...but hey, don't let the facts get in the way.
@CreativeX - you've been here long enough to know that this is how you're supposed to argue on the forums, don't 'cha know!  I do know...I just refuse to conform.  Now if you'll excuse me I have an afternoon of ripping tags off pillows planned. just use the ignore button for this kind of scum... ...but then I wouldn't get to read what you write?!? I loled at both the memes and your response. Facts so far are that neither company has really shipped their first batch and that we're (as a community) are greatly anticipating their shipments. Having said that, I really would like to see both companies succeed; having one source for mining gear is not preferably as it would leave too much power in the hands of the manufacturer. On that I think we can all agree on. |
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The discounts on future orders for those who ordered in July and August have been announced. First months orders will get 25% off a future order. (Order dates June 23rd - July 24th)
Second months orders will get 10% off a future order. (Order dates July 25th - August 25th)
The 25% and 10% apply up to the value of your original order(s).
Example 1: Original first month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $1500 worth of equipment, get $250 off the order.
Example 2: Original second month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $500 worth of equipment, get $50 off the order.
We are doing it this way to prevent abuse such as someone ordering a Jalapeno, then getting 25% off the next order and ordering a Mini Rig. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/984-%5Bcustomer-appreciation%5D-discount-early-orderers-2.html#post14168So much for "steep" discounts. Next, they will say they aren't bumping the speed up to 80GH/s for the extra 45day wait period. (Like they did for the first 45 days) I guess they came to their senses that if they gave a majority of their users a "real" steep discount, then they would have trouble covering the costs with Gen 2. |
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getting free hardware because you commit some code.
If you keep repeating this, it may become true! Maybe try tapping your heels together to increase the odds. Selective blindness is always interesting. |
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About time  About DAMN time So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products. MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later. If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed... You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit. Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture. Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices. The lower prices are due to mass volume production of other parts. Keep in mind BFL and Avalon are selling entire units. NOT single chips like those you cited. They (AMD, Intel etc) also sell hundreds of millions of units (chips) so the NRE costs are a tiny fraction of the total cost. Scale <--- makes the price come down. With ASIC's that is not the case. It is one batch for a few hundred people and only a number of wafers. (Up to a [low] multiple of 10,000 chips.) (Note: For example, BFL only did 6 wafers for around ~6000~ ASIC chips in their first batch) The cases and the rest of the components do not come down in price unless they establish a long term contract for the same parts. (in other words, not a single run) This is basic economics of scale. It should be extremely obvious. Interesting change of subject. You were speaking about nm scale production costs. You said "You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. " Which is incorrect. It should be extremely obvious. Wow, So then answer this: Why didn't BFL go for 45nm technology from the start? Any guesses? Edit: I think I understand your confusion. You think I am talking about the ASIC chips only and not the entire unit. NO, I am referring to the entire unit. No ASIC company to date sells their chips like an AMD or Intel. Adding NRE costs to a smaller nm does increase the number of chips. But if done wrong usually results in less viable chips due to tiny defects. AMD or Intel use binning and scale to get around that issue. As far as I know, I dont' see BFL or Avalon using binning techniques. |
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Consider putting up for sale a 45nm ASIC. (Unit/powersupply/ASIC chips and all misc components.)
You are going to pay the design cost AND the mask etc.
Do you think it will cost you less or more to do business if you are only selling 5,000 units to a small community?
---------------------------
Now do the same only with 30,000,000 units. The price goes down, not up.
Everyone down the line has a contract with you in the latter scenario. Your costs go down as you buy parts in [true] bulk. Your quoted material costs per unit go down significantly compared to a tiny order.
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About time About DAMN time So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products. MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later. If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed... You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit. Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture. Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices. The lower prices are due to mass volume production of other parts. Keep in mind BFL and Avalon are selling entire units. NOT single chips like those you cited. They (AMD, Intel etc) also sell hundreds of millions of units (chips) so the NRE costs are a tiny fraction of the total cost. Scale <--- makes the price come down. With ASIC's that is not the case. It is one batch for a few hundred people and only a number of wafers. (Up to a [low] multiple of 10,000 chips.) (Note: For example, BFL only did 6 wafers for around ~6000~ ASIC chips in their first batch) The cases and the rest of the components do not come down in price unless they establish a long term contract for the same parts. (in other words, not a single run) This is basic economics of scale. It should be extremely obvious. |
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About time About DAMN time So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products. MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later. If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed... You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit. |
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From what I understand you actually have to have a binary... do you know anybody who has the binary? Perhaps the demand should come from that person instead.
