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3941  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitCoins for Edward Snowden. on: June 23, 2013, 02:05:18 PM
Snowden on the move
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks
3942  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 23, 2013, 06:10:21 AM
If there someday occurs these matrilinial autark communities, there may simultaneously exist other communities which are different.  When these communities collide, there will possibly be some sort of dispute.  Resolving that dispute without violence or worse might be a goal.  If the collision happens to be with a community that does engage in trade (even if the autarks dont) understanding the principles of the other may serve them well.

The traders approach and roll out their tinkers wagon to start hawking their wares.
Maybe the autarks say "we have nothing extra, we are autarks".
The traders may say, "well, look at these nifty seeds, and try this tasty drink.
The autarks reply "no, we have what we need and nothing to offer, all is for all"
And the traders say "check out this self maintaining robot that eats garbage, it will save you an hour a day, and by the way I really like that hat over there, can I give you this robot as a gift?"
And the autarks say "the hat is not mine, all is for all"

The trader leaves the robot and takes the hat,
Later some of the autarks find a use for the robot to reduce their toiling and both are pleased with themselves for adhering to their principles and go on their way.
3943  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitCoins for Edward Snowden. on: June 23, 2013, 05:46:04 AM
Just because I call Snowden out as a treasonous liar doesn't mean I support unconstitutional actions by my government.

Treason requires helping a foreign nation.  Which nation are you alleging he is helping, making war against or seriously injuring the US to the benefit of...?
Does this seriously hurt the USA?  It looks like most seem to be taking it in stride.
I'd guess the AG will go after a lesser crime, easier to prove, but which might still warrant extradition.

However if he is exposing unlawful activity, as some in the US congress have stated, then he may have some sort of immunity.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
3944  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: New service for the bitcoin community (Bitcoin to cash with zero fees) on: June 22, 2013, 11:43:50 PM
No, trusted escrow.  I think the sellers send the BTC to broker, then buyer deposits to seller's account, then BTC are released to buyer after confirmation from seller.  So the only trust to seller is accurate confirmation.  
Buyer supplies evidence of the purchase to escrow so escrow can do dispute resolution.
Or at least that is how it seemed to work in the one transaction I did.

I will likely do more on Monday when banks open if there are BTC up for sale.
3945  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 22, 2013, 06:34:59 PM
The July 4 Rainbow Gathering in Montana looks delightful.  Montana summers are some of the best I've had with many fond memories of picking some fresh raspberries that the deer missed, and pulling the occasional rainbow trout out of Flathead Lake. 

*audible sigh of longing* thankyou...
Can you give me a rundown of this lex mercatoria buisiness?
A history perhaps?

Simply put, it is the non-violent non-governmental dispute resolution process used in trade.  
Though in places where governments arise, they tend to usurp it as their authority.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria

lex mercatoria is about as old as commerce, and there is evidence of it as old as there is writing.  Sumarians had a form of it more than 4K years ago.

It has been most useful for places where there are different cultures mixing, and each culture may have different "house rules" for how trade is conducted.

When you look at the Trust system that is evolving here, it mirrors it tightly. 
The claim that it is dead is a weird one.  Or maybe just extremely picky.  As if something which arises everywhere they care to look doesn't exist simply because the language used to describe it is a different one.  One might as well claim that love is dead because folks aren't building temples to Venus.
Call it lex mercatoria, call it the code of Ur, or in modern America, binding arbitration.  A time traveler would find enough similarity to be less confused than many of its critics here.

Though Montana beckons, my little farm would not do well without my attendance.  I'd have to attract some help with that to gain enough freedom for me to attend.  The rest of today is going to be absorbed by fixing my well, so I will leave you in the good hands of the wit-battlers.
3946  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 22, 2013, 04:15:34 PM
OK, so you have less iconoclasm and more "willful misunderstanding". 
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
What's your basis for claiming intellectual superiority in this battle of wits? Maybe you're wilfully misunderstanding what crumbs was saying? Mercatosaurus Lex got a Darwin award, Homo Governmentus took over. The end. Seems easy enough. If you'd seen "Jurassic Park" then you'd know that all sorts of bad stuff happens when people try to resurrect dinosaurs. Grin
I make no claim to superior intellect.  Nor do I claim to be engaging in a battle of wits.  If you are looking for a battle of wits, look elsewhere. I am only looking to better understand.
In a dialog, folks often re-characterize the statements of their interlocutor in order to show that they understand the intent of the statement.
Willful misunderstanding is evident when the re-characterizations are consistently the opposite or orthagonal. I suspect this is rewarding for him in some way, but the only meaningful response is to be pedantic which is tiring and with a wit-battler, and generally fruitless, so I am happy to let others do that.

