PuertoLibre... you have surpassed your past stupdity by leaps and bounds. I simply can't argue any more with your brand of stupid. If you want to go on believing, in the face of thousands of documents to the contrary, that China does not have an IP protection problem, you go right on ahead. Everyone else here and literally EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD knows it's a problem. Even China knows it a problem and is trying to fix it (you even linked to it) but in your typical fashion, you deny the facts and just go with your own brand of fantasy. You are, truly and in every sense of the word, an idiot.
My position is that it is a problem everywhere. China is no exception nor even exceptional. Again, pick up on the not so subtle hints of what is written, Josh. FOCUSING in on the Chinese people and remarking that they have a serious IP problem is tantamount to denying the rest of the world (including your own homeland) are somehow in a less serious condition. The first thought that crossed my mind (as apparently it did in other readers) "is this guy serious?" It was a discriminatory shot aimed at the Avalon Team based on their nationality. Reducing (perhaps a dozen) individuals into a stereotype with intent on exclusivity. -------------------------- Example, That is like me saying "those Russians" have a problem with "abandoned children" on the streets. (As if the rest of the world doesn't?) I'd have to ask myself (if I were intelligent enough) why am I focusing in on one nationality? Is this a problem of perspective or a problem rooted in racial stereotyping? Are they "Human" [same as me] or are they particularly more degenerate in some way? Perhaps they love their children less and therefore abandon them frequently? Look, this statistic says it is so! Those loveless Russians! It is a slippery slope of stupidity. Make sure you don't go down hill like a simpleton. |
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Kaerf and PuertoLibre, you two are the only ones focusing in on people. I made mention of Chinese IP laws (or lack thereof, or lack of enforcement, take your pick) and made absolutely no mention of people. How the two of you go from this: but it's not like China has a great track record when it comes to IP and copyrights. If they did release it without the source, realistically, what is the recourse? Pretty much zip. to OMG RACISM! is truly a mystery, and one best left unplumbed I would wager. I'm frightened as to what I might find in the minds of people who can't connect two simple dots sitting right next to each other. China does enforce IP laws. You are the only one who seemingly lost on this point. This is like Yifu saying Americans don't respect IP laws because they had <Napster/Scour/Fill in 30 plus others> then quoting a statistic. Common man, get off that high horse, it's a "general people" problem...not a nation in particular. Your proposal that the Chinese (or their governments) don't honor IP laws is out of touch with reality. You can play the poll/statistics game to give any side of an argument the advantage. Even up to two people citing completely contradictory points and still call both perfectly valid. PS - Last I recall the Chinese Government was working pretty hard to crack down on IP violations and piracy in their hopeful admittance to the WTO (World Trade Organization) and becoming a member of something...which I do not recall what it was anymore. Why would they be doing this if it's not a huge problem in China? If it was just as rampant all over the world, how could they be rejected from the WTO on those grounds and why would they need to curb it? Logic fail. Slow poke, learn to actually read what positions others take. I have taken the position that it is a General issue of Humanity. I never took the position that they don't have an IP problem. (So does America, Europe...etc) I even went as far as pointing out the concept of IP issues being present _Everywhere_. From individuals to Corporations.(Yes Josh, this includes all regions on Earth; yes even in orbit!). Some space faring astronaughts bring their MP3's in their vast silence of space. (LOL, not kidding on this) The Onus is on you to prove that the Chinese people are somehow different (?or especially pirate prone?) than the rest of Humanity. If you are willing to go with that argument I think BFL would dump you before we are even 72 hours into 2013. The smart thing to do would be to apologize for any misunderstandings you might have caused. Have you ever downloaded an [illegal] MP3? Well, does that mean our American Government doesn't [?effectively?] enforce IP laws? Do you know what the actual enforcement rate is for piracy? I mentioned that point early on. Did you notice at the beginning I stated that Americans along with other multi-nationals groups produced the main tools used in Piracy? Josh you are a hopeless fellow. You don't even know when to call a "Logic Fail". Don't stop trying though. |