I don't see why they have to redistribute anything, if the hardware hasn't been delivered. It might even be shipped with the unit... who knows!
Let me quote their own announcement: We shipped, website will be updated shortly.
First unit goes to Jeff Garzik in honor for the work he has done for the bitcoin codebase being the only developer who ordered from us.
Yes, they shipped binaries 20 days ago, and have yet to release the source code for it. That is in clear violation of the license. - source code will release 30 days to comply to an infringement notice from a copyright holder.
Furthermore, they are well aware that they are in violation of the license, yet they are chosing not to comply. Keep in mind Jeff actually has to ask for them to be in violation of it. In either case, it will be resolved over the weekend per Yifu's statements. |
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If you look at what ngzhang has committed to the open source community, if you look at his youtube videos... from what I can see is a company/organization that is actually making a difference, unlike some others that appears to be in it for (more) personal gain.
What is the link to his YouTube account? |
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As they use 65nm, that means it has alot of layers. (More Layers = More Days to deposit them)
It may be a while until they reach the newer orders. The current speculation is that they can cover most orders up till August 2012. BFL Customer Service mentioned some of the newer orders may be delivered to customer as late as May 2013.
September til February orders will have to wait for some time.
Hopefully they will also provide steep discount vouchers or coupons for later customers if this does turn out to be the case. If you ordered in July 2012 and waited till February 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product. If you ordered in August 2012 and waited till February 2013, it is 6 months to receive a BFL product. If you ordered in September 2012 and waited till March 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product. If you ordered in October 2012 and waited till April 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product. If you ordered in November 2012 and waited till May 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product. etc.. |
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Remember that a bag of chips is always half-empty... at best Exactly. After seeing how Avalon has only shipped 2 of the 300 units, I doubt BFL is going to have all 6,000. I am going to speculate that BFL ate through a good portion of the batches/Wafers they had on standby to get to this point. As they use 65nm, that means it has alot of layers. (More Layers = More Days to deposit them) It may be a while until they reach the newer orders. The current speculation is that they can cover most orders up till August 2012. BFL Customer Service mentioned some of the newer orders may be delivered to customer as late as May 2013. September til February orders will have to wait for some time. -------------------- It is pretty much a repeat of what happened with the FPGA products. (Well not with the power consumption issues...one hopes.) |
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Yeah, that's a GPL-v2 thing, not v3. Only those that actually receive the binary code can request it.
Your summery is pretty accurate, except for the fact that Kano can't request the source code, as he's not a customer, and I believe a Mod split this thread out of another one. I do love how they use cgminer software, and then bitch at a CGMiner dev for getting involved. Really?  Nevermind, it was answered previously. |
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Did a business seriously start a public thread just to taunt the (volunteer) developer of their software platform? With friends like these, who needs enemies...
Summary of events:
1) Avalon wants miner software, decides cgminer is a good platform and decides to use it (OK)
2) cgminer's developer asks for hardware so he can properly include it in cgminer (OK)
3) Avalon declines the offer (OK) and finds someone else to code it (OK)
4) Avalon shipped devices with binary code (OK)
5) The cgminer developer requests source code via 6b of GPL-v3. (OK) [EDIT: kano might not have rights to request the code, only those that received the binaries may. If, however, someone emails kano the binary - he may then request the source from the intermediary who must request it from Avalon]
6) Avalon has 30 days to remedy the situation (section 8 GPL-v3, OK)
7) Avalon drags feet as to not give a competitive advantage to competitors (OK), cites "technical" reasons but it doesn't matter, they can just drag their feet.
Why taunt Kano? Fulfill the request (or be liable to legal action) and take care of customers - what's the point of this thread?
