Someone copies the picture from the website and posts they have a unit being delivered then gets paid 200+ bitcoins and tells them to wait for 4 more month?
How do you know they have an order?
How do you know they will deliver it.
They could just move.
Jesus Christ!
There is so much low hanging fruit in these forums that the OP probably had 30 messages in his inbox promising to send BTC. Alright, who's going to post their next imaginary MiniRig? Anyone? Post a link! hehe... |
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Give it a rest, people. If you don't want a BFL, don't buy one. If you missed the boat then go cry a river. Trolling the forums with every possible contrived little complaint you can dig up just demonstrates that you're a whiny bitch with an ax to grind...
Hehe, I didn't miss the boat, the boat missed me?! Actually, the boat never came, and it was notorious for being late and for having serious "leaky" problems. The boat conductor is also awful. He swears like a sailor! |
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The fact is plain and simple. Somebody that had $150 ten months ago would have been better off just buying 23BTC directly since a Jalapeno will likely only mine 75% or so of that before it's unproductive. If you could tell me exactly what the price of BTC will be 10 months from now, please let me know so I can either buy or sell a shit load of BTC. Until then, please don't ever post again. The future exchange rate has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this. Hold my hand as I walk you through it. If somebody wants to invest in BTC they can either A) buy them or B) buy hardware to mine them. If they had decided to A) buy BTC and the price of BTC today was $1,000, they would have 23BTC today. If the price of BTC today was $0, they would still have 23BTC today. If they decided to B) pre-order a Jalapeno to mine them and the price today was $1,000, they would have 0BTC today. If the price was $0, they would still have 0BTC. If the price in a year from now is $1,000 they might have 17BTC by that time. If the price in a year is $0, they would still have 17BTC. See how that works? Somebody that pre-ordered a Jalapeno 10 months ago will have 25% less BTC than if they bought them directly. It doesn't matter what the exchange rate has done in the last 10 months. Watch out for this guy Inaba, it seems he has more common sense (and critical thinking) than most.... He's a sharp tack, don't step on him! |
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Um no,
It will be full of:
"WTF! My order number is <insert order number>. Mine is way below his!? Why hasn't mine already shipped?"
Order number doesn't say much anyway since it's the day BFL received full payment that counts, considering this any "normal" order that gets filled right now should have been paid with BTC. Since you like to bash BFL so much you can therefore go hunt for someone who received their day one pre-orders and paid with bank wire (iirc paypal wasn't available from the start). Let's see how it turns out! What would be the point? As soon as anyone else posts that they have recieved the lowest end product, other customers will jump on it and bemoan that they haven't received theirs. In the execution of their bemoaning they will give everyone watching plenty of "juicy details", hence there is no point to go fetch it. It will be there by morning on this, or any other thread. Well if you did manage to find someone who who got their product before they should have (as in they ordered day one but BFL recieved payment later) You would have some actual FACTS to throw at BFL for once rather than your usual pointless mess you like to spew. Then again basing something on facts isn't really your expertise is it. Just saying here's a chance to make sure BFL are sticking to their own set of rules for delivery, it would be easy enough to discover, do something useful for once! Rograz, you must be new. I do use the truth to "throw at BFL". You just don't appear to know it, hence your ignorance. |
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For a $149 investment it'll repay itself and make $1300 on top in one month of mining.
Think again. You paid about 23 BTC 10 months ago. You'll make .3 btc/day. Even if the difficulty doesn't skyrocket (which it will), you need more than 2 months to just break even. You aren't making any profit for a long time. Scared is right to be happy because he invested 149$ in the bitcoin currency (through the jalapeno) and his return will be 149+ $ (actually thousands of them). Scared will be right to be happy that he invested in the bitcoin currency through the jalapenoinstead of directly buying bitcoins when his jalapeno will mine for him more than 23 BTC.Will it? 23 BTC is now worth....3266.03226 USD (or about 22 jalepenos) So...how about someone do some math on the difficulty going up with a constant period of adjustment. What will it take to get back the 23BTC? |
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I don't see how BFL stopped him from buying 23 BTC at any time, can you please post where BFL forbids people from purchasing BTC once they purchase one of our products, which are sold for USD (Not BTC)?
