^I'd say everything that comprises bitcoin right now is much more than 1B, ie the Network. Market cap (ie shares*$spot) does not equal valuation.
For one, you cannot sell 11.5M bitcoins for $1B at market. Slippage. Same thing with buying $1B. You can't just raise the price 100% doing that, the price would be much much higher. Might be more cost effective to buy a mining monopoly instead.
Granted, the same could be said of other currency apparatus. Which apple should we use to compare with which orange? The difference in M1 is more than 1:1000 so as order of magnitude, consider the threat Iceland poses to the USA as a world currency, except bitcoin would be about half of that. |
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What you are missing is that the spread is not due to the relative value of the Bitcoins, it's due to the relative value of the $.
or lack of value of GoxUSD as it cost 20% to withdraw. That would pump the Gox valuation of litecoin at the expense of its bitcoin valuation. That would be very bullish for litecoin. The LTC value @ gox would just end up being 20% higher than everywhere else as well. IT's a Fiat IN/Fiat OUT problem. We agree, but for the "just" characterization.  |
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What you are missing is that the spread is not due to the relative value of the Bitcoins, it's due to the relative value of the $.
or lack of value of GoxUSD as it cost 20% to withdraw. That would pump the Gox valuation of litecoin at the expense of its bitcoin valuation. That would be very bullish for litecoin. |
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OK well based on ur experience i setup everything on coinbase.
gotta wait a few for verification.
Anyone else have any suggestions?
If you don't want to wait bitcoin-brokers is FAST. Coinbase is not fast, takes a while for verification. 1 month for trust building. Those are all good things for an ongoing concern, If you just want to buy some coins now. Bitcoin-brokers is easy, quick, and painless. You could have them today. |
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Don't give too much on it. It's germany. Our authorities all over the country are kings. No matter what you do - they tell you what you are not allowed to do and then you have to pay for it (not the taxes, you have to pay an extra-fee if the people which are payed by your taxes actually work against you). Germany has never developed a financial innovation, and things didn't chance here. This news is maybe just a party-harmonizer. Remember, we will vote in September. And in our government-alliance sits the only german politician interested in Bitcoins - Frank Schäffler. He is also a hard and loud criticizer of the EU and the Euro and the Euro-crisis-policy. So they give him something to play and he will shut his anti-euro-mouth till the vote has gone. For them bitcoin is very unimportant - some little millions out there from german coiners, a very little part of what we germans are paying for fees that the authorities forbid something, a little part of the money brought in the swiss every year, a little part of money we send to greece. Maybe the sum, the state gives to one little universitiy for a special science project. They just don't care about bitcoin. And this is good. Neary noone in the government and in the authorities is mentally able to realize they can't controll bitcoin. Maybe in five years, maybe in ten. Then it will be too late  Thank you for this insightful context. |
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What is JPMorgan up to? First the sold all the Gold in the last couple of months, then about a month ago they had the fire in the lower floors of the building and now the sell the Building which also has the biggest commercial gold vault in the world with an tunnel straight to the Fed . They obviously don't see any use for the vault ever again. Was the fire just a convenient way to get rid of some filing cabinets? Is it time to get out of Gold? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-18/jpmorgan-selling-building-houses-its-gold-vault
but there is soon another time coming to sell gold, before the big buy is warranted
UP. DOWN. UP big time
How far down is your best guess? Between 1000-800. My lowest estimate is 600. Its a matter of the timeframe you looking at, but JPM seems to be of the opinion that it will be lower than that and it will stay low. A lot of people not agree with that. A Bank without a vault, yes times have changed. The BASEL III accord is pushing toward that. The international banking consortium has ranked gold as a 50% risk to value asset. Now they value sovereign fiat currency higher. It is yet to be and implemented (moved out to 2018). The central banks and national treasuries hold most of the gold. This drops their incentive to hold it (if they are holding it for the asset value of backing their loaning activity). There are LOTS of other reasons to hold it, that is only one of the practical reasons for the big holders. |
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It's true that right now we are free to use bitcoins and aren't legally obligated to accept fiat, but will that continue to be the case in the future? In the past, when an alternative like e-gold or Liberty Reserve began to emerge, they found a way to shut it down. Fortunately, it won't be that easy with Bitcoin. In response, I suspect they will resort to more drastic measures in an effort to force us into their debt-based fiat currency. After all, their survival will depend on it.
