Religion is increasing as we get closer to the second coming of Jesus. From Matthew 24: 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.  Hundreds of years ago virtually everyone believed in god and jesus didn't come, why would he come now lol. |
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Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.
''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''
Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.
''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''
An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.
You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep. God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves. I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions. Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed. Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along. You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus. As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint. God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want? The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated. Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved. Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED? You are making my eyes bleed, stop. |
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Don't ignore the most important. From 1996 to 2015, James Randi, magician, escape artist, and skeptic, offered $1,000,000 to anyone who could demonstrate, under conditions he and the claimant agreed upon, any paranormal powers including psychokinesis. The prize was never claimed. There are similar offers around the world.
If your ''experts'' really want so hard to convince people, why not do it and win a lot of money as well, why haven't they claimed all the prizes? They could not only be rich but also prove everything they want to prove, yet we haven't seen them do it.
You cannot explain away these data points by merely pointing to Randi's Prize; you have to think clearly and be capable of intelligently assessing new ideas when presented. Your claim that PK is "not proven" is asserted without evidence unless you address the data or conduct your own tests. You cited the experts (Bosch, et al) who conducted an exhaustive search for these types of tests, that is essentially your only source. What is important is that PK is measured and tested by means of methodologically sound experimental procedures which are repeatable, and that your own source admits this. Furthermore, your own source failed at reproducing the results using their "File Drawer" explanation. Refusing to intelligently assess this new idea means that you are acting irrationally. Yes I can, what I cannot do is disprove every single ''test'' or ''argument'' you throw at me simply because scientists are not interested in them so no one really tried to debunk them. My argument goes beyond specific tests that nutjobs still claim they have done and they worked. Scientists were interested in this phenomena long ago but as I said, they stopped because everyone realized it's not true, this is not like god where a good amount of scientists still actually believe in it, basically 99.9% of scientists have said telekinesis is not real, get over it. If your scammer scientists were interested in proving their stupid shit, they would have done so publishing the results in a lot of scientific journals and they would have claimed the prizes but they didn't. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? |
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Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.
''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''
Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.
''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''
An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.
You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep. God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves. I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions. Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed. |
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Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''
Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''
An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
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Jesus speaking: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 28 Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, all earthly sins were paid for. All sins were forgiven. The first job of the Holy Spirit is to work faith in Jesus-salvation in the hearts of people so that they can believe and be saved. His subsequent jobs are to work living a good life in people. To whatever extent people resist the working of faith by the Holy Spirit, that is what they will never be forgiven for. Those who don't/can't resist the working of salvation faith in them by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, even though they resist the Spirit's teaching about living a good life to some extent. The extent to which they resist will never be forgiven them. The result will be less glory and praise and joy in Heaven for resisting the Holy Spirit in the living-a-good-life "minor" ways on earth. But they will be saved because they did not resist the Holy Spirit working salvation faith in their hearts. Their blasphemy of the Spirit was done in a way that did not negate their salvation, but only lessened their "status" or "position" in Heaven. Those who resist the working of salvation in their hearts that the holy Spirit is attempting to do... those people will lose salvation forever, because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for. The sins they did on earth have all been forgiven already by Jesus' work on the cross. They don't have any choice about that. It's their blaspheming against the Spirit by resisting Him that is not forgiven. And the extent that they blasphemed