Again, a low count poster who didn't follow along and realized that the moderator did a thread split. Is the 30days from someone who recieved the binary and makes the request? Or is the 30 days applicable from the day of releasing the binary to someone who doesn't have a right to ask for the source code. (not even a customer, did not receive the binary, ?therefore can't make it a request on legitimate grounds?) When does the clock start running and what is the basis at which it starts the 30 day limit? I actually do not know, that is why I am asking. |
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Feb-2 Hey Josh, P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well, damn shame You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit? Are you starting a whole thread just to start a fight with Kano? Fuck off you loser. you should get down on your knees and suck the man off for the software development he has done for the bitcoin community. You just told off a moderator. It was a moderator who did that. |
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My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support." Start crackin' on asking for those donations from the community. That will resolve your issues. You are clearly aware of this as a "requirement". Now it is up to you to resolve the issue with purchasing of hardware. Don't wait for it to come to you, start asking for donations. Lots of people in the linux and other open source communities do that for the developers. People say they respect you quite a bit for your work. So show them there is a need and ask them to provide it for you. Or be nicer to Yifu and ask nicely for a discount after asking for donations to purchase the required hardware. ----------------------- Your ultimate "spin" on this topic is that you need to be provided with hardware. Well, you can very easily come half way and get the hardware. Perhaps they will extend a discount for your purchase as a developer. It doesn't have to come "to you" out of an implied sense of entitlement. I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know. Ask for donations. You are a critical programmer of cgminer are you not? Do you not have the support of the community? My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"
So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into
Work out a plan with Yifu. Have you ever tried beyond..."Well, you know, I need hardware to program on" Followed by a: "Well, you don't expect me to work for free." ---------------------- Kano, your an excellent programmer but your applied "spin" on veiled demands needs some fixes. |
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Could it be this simple?
Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted. Memory leak? who knows.
Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?
Just a thought, but does that sound about right? Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says. He literally repeats what he has said already in the past. Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above. The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same. What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it? Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes. He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why? No, if you had even half a brain, you would have bothered to read the comments I made back then. Anyone can see that I'm actually also saying that they don't really even need me to do it. I have a habit of writing posts/PMs like that with too much info in them that can say, yes you don't need my help. So just in case you have some deficiency that makes clicking on links and reading difficult, I'll quote it here: Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support.
If you are going to support all the cgminer requests regarding your changes then that covers one part of it, but if we start getting support requests regarding the software and have no hardware to run it on, then at least some of those support requests are just going to be sent to you.
Every time changes go into cgminer, if we have no hardware to test the changes we can of course not be sure of the effect of those changes on different hardware.
Rarely will it be an issue, but when it is an issue, if we have no hardware, the answer is: well that's unfortunate.
I am stating the obvious, but I thought I better say it here anyway.
Now as most people already know: both BFL and bASIC are sending devs (us and others) hardware to get it working in time for release
(BFL has also stated they are flying me to the USA and yochdog across the USA to see their manufacturing and report to the community)
You seem to want to do the software yourself, but just realise that you may also end up being the ones to support it if only you have the hardware ...
As I said "I am stating the obvious" and I'd wonder where that quote says "You must send me an Avalon" Feel free to point it out ... I can't see it and I can't remember saying it ... That above is the quote that even BitSyncom calls ...
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.
Good day.
My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said "Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support." I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware? I don't know. My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware. It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it" That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious" So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into ... I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level. Yeah I'm not sure why you need to be a google expert to actually check your posts are true ... in your case yeah just misrepresent the facts and blame not being smart enough to use google ... I noticed you added links to my and Bitsyncom posts. But you seemingly quoted yours without links. In either case, I already read those. |
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Could it be this simple?
Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted. Memory leak? who knows.
Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?
Just a thought, but does that sound about right? Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says. He literally repeats what he has said already in the past. Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above. The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same. What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it? Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes. He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why? Well, again - Avalon runs well, then restarts every 24 hours. That would frustrate the hell out of me, as it'd be so easy for me to help out if I were Kano. I am not Kano, but I could imagine. We elected Kano as one of the representatives to be invited by BFL to visit its facility, due to his ability to discern a scam and to possibly test the SC line of hardware himself. At this point, BFL is obviously not a scam. By the way, I notice that Kano's avatar has changed. Is that why you called him "the samurai toting ninja?"  I also notice that your avatar has changed to one that does not include the words "Avalon Asic" or a picture of an Avalon Asic. Any reason for that? I was just changing my avatars since several people were doing it as well. That and I was literally drinking coke as I looked up the picture. |
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Could it be this simple?
Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted. Memory leak? who knows.
Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?
Just a thought, but does that sound about right? Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says. He literally repeats what he has said already in the past. Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above. The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same. What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it? Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes. He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why? |
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...
Moral of the story, if you want to engage in programming AND be COMPENSATED. Sign a contract. Don't posture and pester someone. Then get angry and enrage in revisionist forum history to make yourself look better.
You don't understand what the open source community contributions are about. You want compensation. Whether subtle or blatant. Find donors, collect some bitcoins. Be nice to Yifu and get it paid off.
Or sign a contract where he and you agree on an expected level of service.
Before you say that not how it is, keep in mind the machine you wanted sent to you (for free) and for development purposes is also compensating you every day with Bitcoins on an ongoing basis.
Pay the man, or sign a contract for a specific guarantee, or at least be nice enough to let him bribe you. If it were possible at this stage.
Moral of the story, don't quote any posts anywhere on the forum and you can then pretend anything you say is true and make up anything you like. Go read that link and what I said there and after it, instead of making up shit and proving your an idiot. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1317892#msg1317892What do I look like, a search engine? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=36044;sa=showPostsThere, anyone can go read it themselves. For best context, they should look through the threads and read each post with responses and replies. |
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A story of a whimsical relationship between one ASIC manufacturer and an unrequited (left wanting) software developer.
<Key scene in the public washroom (Asia style)>:
Kano: You know, I would love to code for Avalon.
Yifu: I bet you would. <Eyeball Kano for 5 seconds.>
Kano: You know, if I find an Avalon unit under my towel in the dressing room I just might keep and maintain code for it.
Yifu: <Scrubs his own back ignoring him.> I think we've got it covered.
Kano: You can scrub my back, I'll scrub yours?
<Kano waits for 10 minutes...nothing happens.>
<Yifu gets up afterwards and walks to the dressing room.>
<Key Kano throwing a hissy fit.>: I can't believe you won't send me an Avalon! How dare you?! ^&*^&*(
Yifu: Sorry, but we already have someone we paid for the software side of things. I simply do not need your "help" at this time.
Kano: Damn you! Do you expect me to work for freee?! I scratch you back, you scratch mine! Don't you understand you New Yorker!?
Yifu: WTF? Man, I don't need your help.
Kano: WTH? Didn't you just see me try to pressure you into leaving an Avalon under the towel?
Yifu: Look, if we need contracted labor we can pay for it. Right now, Xianfu (sorry I forgot his name) already has us covered for development.
Kano: You don't understand, I will keep developing software for you as long as you give me hardware! WTF don't you understand? Where is your source code?
Yifu: Look we will release it soon. Thats all.
Kano: NO you WON'T. I know you WON"T. READ the GPLv3 mutha...^&*^&*! You don't have a choice, give it to me NOW.
Kano: I know what going on here; You paid this xianfu in Avalons didn't you?!
Yifu: Look sir, don't speculate you don't know our contractual arrangements.
Yifu: Further, we will release it soon enough.
Kano: That is why you (Avalon) are such washed up has beens! You don't understand that if you just put the damn Avalon's under my Towel like I asked you to, you would be covered. Maybe...if I feel like it.
Kano: You guys suck!
Yifu: Look, we can give out units to those we think would appreciate it. So ^&*^ off.
-------------------
<Key scene of the top of a building and Kano wielding a rusty sword high in the sky. Ranting and raving>
Kano: I never asked outright for an Avalon. And you know what? I don't want one! I never asked for one. I WOULD HAVE...POSSIBLY, if I felt like it....provided labor for the price of an Avalon.
Kano: No obligations though!
------------------
Moral of the story, if you want to engage in programming AND be COMPENSATED. Sign a contract. Don't posture and pester someone. Then get angry and enrage in revisionist forum history to make yourself look better.
You don't understand what the open source community contributions are about. You want compensation. Whether subtle or blatant. Find donors, collect some bitcoins. Be nice to Yifu and get it paid off.
Or sign a contract where he and you agree on an expected level of service.
Before you say that not how it is, keep in mind the machine you wanted sent to you (for free) and for development purposes is also compensating you every day with Bitcoins on an ongoing basis.
Pay the man, or sign a contract for a specific guarantee, or at least be nice enough to let him bribe you. If it were possible at this stage.
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