auctions used to be extremely profitable to site owners, but as bidders learned the game it became more profitable to be a bidder in many cases. http://www.pennyauctionwatch.com/2011/04/over-150-closed-penny-auction-sites-is-the-model-sustainable/ There are no pre-determined odds like a casino. I can't mathematically write down my expected loss or variance like any casino or lottery can. It's an ill-defined problem like poker. And once again, my site allows users to sell items as penny auctions as well, so you can play both sides of the coin. If penny auctions aren't your thing that's cool with me, everybody has their game preferences. I just think it's unfair to attack penny auctions as scams without the facts. How many people do you know just blatantly call bitcoins a ponzi scheme without taking the time to understand what bitcoins are? |
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good strategic players do have an advantage in the system over poor players and it's possible to make money in the long run.
The money is coming from somewhere. It's a scam to exploit poor players who don't understand the rules to make 'good players' and the auction site holder money. I'm a capitalist, and I believe those that take the time to learn the rules should be rewarded for their efforts. It's a game of strategy, learn the game and have an advantage. You don't hear poor poker player complaining about the game being a scam. |
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I disagree. I think it relies on many users not understanding what they are getting in to. Since it's a winner-take-all model, and you can risk an arbitrary amount to win, most bidders are going to lose all their money.
I would never place a single bid on a penny auction site, nor would I advise anyone to do so (just like I don't buy lottery tickets - it's a losing proposition).
You are comparing two very different things. The statistical expected payout of a lottery is pre-definied to be negative, meaning if you play long enough, no matter who you are, you will lose money with absolute certaintly. Penny auctions do not have a pre-determined statistical advantage similar to poker; thus good strategic players do have an advantage in the system over poor players and it's possible to make money in the long run. Also my site allows users to post auctions as well so you can choose to be on either side of the fence, either way a statistical advantage cannot be defined on either side. Are penny auctions for everybody? Of course not, but neither is poker. They are both fun strategic games that some people like to play and other don't. Just because you have bad poker players that consistently lose money doesn't make poker a scam. I think many people prejudge penny auctions in the same way people prejudge bitcoins by just calling it a scam without even considering the concept. |
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Interesting. Any more strategies for winning an auction?
1) If you aim to be earn a crazy power bidder rep, always bid right after someone bids over you, this creates the psychology to the other bidders that they will be losing credits the very moment they press the bid button. 2) Never bid on the main page in the last seconds of an auction as you could easly lose due to simple server delay. So for instance, bid on the direct page of auction: " http://www.mokimarket.com/auction_details/295", and not on index page "mokimarket.com". There is less delay in auction timer on direct page as it's only updating one auctions as opposed to the 12 on the main page. 3) Check out the pennyauctionwatch.com or pennyburners.com forums; there's a large community of bidders on these sites and many will share tips and strategies with you. |
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Penny auctions have garnered a bad rep due to several bad apples that either "shill" bidded auctions (bid on their own products) or simply did not ship items. Similar to bitcoins, many people dismiss the concept as a scam without even considering the potential. I thought i'd write this post to address some of the concerns that were brought up in this forum. First, the penny auction industry has gotten very savvy about identifying sites that shill bid or fail to ship products. The independent site allpennyauctions.com aggregate data from all the major penny auction in the industry, it collect data on usernames who are bidding, how many sites they are registered on, who's winning, etc. It's very easy to determine which sites have bots as there are often a few winners that just so happen to only be registered on one site; also sites that fail to ship can never survive in the penny auction industry as bidder will instantly report them and they get bad stats. Even though we track our own feedback rating on our site, you can also check out http://www.allpennyauctions.com/site/MokiMarket.com/ for an independent analysis of my site. Secondly, penny auctions is not a scam but rather a skilled based strategy game similar to poker. There a users that consistenly saves lots of money on penny auction sites and there are several well known strategies in the industry. I'll mention a few here: 1) Never bid on an auction with more than a minute remaining: Chances are high that you will be outbid so you are wasting bids 2) Chose an intimidating username: most powerbidder have names like "idontquit" or "neverendingbids" as a tactic to scare bidders from bidding on items 3) Earn a reputation: This is a very balsy strategy, but many powerbidders are willing to bid up a $20 gift card to $1000 bucks if they have to just to establish a reputation as a crazy bidder that will never stop bidding on an item they set their sites on. Once they have this reputation, other bidders simply avoid bidding on auctions that these users bid on and they get even better deals on products 4) Bid on new sites: This is also a risky strategy as many new sites are known to not ship items and shill bid on their auctions. However, new and honest penny auction sites will be losing money because they do not yet have a userbase large enough to cover the cost of their items. Many powerbidders will completely take over a new penny auction site, winning everything. This has become such a big problem and many sites have started to limit the number of wins you can have on a site in a month. Hopefully this helps address some of the concerns. Register on Mokimarket.com and get free credits with coupon code "bitcoin". It's completely risk free and you could win some great deals! |
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Neat. How much time is added to the timer with each bid?