in their case is enough to keep them out of Heaven. It will never be changed. They will never be forgiven and saved. The sentence against them is forever. Hmm, so you are saying I can rape and kill people my whole life as long as I don't resist the holy spirit? I'm (probably) not the one who is going to stop you. But if you do it with enough vigor, your life will be short. EDIT: Your life might be long in prison. You'll get a lot of it back, there. But am I going to heaven or not? Are you really asking me that question? I don't really know what is in your heart, or what will happen to you in the future. But. I can tell you this much. It sure doesn't look like it, now. I'm asking because you posted this ''because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for'' Doesn't that mean that I can do a lot of bad things but as long as I dont resist the holy spirit I'm still going to heaven? I know. The explanation is a little deep for you. So, since you are asking piece by piece, I'll break it down a little for you. Doing bad things IS resisting the Holy Spirit. Using your example, above, if you rape and kill people with enough vigor, you will get prison or the chair. The amount of prison you actually get will never be taken away. Once you've been there for a year, nobody can give you that year back. That blasphemy of the Holy Spirit's instructions for living will never be forgiven. If, however, your former blasphemy, or the prison, doesn't cause you to resist the salvation of Jesus, you will still get Heaven. But your "status" in Heaven (all things else being equal) will be less than what it would have been if you hadn't done the raping and killing. Not because the raping and killing aren't forgiven by God, but because you resisted listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit when He was trying to tell you not to do it. As it is, by the things you post, it seems that you are entirely against even the idea of God existing. Will the Holy Spirit be able to work salvation in your heart right around your formal resistance? I don't know. But the Bible says very little chance. So, probably, no Heaven for you. What about babies that die prematurely, do they go to heaven directly? That would be unfair, no? What about all the people that could have existed and they don't? Your god doesn't make much logic, does he? The requirement for going to Heaven is to believe in Jesus-salvation. If the embryo or the fetus believes when it dies, then it will go to Heaven. Why? Because it did not resist the Holy Spirit (blasphemy) regarding faith in Jesus-salvation. A baby or fetus or embryo has little choice about resisting like you do. You have had time to build up resistance to the HS. The baby lives almost entirely with the HS, because all it knows is the work the HS is doing to make it grow, having come from a single cell that God causes to start and to grow. It hasn't had enough time to learn about the world so that it can be tempted to resist... like you have. It's too busy growing as God instructs it. Rofl I don't even know what to say but I guess that shows how smart you are. Anyways I really love this quote  |
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Please tell me you are trolling |
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Ok, let's start again. ''First I highlighted how we can mathematically deduce The Incompleteness of the universe and logically conclude that whatever is outside the universe must be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852'' No, no and no. Simply wrong. First of all you cannot even apply kurt godel theorem to the universe: https://www.quora.com/Can-G%C3%B6dels-incompleteness-theorem-applied-to-the-universe-prove-the-existence-of-God''Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy. And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe.'' This statement is simply wrong. Appeals to the incompleteness theorems in other fields[edit] Appeals and analogies are sometimes made to the incompleteness theorems in support of arguments that go beyond mathematics and logic. Several authors have commented negatively on such extensions and interpretations, including Torkel Franzén (2004); Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont (1999); and Ophelia Benson and Jeremy Stangroom (2006). Bricmont and Stangroom (2006, p. 10), for example, quote from Rebecca Goldstein's comments on the disparity between Gödel's avowed Platonism and the anti-realist uses to which his ideas are sometimes put. Sokal and Bricmont (1999, p. 187) criticize Régis Debray's invocation of the theorem in the context of sociology; Debray has defended this use as metaphorical (ibid.). Everything said in your article is plain wrong. Sigh... ok if you insist. Astargath you are both repeating yourself and making assertions that do not follow from your actual arguments. Although I have not read the work of Torkel Franzén, or Ophelia Benson from your quote it seems like they are simply disagreeing with the extension of incompleteness theorems beyond mathematics and logic. The fact that these authorities your appeal to have "commented negatively on such extensions" is not an actual argument. Commenting negatively on an argument does not prove it false any more then my commenting positively proves it true. Upthread I already noted that if you do not accept the fundamental premises of the Incompleteness argument (that the universe is rational, logical, and finite) then yes you can challenge Perry Marshal's conclusion. https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/You demonstrate your lack of a background in either logic or philosophy when you claim "Everything said in your article is plain wrong.", "This statement is simply wrong", and "No, no and no." Repeating yourself three times does not turn an unsupported assertion into a logical argument. To review: The Incompleteness theory of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. But… it