You have a point. If bitcoin is seen as a real threat, all hell will break loose. It *is* their survival we're talking about. I suspect that's why Satoshi was so against people flexing bitcoin muscle with wikileaks & putting bitcoin in the spotlight. Tough revolutionary talk on this forum only validates bitcoin as a real threat, playing right in the hands of the opposition. Maybe. It's also possible that Satoshi just thought that it was too soon to be so vocal and just wanted to keep Bitcoin under the radar until it had gained wider acceptance. We can't bite our tongues forever. Now that the bankers and politicians are coming out with the predictable red herrings of money laundering, tax evasion, funding terrorism, drug trafficking, etc., it's important that we all understand the real issue at hand. Bitcoin has a total valuation of around 1 Billion is not a threat to anything close to even a small bank, much less a central bank of a small country, much less to anyone that has any real power. Just the QE buying of the US Fed is 85x that per month. We are still a speck on the windshield of the bullet train. We remain a couple orders of magnitude away from having a significant impact. Supposedly some of the bankers would have the knowledge to see the potential of bitcoins well before the value of the sum of bitcoins passes the value of the sum of all dollars. Guaranteed. There was approximately $1.2 trillion USD in circulation as of August 14, 2013, of which $1.16 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes. http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htmSo presumably if some banker sees the potential prior to bitcoin being worth >US$100,000 each...(and some may already) but by then, now many FRN will there be? |
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You can't ruin Bitcoin with hardware. Bitcoin can be ruined if it's utility is threatened but that's not with hardware. Even if someone had a magic box with 60% of hashing power right now they still wouldn't find it profitable in real life to double spend and crash the rate vs simply to mine and sell the coins at a much higher rate. That's exactly what happened with Avalon. They probably at one point had more hashpower than the entire network combined if not a few times that, but who could they double spend to make it even remotely worthwhile? Nobody. Will that remain true as we approach both a much larger acceptance therefore a much easier double spend profitability and a lower block reward combined with lots of old cheap asics with lots of hashpower but simply electrically inefficient. Only time will tell.
Hardware may be one of the only things that CAN ruin bitcoin. A 51% attack launched by a hostile force could do that. ASICs help protect against that. Running them in defense against such an attack is noble in the face of unprofitability. (Thank you, miners) |
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 There were 1501 of these 2012 New Liberty Dollars produced. Very few were in excellent condition, those that were, have commanded a premium from the collecting community. http://www.ebay.com/bhp/2012-liberty-silver-dollarThey were sold by us at just a few dollars over spot price less than a year ago, but the buyers that are offering them for sale are doing pretty well, though most of those that have them now aren't likely to sell them, those are the collectors.. If this first strike auction were open to the general public, rather than just this forum it is likely it would go higher than it has. So we think, we hope, this auction winner will also do well, that is our goal here.  We don't expect it to go for a high price, but one that will be good for the winner in any case. Our primary concern is never the collectors (though I myself am one), but rather those people that will ultimately circulate these pieces into their community, and to spread the message of bitcoin and alternative currencies. We aren't looking to make collectibles. Hard money, uninflatable money, is what it is going to take to have a persistently robust economy, and a persistent peace. The people can never be free until their money is free. Without monetary freedom, there isn't any freedom at all. |
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Being recognized as a "currency" is great, but how is it meaningful?
Currency isn't a legally compelling term is it? Most anything actively traded is a currency so it is about as meaningful as recognizing that water is drinkable, just a statement of facts.
That it was done in response by to a question from Parliament is the meaningful bit. That it is talked about at all by such levels of government in the public eye is meaningful. Just that the content of what is said (and its accuracy) is not so meaningful.
