That is absolutely absurd. I'm just shocked at all the unbelievably stupid people who keep touting their "wow, it will pay off in 2 weeks! I'm gonna be rich!" crap. I thought people in the bitcoin community would be cautious and smart. The rate is 50 (well 25) BTC per block and everyone has to share that. So for like 50% of all miners switching to ASICs and all claim they're going to get rich off those amazing speed numbers, someone has to let them know that they're dreaming and remind them how the bitcoin protocol works. The only people making money are the mega-sketchy jerks over at Butterfly Labs, which is run by a scam-participant asshole. WTF is wrong with everyone?! It really makes bitcoin look bad and makes people want to leave it behind when some get rich quick scheme doesn't work out as well as they hoped. I guess a slap in the face with some cold, hard reality it better now than later. I have no GPU miners at the moment, no ASIC pre-orders, and no interest in an ASIC pre-order if I'm not guaranteed to get it earlier than most people, and actually I have almost no bitcoins either at the moment, as they were convereted to USD at an opportune time so that kinda kills your basis for the accusation now doesn't it? Btw WTF is $253.67 / 10 / 2? That's not the most direct way to calculate it, or accurate. Here, let's short version it instead. 378TH/s anticipated network speed. Wait, let's go with your number! 10x 22.5TH/s = 225TH/s. Your Jalapeno will be 0.002% of the block solving so 0.0005BTC every 10 minutes @ 25 per block. That's 0.072BTC/day. At $12.80 that's $0.9216 per day. That's 161 days but A LOT more when you add in shipping and electricity. Still not so great. With my more realistic numbers, that's closer to 258 days + shipping and electricity. Welcome back to the former GPU payoff period  Kinda my point. When you resort to personal insults, it only makes one person look stupid. I'll let you figure out who that is. How about you try reading my post next time. $253.67 / 10 / 2 = the single would make $12.68/day. I'm talking singles, not Jalepeno's. $253.67 is the amount that a 60gh/s single would make at today's price/difficulty rate / 10 accounts for the difficulty increase / 2 accounts for the block reward drop Also, for your sake, I'll add in electricity and shipping to my calculations. Shipping is $34 (?). That's 3 more days. 106 days in total now. Electricity is 60w x 24hrs x 106days / 1000kwh/w x $0.08/kwh = $12.21 in electricity. 107 days now. So, we've added 4 days because of shipping and electricity costs. I'll quote you again now. A LOT more when you add in shipping and electricity
No, not so much. |
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To add to the wrong things...: The Jalepeno now puts out 4.5GH/s. The Single now puts out 60GH/s. MR = 1500GH/s. Now, if we get a 10x difficulty increase after the preorders are filled (which I think is quite likely), and if someone was to order a Single after said difficulty increase, and if that happened after the 25 reward drop, and if the price didn't move, then: $253.67 / 10 / 2 = the single would make $12.68/day. That's still a return on investment of 103 days (interestingly, almost exactly what the ROI was when I purchased my first-gen Singles). So, I'll reiterate it this way:- Current ASIC pre-orderers are most certainly not screwed. Every one of them will make their money back and more. And I'll take someone up on a betsofbitco.in regarding that to put my money where my mouth is.
- It is likely that the ROI will remain reasonable (under 12 months) for the forseeable future, unless the BTC price drops significantly. The reason for this is that we will quickly reach a point where the
Desolator, why do you keep making these anti-ASIC threads anyway? It seems you are jealous of everyone who actually can order an ASIC, and have made it your goal to prevent more orders and/or make current pre-order holders feel bad. It doesn't make much sense to me, and frankly, your repetition of falsities in these threads are getting a bit stale. |
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We are getting somewhere here--
The point is we are supposed to be a self regulated community. If someone wants to be taken serious, they should have to submit to some simple community auditing and regulation.
This will reduce scams, increase profit and therefore increase the future value of Bitcoin
Yes, I agree. I would be very unlikely to invest in a company that is not holding to GAAP standards and is not being regularly audited, or at least very transparent with their reporting. Unfortunately, most of the community does not hold to those sorts of standards, thus the companies do not feel the need to conform to GAAP or audit requests. If this thread is a call to action for investors to demand more transparency in these areas from companies prior to investing in them, then I wholeheartedly agree. Not much can be done besides just talking about it, but hopefully even that will make progress in this area. The cashflow report should list that in detail.