IS proof that when constructing a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is 100% logical You seem to desperately want to feel that believing is God is entirely irrational. This seems to be an article of faith for you a "sacred truth" you insist on believing regardless of how torturous and unsubstantiated your arguments must become to defend it. Your problem is that belief in God is entirely logical and rational so your arguments are growing increasingly inconclusive and incoherent. Perhaps this link may be of use to you? How to Make a Logical Argumenthttps://www.google.com/amp/s/m.wikihow.com/Make-a-Logical-Argument%3Famp%3D1And how do you know Perry Marshal is right? He is a business consultant and has a degree in electrical engineering. How did you determine that what he said is right? You people are amazing, you read 1 article on the internet from some random dude and you fully believe it just because it makes your belief correct. Quote The Incompleteness of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. But… it IS proof that in order to construct a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is not just 100% logical… it’s necessary. Euclid’s 5 postulates aren’t formally provable and God is not formally provable either. But… just as you cannot build a coherent system of geometry without Euclid’s 5 postulates, neither can you build a coherent description of the universe without a First Cause and a Source of order. doesn't make sense if he really thinks about what he just said referenceing Godel. What does he mean by "coherent?" In the conventional useage, it means "understandable by most people," and in logical usage, it might mean exactly what Godel's theorum says is impossible: a closed logical loop, including all assumptions. Furthermore, not all descriptions of the universe that even postulate a "First Cause" find it necessary to invoke God, therefore that invokation is NOT 100% necessary. It may be for his particular version, and if that's the case, he's confusing himself between his favorite universal theory and all possible universal theories. Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle possibly can – around the whole universe. (If there are multiple universes, we’re drawing a circle around all of them too): • There has to be something outside that circle. Something which we have to assume but cannot prove As discussed, GIT doesn't imply the existence of things outside of a system - simply that the system can ask questions about itself that it can't answer. Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 26, 2011, 09:30PM • The universe as we know it is finite – finite matter, finite energy, finite space and 13.7 billion years time Bit of a dodgy (series of) assumption(s): 1) Even if you can't see any matter beyond a certain distance away, it doesn't mean that there isn't an infinite amount of empty space beyond that. Does the "groundsheet" of the universe extend outwards forever, just waiting for things to move onto it, or does it stop at some point? We don't know. 2) 13.7 billion years is the current age of the universe. The author has made the mistake of only considering past time, not future time. It is entirely possible that the universe will expand forever, resulting in so-called "heat death". Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 26, 2011, 09:30PM • The universe is mathematical. Any physical system subjected to measurement performs arithmetic. (You don’t need to know math to do addition – you can use an abacus instead and it will give you the right answer every time.) • The universe (all matter, energy, space and time) cannot explain itself Cannot do so completely. We've come a long way and will go a long way yet before we even have to think about consequences of GIT. Quote from: ddickerson on Mar 26, 2011, 09:30PM • Whatever is outside the biggest circle is boundless. By definition it is not possible to draw a circle around it. Nope. You just draw an infinitely big circle. Trivial logical error induced by carrying the metaphor of drawing a circle too far. See Godel's second theorem, which implies that any system that can prove its own completeness is by definition incomplete. You can read more problems here: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=55839.0;imodehttps://hozzaszolok.wordpress.com/2016/02/02/godels-incompleteness-theorem-or-what-perry-marshall-got-wrong/You can also read the comments pointing out where his assumptions were simply wrong in his website and other websites where he published his garbage ''argument''. He is simply wrong and just another religious guy attempting to prove god. |
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God does not need a scientific proof because science only talks about natural phenomenas. No science book can prove it. There are even some natural phenomena that science could not explain. That is why there is what we call the supernatural which is the evidences that God exists. If you are not religious, find a pastor that talks about the bible and does not focus on religion. Find a pastor that focuses on the bible. Whether you are a catholic like me or muslim or any religion. I know some of us are not that religious and think it is a waste of time. We waste our time in different nonsense things. We go to facebook, youtube and etc. We try many unuseful things in life and yet we cannot even try to connect with him. I have a simple tip. Whether you think it is just a brainwashing thing, whether you think it does not make you better. A day or an hour reading the bible or an hour of listening to your pastor talking. Just try and nothing will lose in your life. Sacrifice what's better here for the better life with him. Debates about religion won't find the answers. Find out yourself. Remember. Debates about it won't give answers. Imagine a world with people helping each other seeking for him. Thank you for reading. God loves you.