Its not like they said that they will accept it in payment for anything...they are just recognizing that some people somewhere do that. Its the folks doing that recognizing that it meaningful... they are testing the waters.
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It's true that right now we are free to use bitcoins and aren't legally obligated to accept fiat, but will that continue to be the case in the future? In the past, when an alternative like e-gold or Liberty Reserve began to emerge, they found a way to shut it down. Fortunately, it won't be that easy with Bitcoin. In response, I suspect they will resort to more drastic measures in an effort to force us into their debt-based fiat currency. After all, their survival will depend on it.
You have a point. If bitcoin is seen as a real threat, all hell will break loose. It *is* their survival we're talking about. I suspect that's why Satoshi was so against people flexing bitcoin muscle with wikileaks & putting bitcoin in the spotlight. Tough revolutionary talk on this forum only validates bitcoin as a real threat, playing right in the hands of the opposition. Maybe. It's also possible that Satoshi just thought that it was too soon to be so vocal and just wanted to keep Bitcoin under the radar until it had gained wider acceptance. We can't bite our tongues forever. Now that the bankers and politicians are coming out with the predictable red herrings of money laundering, tax evasion, funding terrorism, drug trafficking, etc., it's important that we all understand the real issue at hand. Bitcoin has a total valuation of around 1 Billion is not a threat to anything close to even a small bank, much less a central bank of a small country, much less to anyone that has any real power. Just the QE buying of the US Fed is 85x that per month. We are still a speck on the windshield of the bullet train. We remain a couple orders of magnitude away from having a significant impact. |
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I can't buy one? I have to bid?
 The OP has been updated with the release pricing. This auction is for one of the pre-release pieces. It is for one of the "first strike" pieces special minted for the marketing. It is something more for the collector than for people that want them to use them. The general release strikes will be made by the 1000s or 10000s. There are only 40 of these. We are taking pre-orders if you want to lock in the silver price at current level, but we aren't really expecting many folks to be buying singles, at least not from us. Most of our orders tend to be 100+. We will take orders of any size, but if you are looking for just a single, you are paying full retail + shipping so you will not be getting the best deal around. Premium goes down with quantity fairly sharply so if you just want a few, you would do better to hook up with a larger quantity buyer and get them discounted + share the shipping costs, etc. We almost certainly won't be auctioning more of these on BitCoinTalk. The market here is pretty thin (very few bidders). I doubt any of the folks that have been awarded these would let them go for this, but we did want to at least provide the opportunity for our supporters here to get a chance at one of these. You have all been very good to us and we are grateful for that! Thank you for bidding. |
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You've chosen to introduce a new term, "money," without defining it. You obviously do not mean "legal tender," as you clearly state below. This breaks the conventional understanding of the term, so what, may i ask, do you mean? nouncement? I'm starting to feel i've been trolled.
This is the saddest post I have seen in a while. The notion that "Legal Tender" = "money" is one of the greatest tragedies of modern human history. The Legal Tender law is one of the greatest thefts of freedom and would have Andrew Jackson rolling in his grave if he were aware of his face on paper with that writing on it which spits out of ATM machines all over the USA. |
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As described and pictured: #22 of 40 of the first strike pieces minted for the marketing and promotion. Likely this will be the only auction of these pieces as these are generally reserved to be awarded for those contributors and supporters of the project that have distinguished themselves in some way, so this is your opportunity to join our team by participating in our first BitCoinTalk auction Included is one Bitcoin Cold Hard Cash .999 fine silver 1 ounce piece, airtite container, display case, certificate of authenticity. USPS Priority Shipping will be added to the winning bid, insured at the option of the winner. May the best win, good luck!    The auction will start at 0.01 BTC and will end when 24 hours elapse after the last bid, at whatever price that may be. Please bid by reply to this or another "Auction" subject post within this thread so as to be clear that the post is intended as a bid. |
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It would be much simpler than you are all making it.
To fully adopt bitcoin, all a nation would have to do is to start accepting it for payments, along with their own currency. Giving it the same standing within their law as the the other currency could be done, but that is not even necessary.