10 seconds when less than 1 minute remaining on auctions; you can create your own auctions for free as well. |
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Bitcoin Block Explorer has offered RSS feeds for a long time. Like this: http://blockexplorer.com/rssa/1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28.xmlThere are several RSS-to-email services you can use if you want an email instead. For market data, it would be pretty easy to set up an RSS interface to the Bitcoin Charts Markets API. I'd write one (but not host it) for 50 BTC. Nice, thanks for the post! |
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Auction for 25 Casascius bitcoins, pretty cool to watch  |
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One thing I realized from my .1 free bitcoin promotion of mokimarket.com is that this marketing strategy has great potential to help sites get users to test it out.
If your willing to pay google $1 just to get someone to look at your site; why not cut out the middleman and pay .1 or .2 bitcoins to get user to not just look at your site, but also register and test out your site.
Might be cool to add a new forum in bitcointalk that is solely for getting users to sign up for new website in exchange for microbitcoins payment. Users could easily earn several bitcoins every day just by signing up and registering for new bitcoin friendly sites.
What do you guys think?
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Congratulations guys you just discovered the "lottery"
Anyone that has put any effort in winning (5-10 bucks) something on my site has; you won't find any other penny auction sites offering low value products because they know that there may be only 3-4 people interested in that item and they can't get bidding wars going. That's why the big sites post ipads and iphone because everybody and their grandma want's one so you are guaranteed to have 100s of losers. My site operates as a bartering exchange, post items you dont want, earn credits to bid on items you do want. You may pay 50 credits for 5000 credits; it's all about the strategy you use. For instance, most "professional" bidders won't waste bidding on items with more than a minute left. High chance of just wasting bids on items more than a day out. There are also many other strategies bidders use; but it is about strategy and not luck. |
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I don't think any of what I am purposing would alienate your existing user base.
You can continue to sell them bitcents to use on your auctions with paypal or CC just like you do now.
It would however make it MUCH more worth while for sellers to sell on your site.
As someone who is considering listing all sorts of high end electronics on your site,
I can tell you that I would be MUCH more inclined to do this if I were to be paid in Bitcents directly without having to
spend time finding someone to trade credits for Bitcoins with.
I understand that it is possible in theory to do the exchange, but it is an extra step with no benefit.
Everyone would be served better by using bitcents directly.
There also the cash in-cash out problem. For instance, we give users 100 credits for a paypal payment of $1, even though we only receive $0.90 cents of that. This % fee varies depending on which credit pack is purchased. Most payments we recieve are very small like this so if a user want's to cash out; we would have to charge at a minimum a 10% withdraw fee just to great even, and thats not including free credits with registration and coupon codes bids. I'm willing to test out this idea though, I will ensure that the site will cash you out personally as an OTC deal for your credits; we will just have to agree upon an exchange rate of credits to bitcoins. |
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I really don't get this site.
It's a gambling site more than a market/auction? A mixture of the two?
Basically a consumer could run around clicking attempting to get stuff, and if they're not lucky - their account dwindles for no return?
Couldn't this site be gamed by some fancy scripts which click at the last instant?
I suppose I could take advantage of the free offer to try it out, which might help me understand it..
Just browsing - I get a strong impression of ponzi-schemes and gambling :/
If there are as the site says 'often huge savings off retail value' - yet the merchant gets money even from non-winning bidders - then this money is in effect being siphoned off users who aren't 'good at' or 'lucky' using the site??
You do raise very valid points, hopefully I can address them... Penny auctions are not gambling, it's a strategy game; there are many hardcore PA bidders that are very good at getting deals on PA sites. And there are often huge savings off retail value; take a look at my ended auctions to get a feel for how much is usually spent on bids, and how much winners paid in total for products: http://www.mokimarket.com/ended_auctions.htmlAnd you are correct, many sites come coded with so-called "shill bidders", which are basically robots that bid up prices. Those sites never last long because noone ever wins anything, and in the end if you dont have winners, your customers dry up. I have plenty of different winners all the time, some are respected members on this site. Check out this independent site that tracks stats on all PA sites: http://www.allpennyauctions.com/site/MokiMarket.com/The industry reality is that most new and honest PA sites, like mine, lose money on items we post because we don't have many users and you have to build up a reputation for no shill bidding and shipment of items. So it's sorta like bitcoin; early adopters gets ridiculous bargains as the reward for trying out a new site. I've sold bitcoins and $25 gift cards on my site for a few pennies. Also, unlike other penny auction sites, my site also allows users to create their own penny auctions for free. My ultimate goal is to create a bartering community where you can post items, earn credits from auctions you post and use those credits to bid on other items or sell your credits to other users in the community. It doesn't cost anything at all to simply test out so you have nothing to lose. Really, you really don't need any money at all, ever to use the site, you can easily post something to sell for free as a penny auctions and earn credits to bid on other items. |
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The major problem I see, is currently most of my 'base' are traditional Penny Auction bidders from sites like pennyauctionwatch.com and thebidlounge.com. Many are unfamiliar with the bitcoin system but are quite comfortable with penny auctions and sites like mine; bitcoins users, understandably, seem to be more skeptical of pa sites and view them as scams. So I wouldn't want to make major changes that alienates my base! Also, isn't this more of just a semantics change? I mean theoretically, you could post an item and earn 1000 credits worth $10. With enough bitcoins users on the site; you could then sell the credits in our forum marketplace http://www.mokimarket.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8 for let's say 5 BTC and do an OTC transfer with another user. I definitely agree that getting users to the site right now is the most important thing. |
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