So what is the evidence for god again? |
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The difference between me and you is that you forgot to review your own arguments. If you had, you would have debunked them by default. Meh, took you all this time to come up with the same excuse You haven't taken enough time to review what you say objectively. Rather, you turn your ideas into religion for yourself, so that you can believe the things you want, rather than finding the truth objectively. How many of these bullshit responses do you have lol, just admit I beat you, my arguments destroyed yours. No need to cry, be a man and admit it. It's not a point of "beating" or "winning." The point is that of finding the truth. Treating science theory as fact when it is not known to be fact is not truth. Everything you have pointed out scientifically against the existence of God, and against the science law that proves God, is science theory. It isn't known to be factual, even if it is factual. Science law is what is known to be factual. Science law is what proves the existence of God. You see, my argument is against the way you use the laws to prove god, the laws themselves do not talk about god or the creator of the universe, even if they are factual. You state a few laws and then deduce/assume god existence with them, my argument shows why your deduction/assumption is wrong. So it doesn't matter whether the laws you use are factual or not. No. I show how the laws cannot exist together in a universe like ours without God. There is no assumption. The thing you constantly do is assume that I am assuming. You do it because you don't take the time to calculate the proof for God out. You try to show that but you are wrong as pointed out in my posts that you refute to answer to because, well, because you can't really, you know you can't, that's why you don't. Your refutations are assumptions or assumption based. You keep saying that but you never point them out, it makes you look like a fool. |
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The difference between me and you is that you forgot to review your own arguments. If you had, you would have debunked them by default. Meh, took you all this time to come up with the same excuse You haven't taken enough time to review what you say objectively. Rather, you turn your ideas into religion for yourself, so that you can believe the things you want, rather than finding the truth objectively. How many of these bullshit responses do you have lol, just admit I beat you, my arguments destroyed yours. No need to cry, be a man and admit it. It's not a point of "beating" or "winning." The point is that of finding the truth. Treating science theory as fact when it is not known to be fact is not truth. Everything you have pointed out scientifically against the existence of God, and against the science law that proves God, is science theory. It isn't known to be factual, even if it is factual. Science law is what is known to be factual. Science law is what proves the existence of God. You see, my argument is against the way you use the laws to prove god, the laws themselves do not talk about god or the creator of the universe, even if they are factual. You state a few laws and then deduce/assume god existence with them, my argument shows why your deduction/assumption is wrong. So it doesn't matter whether the laws you use are factual or not. No. I show how the laws cannot exist together in a universe like ours without God. There is no assumption. The thing you constantly do is assume that I am assuming. You do it because you don't take the time to calculate the proof for God out. You try to show that but you are wrong as pointed out in my posts that you refute to answer to because, well, because you can't really, you know you can't, that's why you don't. |
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Jesus speaking: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 28 Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, all earthly sins were paid for. All sins were forgiven. The first job of the Holy Spirit is to work faith in Jesus-salvation in the hearts of people so that they can believe and be saved. His subsequent jobs are to work living a good life in people. To whatever extent people resist the working of faith by the Holy Spirit, that is what they will never be forgiven for. Those who don't/can't resist the working of salvation faith in them by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, even though they resist the Spirit's teaching about living a good life to some extent. The extent to which they resist will never be forgiven them. The result will be less glory and praise and joy in Heaven for resisting the Holy Spirit in the living-a-good-life "minor" ways on earth. But they will be saved because they did not resist the Holy Spirit working salvation faith in their hearts. Their blasphemy of the Spirit was done in a way that did not negate their salvation, but only lessened their "status" or "position" in Heaven. Those who resist the working of salvation in their hearts that the holy Spirit is attempting to do... those people will lose salvation forever, because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for. The sins they did on earth have all been forgiven already by Jesus' work on the cross. They don't have any choice about that. It's their blaspheming against the Spirit by resisting Him that is not forgiven. And the extent that they blasphemed in their case is enough to keep them out of Heaven. It will never be changed. They will never be forgiven and saved. The sentence against them is forever. Hmm, so you are saying I can rape and kill people