Lex mercatoria is not dead as evidenced by its use in bitcointalk.org (and most anywhere there is trade). Contract law is not dead, quite the contrary it thrives.  Further to that, increasingly it is engaged without direct government engagement through binding arbitration.  So the trend (at least in the USA) is toward MORE lex mercatoria, rather than less.  This is sensible as it is less expensive for all to have a smaller government footprint in places where it has overstepped.
The claim that the existing large governments use of the lex merc principles means that it is dead/extinct/dinosaur, is as absurd as claiming that math is dead because there are now computers. 
I am not seeking to convince anyone of anything and I deeply appreciate thoughtful refutations and being shown where my thought has failed.  When apparently intelligent folks take these thoughts, ignore them, and attack thoughts which are not mine, it is not my responsibility to corral those folks and attempt to get them to attack mine instead.  As much as I'd prefer that, I am very happy to let them run off on their own and enjoy themselves.


The July 4 Rainbow Gathering in Montana looks delightful.  Montana summers are some of the best I've had with many fond memories of picking some fresh raspberries that the deer missed, and pulling the occasional rainbow trout out of Flathead Lake. 
3947  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: New service for the bitcoin community (Bitcoin to cash with zero fees) on: June 22, 2013, 03:11:25 PM
Does the site list how many BTC are bought with each US$10?
3948  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 22, 2013, 05:18:26 AM
Did you go to the site?  This guy is not a conservative or arguing how government is making trade less effective.  He is praising the state, and how it is necessary for society to function.
I did.  Had a hard time taking it seriously though.  Seemed more like it should be on Onion for all the sense it made.
Poe's Law in effect.  He actually, truly believes this stuff.

It bizarrely assumes that because a government does something, that it could not be done without it (even things that were done quite well before they were monopolized by government).  It is sort of a mix between Candide and "learned helplessness".
3949  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitCoins for Edward Snowden. on: June 22, 2013, 12:17:43 AM
And then there is Bitcoin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhR1bI7ecT8
3950  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 11:23:08 PM

When i say "didn't work," i mean just that.  It failed so badly that it necessitated a whole new layer of laws, states,  etc. -- all the stuff you hate (and i'm not a fan of either).
In other words, it couldn't protect itself from being displaced by new, less attractive & more oppressive law, it failed to protect itself from impingement by governments, states, whatever you want to call "what is."
Edit:  And there's nothing to suggest that this time it'll be any different Smiley
Edit2:  Healthcare?  Not seeing the parallels.  If you were calling us to abandon antibiotics, give up on sterilization & go back to using herbs & spices, then the analogy becomes sound Cheesy

I'm not the one saying it failed when it hasn't. (likewise with healthcare)  But nice try attempting to put those words in my mouth.

Wait, what?  If that was the case, you'd be right & i wouldn't argue.  It's not.  You claim it worked, so i'm having a hard time seing where all the opressive new shitlaw came from?

Quote
It still exists.  It still works.  That it was adopted by other bigger entities doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  It was and is the norm of human interaction in a marketplace.

Yep.  So everything that's happening right now, according to you, is just peachy -- all's according to lex mercatoria, right?  So WTF is there to complain about?  I'm glad things worked out to your liking.  Enjoy.

Quote
Since you aren't seeing the parallels, I'll try another.
Math was adopted and used by folks to make catapults and hydrogen bombs.  Maybe I don't like those things, but that doesn't mean that the fault is math.

Sure thing.  Math still works, just like lex mercatoria still works.  But just like your lex mercatoria is no longer the only law, simple math is no longer the sufficient.  It has been expanded and built upon, just like today's oppressive laws were built on your lex mercatoria.  Sorry, the abacus is just not cutting it anymore, and even Crays are obsolete.  Dig what i'm sayin'?

Quote
Lets flip it...
Maybe you like anarchy.  Then someone calling himself an anarchist throws a molotov cocktail and hits an innocent bystander burning her and her unborn child to death.  So anarchy as a philosophy is a failure, right?  It failed to protect them.

If Anarchy was widespread, and got displaced by other social/economic/power systems, than hell yeah, no matter if children got killed by molotovs or not!  It failed to survive -- it's provably falsifiable, it failed & thus may fail again.  *If nothing else, it is not fail-proof.*

Quote
I like your iconoclasm, but you are missing the mark on this.

 Huh

Edit: typo.

OK, so you have less iconoclasm and more "willful misunderstanding". 
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
3951  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 08:06:37 PM
Did you go to the site?  This guy is not a conservative or arguing how government is making trade less effective.  He is praising the state, and how it is necessary for society to function.
I did.  Had a hard time taking it seriously though.  Seemed more like it should be on Onion for all the sense it made.
3952  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: What exactly is the reason bitcoin processes transactions so slowly? on: June 21, 2013, 07:19:32 PM
Alright, so maybe Bitcoin clears faster than any other financial mechanism ever, then Smiley
Gold coins in person.
3953  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 06:57:59 PM

When i say "didn't work," i mean just that.  It failed so badly that it necessitated a whole new layer of laws, states,  etc. -- all the stuff you hate (and i'm not a fan of either).
In other words, it couldn't protect itself from being displaced by new, less attractive & more oppressive law, it failed to protect itself from impingement by governments, states, whatever you want to call "what is."
Edit:  And there's nothing to suggest that this time it'll be any different Smiley
Edit2:  Healthcare?  Not seeing the parallels.  If you were calling us to abandon antibiotics, give up on sterilization & go back to using herbs & spices, then the analogy becomes sound Cheesy

I'm not the one saying it failed when it hasn't. (likewise with healthcare)  But nice try attempting to put those words in my mouth.
It still exists.  It still works.  That it was adopted by other bigger entities doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  It was and is the norm of human interaction in a marketplace.