It is a mandatory part of accounting.
I think you are afraid, that an operator could manipulate USD/BTC to his advantage.
An operator should write his invoices in USD, e.g. if he paid for the electricity in USD.
The company then will compensate him in USD if it has still reserves.
If not the company can convert BTCs into USD and pay out.
If the operating costs are charged on a regular - predetermined date/time, it would also be possible to pay out BTC with a reasonable exchange rate like MtGox/USD from the predetermined date/time.
But that would only be a best practice, I'm not sure if it is reasonable to regulate this so much in detail.
I am not terribly familiar with GAAP in regards to foreign currency, but what you just described doesn't sound like GAAP at all. I would expect revenues/expenses to be recorded in the base currency (i.e., USD) at the time that the revenue/expense is incurred. Any further fluctuations between the time that the revenue/expense is incurred and the time that the exchange is actually made to/from the base currency would be accounted for separately, as something like a gain/loss on currency conversion. |
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If Bitcoin ever did go completely mainstream and actually succeeded in killing off some fiat currencies, it would make just about every person on this forum incredibly wealthy. The new wealthy elite would be roughly 95% male, and dominated by geeks/nerds/libertarians/smart people.
Speculate on how you think this would affect the world we live in. What would be different vs today's world?
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There hasn't been much disagreement that Ƀ, the "Latin capital letter B with stroke" (Alt+0243) is a pretty decent symbol to use going forward.
I don't like it. It's too plain. My browser displays Luke's symbol alright, and it looks better than ฿ or Ƀ, but I just tried to paste it into the posting text box and it wasn't handled very well. Why not just use "BTC" in text and BTC in images? A symbol in text isn't really required.I agree. Using "BTC" works just fine for the time being. The market will eventually decide on a universally agreed symbol. I don't see that there is a need to settle on any particular one at this time. |
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Taxation is theft.
We still should pay taxes to help ppl with limited abilities. I am all for helping people with limited abilities, but it should be voluntary, not forced. |
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I did mean personal and company funds need to be separate.
Being on a exchange means public company to me, so funds need to kept apart.
If hardware is paid for in USD or expenses incurred in USD then a exchange rate needs to accounted for at the time the expense is incurred.
$80 electric bill being paid for by shareholder operating expenses needs to be $80/Gox last at the time of the bill
If expenses are in Yen, then Yen/GOX.
A mining company should have to report operating equipment and the hash rate it operates at.
What if someone says 100 ghash farm but they are only outputting 80 ghash?
That is not a viable business, that is taking money from the future to pay dividends today.
It is very easy to show what your output is
Yes, I agree. I suppose I should have just continued with the implied assumption of the conversation being about companies with shareholders. Regardless, the currency conversion things you mentioned are covered by GAAP. Companies (even Bitcoin-based ones) should follow GAAP, and shareholders should demand GAAP compliance by companies before investing in them. Shareholder should also demand transparency (i.e., visibility of hashing power). Real-world companies misrepresent their actual production figures all the time, and they are kept in check via independent auditors. Therefore, shareholders of Bitcoin-based companies should demand either periodical independent auditing or reliable ways of verifying that the company is actually producing what it says it is producing. |
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No need to reinvent the wheel here people. Use GAAP. It exists for a reason, and there's no reason it doesn't apply to business conducted using Bitcoins vs business conducted using other financial instruments.
The only item in your list that GAAP doesn't apply to is #2. And to that, I really don't even understand what you are requesting. Company funds are not to be mixed? Mixed with what? Why?
In the real world, mixing personal and corporate funds is called commingling. It lands you in prison, typically. If that's what he meant, then I agree, unless the person is on the sole-propriety level of business. If they are actually incorporated, then yes, the funds absolutely need to be kept separately. If they are a sole-proprietor or equivalent, they can mix their funds between business and personal. |
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Honestly, everyone should just continue using BTC until a Bitcoin symbol is standardized and viewable on 95% of computers without modifying the default fonts or encodings.