my whole life as long as I don't resist the holy spirit? I'm (probably) not the one who is going to stop you. But if you do it with enough vigor, your life will be short. EDIT: Your life might be long in prison. You'll get a lot of it back, there. But am I going to heaven or not? Are you really asking me that question? I don't really know what is in your heart, or what will happen to you in the future. But. I can tell you this much. It sure doesn't look like it, now. I'm asking because you posted this ''because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for'' Doesn't that mean that I can do a lot of bad things but as long as I dont resist the holy spirit I'm still going to heaven? I know. The explanation is a little deep for you. So, since you are asking piece by piece, I'll break it down a little for you. Doing bad things IS resisting the Holy Spirit. Using your example, above, if you rape and kill people with enough vigor, you will get prison or the chair. The amount of prison you actually get will never be taken away. Once you've been there for a year, nobody can give you that year back. That blasphemy of the Holy Spirit's instructions for living will never be forgiven. If, however, your former blasphemy, or the prison, doesn't cause you to resist the salvation of Jesus, you will still get Heaven. But your "status" in Heaven (all things else being equal) will be less than what it would have been if you hadn't done the raping and killing. Not because the raping and killing aren't forgiven by God, but because you resisted listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit when He was trying to tell you not to do it. As it is, by the things you post, it seems that you are entirely against even the idea of God existing. Will the Holy Spirit be able to work salvation in your heart right around your formal resistance? I don't know. But the Bible says very little chance. So, probably, no Heaven for you. What about babies that die prematurely, do they go to heaven directly? That would be unfair, no? What about all the people that could have existed and they don't? Your god doesn't make much logic, does he? |
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Jesus speaking: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 28 Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, all earthly sins were paid for. All sins were forgiven. The first job of the Holy Spirit is to work faith in Jesus-salvation in the hearts of people so that they can believe and be saved. His subsequent jobs are to work living a good life in people. To whatever extent people resist the working of faith by the Holy Spirit, that is what they will never be forgiven for. Those who don't/can't resist the working of salvation faith in them by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, even though they resist the Spirit's teaching about living a good life to some extent. The extent to which they resist will never be forgiven them. The result will be less glory and praise and joy in Heaven for resisting the Holy Spirit in the living-a-good-life "minor" ways on earth. But they will be saved because they did not resist the Holy Spirit working salvation faith in their hearts. Their blasphemy of the Spirit was done in a way that did not negate their salvation, but only lessened their "status" or "position" in Heaven. Those who resist the working of salvation in their hearts that the holy Spirit is attempting to do... those people will lose salvation forever, because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for. The sins they did on earth have all been forgiven already by Jesus' work on the cross. They don't have any choice about that. It's their blaspheming against the Spirit by resisting Him that is not forgiven. And the extent that they blasphemed in their case is enough to keep them out of Heaven. It will never be changed. They will never be forgiven and saved. The sentence against them is forever. Hmm, so you are saying I can rape and kill people my whole life as long as I don't resist the holy spirit? I'm (probably) not the one who is going to stop you. But if you do it with enough vigor, your life will be short. EDIT: Your life might be long in prison. You'll get a lot of it back, there. But am I going to heaven or not? Are you really asking me that question? I don't really know what is in your heart, or what will happen to you in the future. But. I can tell you this much. It sure doesn't look like it, now. I'm asking because you posted this ''because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for'' Doesn't that mean that I can do a lot of bad things but as long as I dont resist the holy spirit I'm still going to heaven? |
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The difference between me and you is that you forgot to review your own arguments. If you had, you would have debunked them by default. Meh, took you all this time to come up with the same excuse You haven't taken enough time to review what you say objectively. Rather, you turn your ideas into religion for yourself, so that you can believe the things you want, rather than finding the truth objectively. How many of these bullshit responses do you have lol, just admit I beat you, my arguments destroyed yours. No need to cry, be a man and admit it. It's not a point of "beating" or "winning." The point is that of finding the truth. Treating science theory as fact when it is not known to be fact is not truth. Everything you have pointed out scientifically against the existence of God, and against the science law that proves God, is science theory. It isn't known to be factual, even if it is factual. Science law is what is known to be factual. Science law is what proves the existence of God. You see, my argument is against the way you use the laws to prove god, the laws themselves do not talk about god or the creator of the universe, even if they are factual. You state a few laws and then deduce/assume god existence with them, my argument shows why your deduction/assumption is wrong. So it doesn't matter whether the laws you use are factual or not. |