Since you aren't seeing the parallels, I'll try another.
Math was adopted and used by folks to make catapults and hydrogen bombs.  Maybe I don't like those things, but that doesn't mean that the fault is math.

Lets flip it...
Maybe you like anarchy.  Then someone calling himself an anarchist throws a molotov cocktail and hits an innocent bystander burning her and her unborn child to death.  So anarchy as a philosophy is a failure, right?  It failed to protect them.

I like your iconoclasm, but you are missing the mark on this.
3954  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 05:52:58 PM
[...]
Wait, so if lex mercatoria works so well ... what happened to it?  Shouldn't it still be around?  If it's not good enough to protect itself from vanishing, what makes you think it'll be good enough for your property?
Have you not noticed?
It is pretty much exactly the mechanism used in this forum.
It seems to form almost spontaneously where there is trade without state intervention.
I noticed that it used to be much more widespread than ... this forum & this forum ain't even a coon's age yet Cheesy
So, how is it working / not-working for you?  Do you need more government?
Can't say fer shoo, but isn't repeating the thing that didn't work out called "batshit crazy"?

When you say "didn't work" what exactly do you mean?
lex merc is the foundation of all contract law worldwide today.  It existed without states and with them equally well.

That would be like saying health care doesn't work because governments also do it.  Weird eh?
3955  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 05:35:15 PM
A Stable Money Supply - Widespread commerce and a stable economy both require a stable and dependable money system – one in which consumers and merchants have faith. This can only be provided and maintained by the federal government.

This one particularly stood out as a bit absurd to be suggested here, and to me.
3956  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 05:20:12 PM
[...]
Wait, so if lex mercatoria works so well ... what happened to it?  Shouldn't it still be around?  If it's not good enough to protect itself from vanishing, what makes you think it'll be good enough for your property?

Have you not noticed?
It is pretty much exactly the mechanism used in this forum.
It seems to form almost spontaneously where there is trade without state intervention.


I noticed that it used to be much more widespread than ... this forum & this forum ain't even a coon's age yet Cheesy

So, how is it working / not-working for you?  Do you need more government?
3957  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 05:10:33 PM
How does capitalism require a state?
To protect your property.
If I'm happy to let lex mercatoria suffice for that, have you anything else?  Seems pretty thin grounds for capitalism's need of a state.

Maybe it does require one, but I don't see how.  
If it does, that is a place where work is needed to reduce the burden on that requirement, and thereby lower the costs for human interaction.

The governmentisgood site looks more like arguments for how government has interfered with free trade and made it less effective.  
A list of how government has attacked free trade is not much of a requirement for government from free trade.  

Wait, so if lex mercatoria works so well ... what happened to it?  Shouldn't it still be around?  If it's not good enough to protect itself from vanishing, what makes you think it'll be good enough for your property?

Have you not noticed?
It is pretty much exactly the mechanism used in this forum.
It seems to form almost spontaneously where there is trade without state intervention.
3958  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 04:58:21 PM
How does capitalism require a state?
To protect your property.
If I'm happy to let lex mercatoria suffice for that, have you anything else?  Seems pretty thin grounds for capitalism's need of a state.

Maybe it does require one, but I don't see how.  
If it does, that is a place where work is needed to reduce the burden on that requirement, and thereby lower the costs for human interaction.

The governmentisgood site looks more like arguments for how government has interfered with free trade and made it less effective.  
A list of how government has attacked free trade is not much of a requirement for government from free trade.  
3959  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 04:03:54 PM
Is it necessary that an entity that tells you what is private/personal and what is public be a state?  
The dichotomy is a false one and wouldn't exist in the first place.

Forgive my ignorance as I can not see what you are thinking about.
Do you refer to the state/non-state dichotomy, the private/public dichotomy, or something else?
This is less of an answer than I'd hoped for to a claim that begs the question. 

Let us start again and see if we can get to a slightly less circular reasoning answer.  How does capitalism require a state?
3960  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Capitalism. on: June 21, 2013, 03:04:44 PM
unlike what most US Libertarians want to believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Quote
private or corporate ownership of capital goods
[...]
private decision

that's why you need a state in capitalism, because you need an entity that tells you what's private and what's public.

true anarchism does not need property rights.  Kiss

Is it necessary that an entity that tells you what is private/personal and what is public be a state?  
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