Many currencies used already existing symbols. We don't need anybody's permission to adopt the Thai Baht. Except that it'll be confusing for anyone trying to use Bitcoin in Thailand, and/or with Thai people. The exchange rats are vastly different. Additionally, the US Dollar stole the $ sign from other countries. It's just how it works. Things will sort out. The Silk Road and other major retailers are using this sign. It can't be escaped. Those exchange rats are very different indeed. For one thing, Japanese rats vs Thai rats. Although I suppose exchange rats generally exist for each currency worldwide. Regardless, you may be right. I don't think there's much hope in attempting to standardize a particular symbol - the market will use what it will, and even though it might not be the best option, it will eventually become the standard. |
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No need to reinvent the wheel here people. Use GAAP. It exists for a reason, and there's no reason it doesn't apply to business conducted using Bitcoins vs business conducted using other financial instruments.
The only item in your list that GAAP doesn't apply to is #2. And to that, I really don't even understand what you are requesting. Company funds are not to be mixed? Mixed with what? Why?
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It's a forum about a handgun manufacturer.
Perhaps, once they can buy ammo only for gold, silver, canned tuna and bitcoins, they would change the attitude then. Agreed. Until then though, they probably still won't care. |
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Honestly, everyone should just continue using BTC until a Bitcoin symbol is standardized and viewable on 95% of computers without modifying the default fonts or encodings.
Many currencies used already existing symbols. We don't need anybody's permission to adopt the Thai Baht. Except that it'll be confusing for anyone trying to use Bitcoin in Thailand, and/or with Thai people. |
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Honestly, everyone should just continue using BTC until a Bitcoin symbol is standardized and viewable on 95% of computers without modifying the default fonts or encodings.
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I don't know what bersachat is, but I lol'd that they called it "bidcoin".
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I'd do a combination of:
1) $20k BTC purchase, $5k at a time over a few days.
2) $20k in futures contracts with either pools or forum members directly.
3) $10k in options either on an exchange or forum members directly.
4) $30k in mining equipment with Icarus in February.
5) $20k hedged in a combination of physical silver/gold instead, because the factors that would increase BTC would also increase those.
On the ones where you deal with forum members directly, look for those with established reputations only, anyone else, ignore.
You may want to also consider a purchase of $10k of GPUs here in the next two months or so and mining Litecoins instead. If so, I'd take $10k out of the futures contracts to fund that.
And what about the other $900k? I lol'd. Honestly, I'd just buy up 80k BTC. |
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Uh, guys... what am I missing here?  A working web browser, perhaps. Explain to me how Chrome 22.0.1229.79 m is not a working browser? More to the point, I can see the other symbols here just fine. If B⃦ is supposed to be the best symbol, and I (and others) cannot see it properly on standard systems, perhaps it would be better to move to a different symbol that IS displayed properly on a standard system. I am on Firefox BTW. |
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Uh, guys... what am I missing here? |
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I am utilizing the "Bitcoin Classes" by Mike Gogulski and theymos in some PHP code I am playing with. As I understand it, the format for a sendmany is as follows:
$array[address[amount]]
Well, I can't send multiple times to the same address in the same sendmany in this format, since the address would be non-unique. So, what would be the proper array format to sendmany to the same address multiple times?
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Also looking back to see forward I wonder just how quickly we will move through the product iterations. Will we see ~18 month cycles like AMD/Nvidia have shown in the graphics cards sector? What will we do with each lesser generation?
I'd say we'll never see that since I really doubt bitcoin mining will ever go 'mainstream' like graphics cards are. The sort of money we're talking about with manufacturing ASICs is peanuts compared to what AMD and NVidia spend on developing hardware. There just isn't the money in the market to warrant big expenditures. Once everyone and their brother who is actually WANTING to mine bitcoins (and this is a FAR smaller amount than the market for other computer products) has an ASIC, the market will be saturated. The difficulty will go up and the only way to 'be profitable' will be to buy yet more and faster ASICs. So it becomes an arms race and those with the biggest pockets will 'win'. Therefore, it'll be like 'keeping up with the Joneses', like I said before. I don't quite get your statement of "those with the biggest pockets will win" What is your definition of winning? What is your definition of losing? I don't really see how people with different levels of investment will be that far from each other in terms of ROI. A guy investing $1M in ASICs might see a 200% ROI, while a guy investing $150 in ASICs might see a 160% ROI. And the guy with $150 loses? So, enough vague statements - tell me how the little guy will lose in this arms race. |
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...as Bitcointalk.org becomes Sonny's de facto parole officer.
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