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The difference between me and you is that you forgot to review your own arguments. If you had, you would have debunked them by default. Meh, took you all this time to come up with the same excuse You haven't taken enough time to review what you say objectively. Rather, you turn your ideas into religion for yourself, so that you can believe the things you want, rather than finding the truth objectively. How many of these bullshit responses do you have lol, just admit I beat you, my arguments destroyed yours. No need to cry, be a man and admit it. |
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Jesus speaking: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 28 Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, all earthly sins were paid for. All sins were forgiven. The first job of the Holy Spirit is to work faith in Jesus-salvation in the hearts of people so that they can believe and be saved. His subsequent jobs are to work living a good life in people. To whatever extent people resist the working of faith by the Holy Spirit, that is what they will never be forgiven for. Those who don't/can't resist the working of salvation faith in them by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, even though they resist the Spirit's teaching about living a good life to some extent. The extent to which they resist will never be forgiven them. The result will be less glory and praise and joy in Heaven for resisting the Holy Spirit in the living-a-good-life "minor" ways on earth. But they will be saved because they did not resist the Holy Spirit working salvation faith in their hearts. Their blasphemy of the Spirit was done in a way that did not negate their salvation, but only lessened their "status" or "position" in Heaven. Those who resist the working of salvation in their hearts that the holy Spirit is attempting to do... those people will lose salvation forever, because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for. The sins they did on earth have all been forgiven already by Jesus' work on the cross. They don't have any choice about that. It's their blaspheming against the Spirit by resisting Him that is not forgiven. And the extent that they blasphemed in their case is enough to keep them out of Heaven. It will never be changed. They will never be forgiven and saved. The sentence against them is forever. Hmm, so you are saying I can rape and kill people my whole life as long as I don't resist the holy spirit? I'm (probably) not the one who is going to stop you. But if you do it with enough vigor, your life will be short. EDIT: Your life might be long in prison. You'll get a lot of it back, there. But am I going to heaven or not? |
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Jesus speaking: 31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. 28 Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, all earthly sins were paid for. All sins were forgiven. The first job of the Holy Spirit is to work faith in Jesus-salvation in the hearts of people so that they can believe and be saved. His subsequent jobs are to work living a good life in people. To whatever extent people resist the working of faith by the Holy Spirit, that is what they will never be forgiven for. Those who don't/can't resist the working of salvation faith in them by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, even though they resist the Spirit's teaching about living a good life to some extent. The extent to which they resist will never be forgiven them. The result will be less glory and praise and joy in Heaven for resisting the Holy Spirit in the living-a-good-life "minor" ways on earth. But they will be saved because they did not resist the Holy Spirit working salvation faith in their hearts. Their blasphemy of the Spirit was done in a way that did not negate their salvation, but only lessened their "status" or "position" in Heaven. Those who resist the working of salvation in their hearts that the holy Spirit is attempting to do... those people will lose salvation forever, because they will never be forgiven for resisting the Holy Spirit, not because their earthly sins have not been paid for. The sins they did on earth have all been forgiven already by Jesus' work on the cross. They don't have any choice about that. It's their blaspheming against the Spirit by resisting Him that is not forgiven. And the extent that they blasphemed in their case is enough to keep them out of Heaven. It will never be changed. They will never be forgiven and saved. The sentence against them is forever. Hmm, so you are saying I can rape and kill people my whole life as long as I don't resist the holy spirit? |
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The difference between me and you is that you forgot to review your own arguments. If you had, you would have debunked them by default. Meh, took you all this time to come up with the same excuse |
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No, you haven't. You are always talking about ''god'' but you never specify which god or why the christian god is better than the other gods. Your argument simply says it's logical and rational to believe in ''god'' but which god and why the christian god?