Current law allows people to accept bitcoin, tree bark or calico cats -- not only dollars -- as payment. Nothing needs to be changed but the minds of those insisting on being paid in US dollars. I see no problems. People are free to accept it. Currently no government institution does, or at least none of which I am aware. When one does, that government will begin to accumulate bitcoin, which will in turn bolster and improve it's fiat currency as it will have some crypto currency assets. Then when BASEL IV or V or IX or however long it takes for bitcoin to be recognized internationally as an asset class hits, they will be ready. Whether folks would willingly part with their precious bitcoins in a transaction with their government remains to be seen. I suspect at least some might. Gresham's law may come into play at that point. |
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Bernard von NotHaus is not involved. The article headline is misleading, the lower court case for him is not yet settled, he has not been sentenced and has a motion before the court for acquittal. We would maintain that he is not guilty of any current law, and innocent of any wrongdoing, and that the prosecution has not proved their case, but the jury was bamboozled. Hopefully justice will prevail. He has suffered much at the misguided efforts of the federal prosecution, we wish him well. |
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This piece does represent a piece of history. There has never before been specie of any kind that was not only money worldwide, but also translates its value through a QR code link into local currency as well as bitcoin.
Shire Silver has had a QR code linking to its suggested trade value for over a year now. Its also significantly easier to carry for everyday use as it fits in wallets the same as credit cards. It comes in several denominations ranging in MSRP from $40 all the way down to $1 so its much easier to make smaller purchases with than any traditional bullion. You really should check it out. I <3 Shire Silver. You folks are heroes and I am happy for your continued success. |
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So really this is nothing more than a bitcoin themed souvenir that's valued upon the material it is made out of?  I'd take issue with that. It is not at all a souvenir. It is a currency, and not only is it bitcoin themed it has a role in the bitcoin ecosystem that is currently horribly vacant. How is it a currency? - I can't pay for fuel with it and I can't pay for items through bitpay with it ? Silver and gold have been currency for about 3000 years. You might be surprised how readily it is accepted. It is a lot easier to trade at point of sale than bitcoin currently, and there are more folks using it than bitcoin today. Also how is there a vacancy in the bitcoin ecosystem?
The recent Pirateat40 case brought this point to light as well. The claim that there is no specie for bitcoin was a point brought forward to claim that it is not money, and just a game. The more products and services that are exchangeable for bitcoin the better for bitcoin. Each new product expands the bitcoin economy. - That's the whole point of having a virtual P2P currency - nothing physical.
If that is the whole point of it to you, please feel welcome to boycott it, protest it, or do whatever you feel is right. For myself and many others, there are many many points to having a virtual P2P currency, and the absence of material goods denominated in bitcoin is a problem rather than a solution. What better than the oldest and most pervasive monetary commodities with a flexible exchange rate incorporated into the piece to bring the tangible value of bitcoin to a greater population? All your doing is trying to manipulate bitcoin into something it's not. All I see is a fancy t-shirt made out of silver saying "I <3 Bitcoin"
.... good luck to you.
I deeply appreciate your well wishes, even in your disagreement or misunderstanding of the purpose of this project. It is certainly a project born out of love for Bitcoin. It is not intended as a manipulation, or any attempt to detract from the essential purpose of Bitcoin, but simply to bring it to a wider audience, to extend its reach, to create a physical and tangible reminder of Bitcoin... but most of all, to have a pocket-friendly specie piece that can be carried casually without worry that you are ruining it. Something that you can whip out at any time you transact, to offer a voluntary choice of payment. Sure you could do that with T-shirts, but they are bulky and less durable, and less fungible and one size doesn't fit all. I am eager to see ways it can be improved or the mission clarified, so I appreciate your comments and welcome more. |
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It would be much simpler than you are all making it.
To fully adopt bitcoin, all a nation would have to do is to start accepting it for payments, along with their own currency. Giving it the same standing within their law as the the other currency could be done, but that is not even necessary.
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