You can't? Oh, then your argument is fallacious. Nice try at rationalizing a false premise, though. Well, actually, no it's not. It's pretty sophomoric and elementary.
The trolls have shifted their stance from "BFL has never shipped" to people could have done X with their pre-payment money.
In the real world people can wait for many months for a house to be built with a deposit much larger than the cost of a BFL device, and they are perfectly happy with that, as long as the builder doesn't go bust and they get their house in the end.
see: Hindsight my friend. BTC could have went to zero too. this is a weak argument.
The value and income of bitcoin mining devices is tied to the value of bitcoin. Unlike gpus, ASIC can't be resold for other purposes. Therefore, by buying a BFL ASIC, he was still at the whim of BTC prices. when you're buying a mining device, you're essentially paying now to get bitcoins later. Spot on! In this case BFL failed to deliver on time. Hence, you lost the opportunity to mine several (thousand) Bitcoins [and counting] if they had shipped when they were scheduled to ship. |
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For a $149 investment it'll repay itself and make $1300 on top in one month of mining.
Think again. You paid about 23 BTC 10 months ago. You'll make .3 btc/day. Even if the difficulty doesn't skyrocket (which it will), you need more than 2 months to just break even. You aren't making any profit for a long time. No, he paid in USD, just like everyone else. Nice try, though. Meanwhile, if he bought BTC, he would have 23 BTC, right now. Nice try at post rationalizing though. I don't see how BFL stopped him from buying 23 BTC at any time, can you please post where BFL forbids people from purchasing BTC once they purchase one of our products, which are sold for USD (Not BTC)? You can't? Oh, then your argument is fallacious. Nice try at rationalizing a false premise, though. Well, actually, no it's not. It's pretty sophomoric and elementary. That would be Economics 101 at a grade school level. Purchasing your product presents an "Opportunity Cost". If the customer buys from you, he cannot use those dollars (or BTC) elsewhere. So in the most limited sense, yes you did present a barrier to the buyer buying BTC. You simply were simply a bad choice and opportunity being chosen. Everything is hindsight though, so I won't blame you or the customer for taking his chances and coming out burned. I can only blame you for not delivering your product on time and within (a reasonable) schedule. Let the lawyers figure out if the customers incurred any loses due to your failure to deliver in a reasonable time frame. (Technically, you took up about 1/100th of their lifetime in the waiting game...think about that for awhile.) |
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Finally shipping it seems. Hopefully not too fast. Just fast enough to not be a scam but not fast enough to actually affect difficulty.  @minterj If BTC went bust, his Jalapeno would also be worthless. The point is, the owner would already have in hand (23BTC) what the device is supposed to provide over the course of 6 months (assuming conservative rises in difficulty). Actually, if he paid in BTC and BTC went down to 0.00001...BFL would have to buy "a whole lot" of Bitcoins for their refund. As there are a finite supply of BitCoins, this might have been a problem. There are trillion of dollars. There aren't "that many" BitCoins. |
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Um no,
It will be full of:
"WTF! My order number is <insert order number>. Mine is way below his!? Why hasn't mine already shipped?"
Order number doesn't say much anyway since it's the day BFL received full payment that counts, considering this any "normal" order that gets filled right now should have been paid with BTC. Since you like to bash BFL so much you can therefore go hunt for someone who received their day one pre-orders and paid with bank wire (iirc paypal wasn't available from the start). Let's see how it turns out! What would be the point? As soon as anyone else posts that they have recieved the lowest end product, other customers will jump on it and bemoan that they haven't received theirs. In the execution of their bemoaning they will give everyone watching plenty of "juicy details", hence there is no point to go fetch it. It will be there by morning on this, or any other thread. |
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Um no,
It will be full of:
"WTF! My order number is <insert order number>. Mine is way below his!? Why hasn't mine already shipped?"