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Here is a good example: There was once a company called CoreCodec who had designed the fastest H.264 decoder. They opened some of the code if I recall correctly. Then they stopped and closed sourced it. The open source folks used their designs to incorporate some of the techniques and to gather ideas as to how it was done. The Open Source folks progressive efforts eventually paid off (through hard work) and eventually designed better decoders with higher efficiency. That lead to widespread adoption of H.264 which until then was very near impossible to play on a normal PC without serious stuttering in the picture and playback. That spawned off dedicated "encoders" who worked with the pirates to rip thousands and thousands of movies into a highly compressed and efficient formats using the [open source] H.264 encoders and decoders. That spawned alot of the big companies use of Online Video. ---------------------- The Closed Source company tried to sue the open source people a few times under the allegations of stealing IP. The Open Source folks laughed at them (some of the time) because they found out through reverse engineering of the software that they cut many corners to achieve their incredible performance. (Lots of allegations abound) The closed source company CoreCodec eventually went on to sell their codec software and (I think) they were sufficiently successful. But what did they find when they went CES? (You know, where BFL is demoing non-existent ASICs) They found that quite a few demo'ing companies in the other booths were using derivatives of their software. How did they know this? They figured it out because they put in easter eggs in their own software. While playing with the demonstration software, several companies were found to be using their IP....without payment...at CES. They first asked and later persued some of them for misappropriation of their IP. ------------------------------ Big or small, corporate or individual, some people do not honor IP. It's not a Chinese issue. It is all over the world. Last I recall the Chinese Government was working pretty hard to crack down on IP violations and piracy in their hopeful admittance to the WTO (World Trade Organization) and becoming a member of something...which I do not recall what it was anymore. Edit: Forgot what the WTO was called. It's been years! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO |
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What "China" does is irrelevent. The Avalon team has a known history of releasing Open Source stuff. That's what matters.
+1. Such broad sterotyping of chinese people/groups is getting close to racism. Like Syke said, Avalon should be judged by their past actions. Yes, because commenting on well established facts about a country is stereotyping of Chinese people... That makes perfect sense. Fucking idiot. The whole point is that even if Avalon decided to release a binary only version of CGMiner, what are the developers going to do about it? Nothing.. zip. Nada. There's nothing they can do realistically. That is the point, besides the one on the top of your and PuertoIdiot's head. Focusing in on one nationality does look racist. The reality is Human beings misappropriate IP or simply don't adhere to the philosophy of Intellectual Property. Beyond the fact that there are 1.2 or 1.1 Billion Chinese and only 300 Million-ish Americans probably throws those statistics out of proportion. I have no clue how many European or Eurasians there are...but they also do pirate and steal IP. (Even at a corporate level) All I can tell you for certain is that focusing in on Chinese people is improper as Humanity as a whole does it. Most of the software being misappropriated is coming from a ton of different regions and nationalities. The Chinese people have no more propensity to steal IP (Intellectual Property) than the rest of Humanity. |
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How is that "flailing against an adversary" exactly? Either it applies to the Avalon team and there's jack all anyone can/will do about it or it does not apply to the Avalon team so it doesn't matter. Or are you seriously trying to deny the fact that China has a piss poor record of honoring IP protection laws? Or... are you just being an apologist for the poor adherence to IP laws?
The USA has large community of people not honoring IP protection laws, despite many laws on the books. You can't search Google without tripping over these English sites. The rate of convictions is very tiny compared to the size of the offenders. Take a look at three links that you can find on Google. http://www.slyck.com/ <--- One community hub found on google.com http://torrentfreak.com/ <--- Another community hub found on google.com http://forum.doom9.org/ <-- I am actually a member here. Great technical discussion(s) of all kinds. Some of the forum members here cracked Bluray encryption when it first came out. (Publicly!) Doom9 forums is also where that particular community pushed for Google Server operators to upgrade their use of Vp6 and Vp7 (Flash) and H.263/H.264 open source code software. Resulting in Googles upgrade of their YouTube platform to "Youtube HD". (Just because they asked an operator why they were still using an old buggy version). So if you use Youtube, the encoding software was designed and discussed on those forums. ----------------------- I do not know if Youtube publishes their various components that make use of open software in their services. I believe they only provide the link to the source code if you request it. (Per the GPL rules) That is just one tiny example. |
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I haven't followed this thread from start to finish - frankly I don't have the time to. What I do know is this - I ordered (4) SC Singles on 7/26/2012. It's been over 5 months now. Where are my products?