First I highlighted how we can mathematically deduce The Incompleteness of the universe and logically conclude that whatever is outside the universe must be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852I next highlighted how religious thought specifically monotheism conceptualises God and how this conceptualisation is consistent with what we can mathematically deduce. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24187846#msg24187846I also demonstrated how traditional Biblical writings on the timeline of creation and origins of mankind can in fact be reconciled with modern scientific thought. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24374030#msg24374030I reviewed the limitations of reason in understanding infinity and the fact that our understanding of God must necessarily be a massive oversimplification. God can never truly be grasped through our mind as our mind is time-bound. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24330562#msg24330562Finally I noted the importance of truly drilling down to the foundations of ones metaphysical assumptions and how failure to do so was ceding control of ones actions, beliefs and thoughts to external forces. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg24418501#msg24418501If you had understood my arguments above you would realise that I already answered your questions. A single God is a logical necessity resulting from the proprieties of the indivisible and the infinite. What then can we say about the words of the Christian Priest versus the words of the Jewish Rabbi and the Islamic Imam? They must logically be attempting to describe the same infinite God. The Priest, Rabbi, and Imam are all human, imperfect, and finite so their truth and ours must necessarily be incomplete at best a pale reflection of the reality of God. Ok, let's start again. ''First I highlighted how we can mathematically deduce The Incompleteness of the universe and logically conclude that whatever is outside the universe must be boundless, immaterial, indivisible and an uncaused cause. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1373864.msg23796852#msg23796852'' No, no and no. Simply wrong. First of all you cannot even apply kurt godel theorem to the universe: https://www.quora.com/Can-G%C3%B6dels-incompleteness-theorem-applied-to-the-universe-prove-the-existence-of-God''Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy. And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe.'' This statement is simply wrong. Appeals to the incompleteness theorems in other fields[edit] Appeals and analogies are sometimes made to the incompleteness theorems in support of arguments that go beyond mathematics and logic. Several authors have commented negatively on such extensions and interpretations, including Torkel Franzén (2004); Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont (1999); and Ophelia Benson and Jeremy Stangroom (2006). Bricmont and Stangroom (2006, p. 10), for example, quote from Rebecca Goldstein's comments on the disparity between Gödel's avowed Platonism and the anti-realist uses to which his ideas are sometimes put. Sokal and Bricmont (1999, p. 187) criticize Régis Debray's invocation of the theorem in the context of sociology; Debray has defended this use as metaphorical (ibid.). Everything said in your article is plain wrong. |
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Look, I know you read a lot of bullshit books with a lot of bullshit words to justify your belief but the argument is simple, there is no logical argument to justify belief in your specific god instead of others.
The irony of course is that I just provided such an argument but those are just "bullshit words from bullshit books" right? It's much easier to simply repeat your "answer" over and over again. Your argument after all is simple.  No, you haven't. You are always talking about ''god'' but you never specify which god or why the christian god is better than the other gods. Your argument simply says it's logical and rational to believe in ''god'' but which god and why the christian god? |
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