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It's funny how no one wants to share their order # ...  Is it? LMFAO!! HDSolar also won't disclose his order number.... He is supposedly "a standard customer" among the reviewers and developers ....gee I wonder why they won't disclose? GigaVPS is a tremendous farm builder as far as I know, so he's not a normal customer by any stretch of the imagination. This tells me there is priority amoung who they are shipping units to. It does not seem to be related to Pay Date. As soon as someone announces their order, they go quiet on when they ordered or even their order number....gee I wonder why? |
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About 2400 watts on a standard 20amp breaker. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting in a mining farm isn't going to just plug their shit into a standard outlet and walk away.
Well.... Actually that was the plan of a couple of MiniRig owners. Go read up on the BFL forum. Now that the specs are all over the place, that idea is toast. Residential power can easily throw down 200a @240v. or 48,000 watts, or enough to run 1600 jalapenos @30watts. There's literally ZERO chance of anybody over-drawing residential power with BFL equipment. I take it you are new to the concept of electrical nodes. Seriously, there is no way to utilize that much power....safely...with 24/7/365 operation. Residential power is to be used while living. Having something drawing that amount of dangerous load 24x7 is unusual and unsafe. Your wires on a hot day would probably catch fire. I have 173 amps installed in my home. I use my home for "other things" than simply a wooden [flammable] structure to house my mining device.  It could be said that the Minirig is now incompatible with residential power. And before you tout 240V. Keep in mind that those are usually reserved for 1 outlet or maybe 2 per residence. Keeping 8KW+~10KW+ on a 240V plug is not safe. Even if you divide it into two units. More than 2 units and you won't find many (or any) normal residences that have that many outlets rated at 240V. (In the USA) If you're talking about their 1500Gh units, even if you assume 5watts/Gh that's still only 62.5 amps. Plenty of residential hot tubs drawing WAY more than that...
Again, you are mixing a dedicated installation with appropriate safety (implied) with that of a mining unit that will consume almost an entire households electrical box. Could you pull it off? Probably. Would it be practical...unlikely. Would it be safe for 24x7/365 operation...hell no. Valid points, mostly. However, first I have to correct my math. I calculated the amperage for 110v power, so if we are figuring 240v power, it's actually only 31.25aps. However, a 100 amp fuse should be fine to run a 62.5 amp device, even if that were the case, round the clock. So...now to make your logic apply you are going for rarer and rarer types of residential installations? Alright, lets play that game, now we are down to BFL ready® households with 100 amp fuses and multiple 240V lines. A) Keep in mind that in the USA 110 is the standard while 240V is an exception. I have never seen a residence with lots of 240v lines. B) I have never heard of 1 PC power supply that can supply 10kilowatts. So unless you also employ a veeeerrry rare 100amp fuse installation....with I suppose 4 gauge wiring...you are talking about multiple plugs of 240V and 8kw to 10kw heat dissipation into a normal non-air conditioned residence. C) Lets not talk about adding air conditioning to add to the power equation or exacerbate the situation. Instead lets imagine that the typical household as being near or on the artic circle. Alrighty, let move on. If there are people planning on buying multiple devices @$30,000/pop and running them on residential power, that's a fallacy on the part of those individuals, and not the fault of BFL. Your statement flies in the face of BFL's original intent....to provide power efficient MiniRigs. Their power use was a main selling point. This is not the fault of the customer that BFL failed to live up to this. This is also not a fallacy to have believed BFL's advertising. For one, they're not even listing it as available, but anybody planning on putting multiple machines like that on a residential service main is seriously failing at logic. Again, you are thinking through this in hindsight. At the time the MiniRigs were being sold they were designed and spec'ed well within the ratings of a household. You are either new here or you are (for some reason) avoiding reality. These machines (though they're not even available for presale at this time) Irrelevant, they were on sale with a much different spec in the past. Now they are no longer available...I presume...because they fail to meet that spec. [...] assuming a high power consumption or not, are intended for commercial-grade installations. FALSE.These were not touted with commercial grade installations in mind. Hence, they are no longer on sale...see above. Again, please return to reality when you are thinking up these posts! People with that kind of cash to throw at mining rigs have dedicated, air-conditioned server rooms, powered by industrial-grade electrical wiring systems, with