So... rather than actually ask BFL... you post a question publicly on a thread board full of trolls. Good job. There is the lead BFL representative currently trolling these threads. Did you actually miss seeing him? (Good Job?) |
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@ Gopher
The reason I ask is because I am currently of the thought that large orders are coming from the wealthy who can afford to lose vs those who make smaller orders and can't afford to lose.
On top of that I have always assumed that larger customers (having more money) can afford to wait longer because their investment pays off greatly compared to the smaller customer with a small purchase.
---------------
You've brought to light an interesting angle though. If you pay for an order with BTC (which you normally didn't do anything to earn it besides construct a rig and power it on) does that mean less if you lose it than someone whom paid with fiat cash?
The question arises is BTC less valuable if you lose it vs actual cash that you physically work for to earn it?
It has got me thinking. I'd love to poll the people who complain the most and figure out what their payment method was like vs those who didn't complain very much.
I'd love your input on this from an actual customer of a larger order.
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@ PuertoLibre
Of course I am interested in the timeline, who would not, especially when it comes to such amazing technology (compared to the GPU farm I had at the time).
But, when I placed my pre-orders I took a calculated risk - like any pre-order from any other new-start-up would impose - and the risk was that the company may not deliver timeously, pretty much same way they missed their delivery targets with the FPGAs.
I was hoping that I will get my SCc by end of October, then I extended my hope that I would get them by the end of November, and again before Christmas, and that was one difference I had from all these cry-babies - I was hoping and not pretending that I placed an order with BFL. Ok, I hear you on this. Just for large customer reference point...As a Mini-Rig customer at what point does it become too much? What is the psychology behind large orders? As in, what _would_ make you consider pulling out if the current trend continues? What is the main factor that you would consider the breaking point where you would personally pull your pre-order? Is it the time or confidence that worries you the most? ----------------------- I noticed below that you mentioned you paid with BTC rather than cash. Do you feel that is a major factor in how someone feels about their pre-order? (I paid with cash, not BTC at my own Vendor) Does spending virtual currency (rather than fiat currency) make the wait easier? Do you believe it would make a difference if you had paid with actual cash than BTC? --------------------- The reason I ask is because I want to understand what goes on behind "the confidence" of one customer vs "the lack of confidence" in another. I assume there has to be some kind of difference between those who hang on and stay cool vs those who complain. At the time I've paid (with hard-earned BTC, nonetheless), I was never let to believe that I was placing an order - it always has been a pre-order.
So I treat it as such - with cautious expectations and great deal of hope.
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@smoothie
Well, I am a customer of BFL, happily mining with their products.
I have number of pre-orders in and eagerly await those to be delivered, so I can place orders for some more mini-rigs.
I've asked some relevant questions in the past, politely, and Josh answered them all without delay, to my satisfaction.
I would not think of making myself a fool by repeating your questions though, I would not think any customer would care to do so neither.
So you spend multiples of $30,000+ dollars and you aren't interested in the timeline of the result? I am taking notes...anyone else think along these same lines? |
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I think his point is that a company doesn't have to bend over at the request of non-customers. They don't owe them anything.
Someone who is a customer...repost the set of questions for Inaba then. I'm sure there are many BFL customers that would like answers to those questions. Seconded +10 |
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#4: "Josh was in charge of the Fab relationship."
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Is it my imagination or is this thread sort of abandoned by the Avalon Team?