battery backup systems, backed up by generators, etc. False, you do not know where the money comes from to buy these rigs. Some people have said they have taken out loans and remortgaged their house. (No, I am not kidding) Therefore you cannot assume that (by default) the buyers are somehow rich or have collocation ready to go. To assume this is to stretch reality to meet the merits of an argument. If you've got $30,000 to drop per machine, on a few machines, you've got the money to put it in a proper home. That means leasing a small amount of dedicated space in a datacenter. Does it? If you're just going to buy one, you can get away with running it at your home, but you're gonna have to consider its power consumption needs, and possibly hire an electrician to put in a dedicated circuit for you (again, if you've got $30k, you can afford to have this done). Face palm. You do realize that 10kilowatts of heat dissipation in any home is very dangerous right? Your only option with a 10kilowatt heat profile is to have dedicated monitoring and a server grade rack. Just keep in mind, this is not what the MiniRig was intended to require. It has a smartphone display integrated into the front of it for user monitoring. Therefore, unless the monitoring is coming from a person living at a datacenter...it was designed for residential applications. Otherwise, you would have seen server grade software and monitoring built into the device as is standard, in many commercial servers. After the Power Issue reared it head, (when Kano was there) they had plans to add supplemental power supplies. Though, the Power issue is now estimated far beyond the spec of even that supplementary power supply. Hence, it is no mystery why it is "out of stock". If people are planning on hooking it up in their college dorm room, they probably need to consider a different approach.
But none of this has anything to do with whether BFL should actually move forward with the project or not.
Hah, I think you need to go back to October and realize that you don't seem to know what you are talking about.... |
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I passed the same bar that you did. And yes its rude to think your psuedo law knowledge is better than mine. I stayed at a holiday inn express so it makes me an expert. I know that most sales issues are a civil matter. In these cases they want you to resolve before bringing to court. Judges want you to arbitrate before bringing a case to court. If one party refunds you the money back, the matter is pretty much dead. But again, unless you are trying to claim some kind of damages, (lol try explaining difficulty changes and lost minging profits to a judge) i doubt you have any case.
This was actually rehashed several times in several threads, but I can post a summary here: Under federal law, several elements are required to prove fraud: a material false statement made with an intent to deceive, a victim’s reliance on the statement and damages. You can look that up here. http://www.federalcrimefaq.com/what-constitutes-the-crime-of-wire-fraud/BFL saying they had a prototype and a shipping date when they obviously did not and taking peoples money under those pretenses could not have been an accident. There was clear intent to deceive about the current and state shipping date of BFLs products. I think everyone who made a BFL purchase relied on the shipping dates provided in order to calculate their risk and return. The damages are trivial to illustrate, plug a Jalapeno in and it generates a revenue stream. Loss of that promised revenue stream is all you need tell the judge. You cannot undo a criminal act just by giving a refund or any other act of goodwill for that matter. It is also not clear what would happen to BFL if everyone asked for a refund at the same time, if BFL did not spend any of the pre-order cash, why did they need to take pre-orders? If they did spend some of the pre-order cash and something goes wrong (spending out of control due to over optimistic schedules for instance), then not everyone could get a refund. This all sounds well and good, but missing the one key thing... IF you want criminal penalties, either state or federal, you'll need to convince an overworked DA to actually investigate and then once they are convinced of wrongdoing and the possibility of successful prosecution to actually prosecute this. Now seeing as they are shipping something that resembles what they promised... Good Luck. Me: Hey, I have a tip. There is this company that I believe is engaged in fraud. DA: Why do you think they are committing fraud? Me: Because they take several million dollars from thousands of customers and don't deliver 99.99% of the time. They simply refund your money with money from newer customers. DA: What?! That almost sounds like a Ponzi scheme and outright fraud. Me: I know, right? Me: Please, investigate! |
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I will try to get BitPay to respond to this ongoing situation with BFL. Hopefully they will give us some insight as to where they stand. Actually I am more interested if they offer buyers any form of protection or really hold any Vendor/Seller accountable with their merchant account.
I am hoping they do, but you never know.
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Don't take my word for it though. I might be wrong.
Go ask Inaba to see if this is the case and get him to pin down the Voucher as applying to new hardware @ the new rate. (Thereby revoking part of the wording found within the Voucher terms)
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Don't forget the "voucher" is now only good to be used on the new products which have had their prices jacked way up.
1. Increase prices by 100% 2. Give vouchers for 10% and 25% off. LOL You know what is the worst part? It's not really 25% or 10% anymore.... The wording of the Voucher programs says "for the same amount". So if I bought a single at the original price ($1299)...my Voucher is only good for 25% off @ $1299. If I were to buy a new Single (@ 50Gh/s) at the new price of $2495, my 25% Voucher would apply only to the $1299 or half of my orders full price. I'd have to pay the rest of the remainder at full price. The rest of the order amount isn't covered according to the way the Voucher policy is applied. Therefore you don't get 25% off $2495... Order Total: $2495 +Shipping and Handling Discount applied to original order amount: 1299 - 25% = 974.25 (Voucher applied to original order sum) 974.25 + 1196 (<-- remaining sum) = $2170.25 Total 2170.25 + Shipping and Handling = Actual Total Actual discount --> About ~12.5%~ |
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About 2400 watts on a standard 20amp breaker. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting in a mining farm isn't going to just plug their shit into a standard outlet and walk away.
Well.... Actually that was the plan of a couple of MiniRig owners. Go read up on the BFL forum. Now that the specs are all over the place, that idea is toast. Residential power can easily throw down 200a @240v. or 48,000 watts, or enough to run 1600 jalapenos @30watts. There's literally ZERO chance of anybody over-drawing residential power with BFL equipment. I take it you are new to the concept of electrical nodes. Seriously, there is no way to utilize that much power....safely...with 24/7/365 operation. Residential power is to be used while living. Having something drawing that amount of dangerous load 24x7 is unusual and unsafe. Your wires on a hot day would probably catch fire. I have 173 amps installed in my home. I use my home for "other things" than simply a wooden [flammable] structure to house my mining device. It could be said that the Minirig is now incompatible with residential power. And before you tout 240V. Keep in mind that those are usually reserved for 1 outlet or maybe 2 per residence. Keeping 8KW+~10KW+ on a 240V plug is not safe. Even if you divide it into two units. More than 2 units and you won't find many (or any) normal residences that have that many outlets rated at 240V. (In the USA) If you're talking about their 1500Gh units, even if you assume 5watts/Gh that's still only 62.5 amps. Plenty of residential hot tubs drawing WAY more than that...
Again, you are mixing a dedicated installation with appropriate safety (implied) with that of a mining unit that will consume almost an entire households electrical box. Could you pull it off? Probably. Would it be practical...unlikely. Would it be safe for 24x7/365 operation...hell no. |
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Details....details....  It is not like anyone is actually going to report them to the FCC! |
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BTW, we are at 1.5 THash/s now.  The approximately 8 Avalon on your pool are itching to do shares at 64+ difficulty.  Edit: I noticed some of the units are using diff-1...that must drive up net traffic like crazy. |
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It also doesn't make much sense to buy a 60Gh/s miner at this point.
The profitability is going down at this point....so if I am going to buy something it has to be superior to 75Gh/s. BFL simply has no way of delivering that at this point. It will probably turn into May and they won't even be shipping the singles. (IMO)
No matter how I keep cutting this cake in my mind, it doesn't add up. I am not looking for "residual earnings" in BitCoins either. The BFL rigs are late to the game and don't make much sense anymore unless you buy multiple units. Only if you buy multiple units and somehow managed to get their old pricing would it make sense.
2.5k is a little much for a 60Gh/s miner at this late in the game. I am waiting on upgraded modules from Avalon. That is the only road I see that is worthwhile at this point.
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