Lol you only have to look 3 posts up to find an Avalon Team Member :-) That's like 3 days ago - practically years in Internet Time! Well, it's been more than once that I have asked a question but it has gone unanswered. Perhaps they are busy? <shrug> |
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Unknown to you? Really? You can't deduce the reason from reading the 3 deleted posts with that massive brain of yours? My 12 year old kid could figure it out in about 10 seconds.
I choose not to speculate at this time, so I instead ask your what your criteria might be. Do you wish to answer this? |
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The response to your question is simple:
You are using a criteria (unknown to us) in which you (or other administrators of that forum) are removing selective posts and comments.
The question then is what is the criteria?
---------------------
But moving beyond that, would you care to answer any of the points above in my previous post?
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[...] So go ahead, ask away, see how well that works for you.
I like your highlighting, you've managed to highlight every lie CreativeX has written in the past 10 threads, good job. But, seeing as you two are comparable liars, that's not a surprise. Neither of you can provide anything to backup what you say, so you just keep spouting the same nonsense over and over. And you wonder why I call you an idiot. Are we liars? Lets try a different kind of discussion. I have taken into account that you have stated you don't want to disclose special secrets to your competitors. Rather than engage it retorts I will make up a basic form that I think everyone will agree does not give any competition a leg up on BFL. You've stated the above are "lies". Lets see if that is actually true by asking the person who would know the actual answers rather than resorting to "accusations" (your word) or "speculation". --------------------------- Mark below the closest approximate date you actually received your first "production ready" ASIC chips that fully functioned as intended (within specifications) when fully assembled in it's PCB. (A working prototype is not acceptable. 40Gh/s working units are acceptable.) Dates: 6/30/2012 7/15/2012 7/30/2012 8/15/2012 8/30/2012 9/15/2012 9/30/2012 10/15/2012 10/30/2012 11/15/2012 11/30/2012 12/15/2012 12/30/2012 ---------------------- Question: On what date was the first Bullet Run to occur? Dates: 6/30/2012 7/15/2012 7/30/2012 8/15/2012 8/30/2012 9/15/2012 9/30/2012 10/15/2012 10/30/2012 11/15/2012 11/30/2012 12/15/2012 12/30/2012 Question: On what date did you receive the results of the first bullet run? Dates: 6/30/2012 7/15/2012 7/30/2012 8/15/2012 8/30/2012 9/15/2012 9/30/2012 10/15/2012 10/30/2012 11/15/2012 11/30/2012 12/15/2012 12/30/2012 |
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Bullet runs that result in nothing, drop dead dates that turn out to be fuzzy, flawed chips that need clock buffers but aren't flawed, FCC submissions that don't exist, etc...
Shhh!! SHhhhh! Don't point out the "contradictions" and "inconsistencies". It makes him very angry.Just look his way, pat him on the back and say he's doing a wonderful job. Actually, I bet his inbox is just chalk full of pleased customers. They are thee most patient in the world....! Well, actually that may be a lie. I saw several posts where even the hardcore supporters are calling for people to bail in about...14 days if there is another delay. But....uh....ignore that..."reality". I am sure Josh has magical fairy dust to sprinkle on the angry customers so they become very passive. I am sure it came with the unicorn blood he is always talking about? ------------------------ God, I just realized I hate railing against Josh, it is incredibly pathetic to beat this dead horse anymore. I would ask D3 to lock this thread again, but then someone would have to say something super ridiculous to make it justifiable. Where is Friz when you need him?  |
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Yeah, one whole post deleted! Left and right! OMG!
Once again, PuertoLibre the liar! You need a new title man! You lie more than a rug.
Go and read you own forum. Playing the idiot doesn't suit you, simply be yourself.... |
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Is it my imagination or is this thread sort of abandoned by the Avalon Team?
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Thanks crazyates! Yeah, fortunately I only troll the trolls and irrational critics.  That apparently includes BFL customers. Take a look: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update.htmlI could post a ton of threads but that would be pretty redundant. Josh doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to differentiating critics from customers. (With even less distinction on BFL's revision of what constitutes a "Troll"). Different customers are starting to complain that the BFL Admin (namely Josh) are deleting posts left and right. |
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 Totally laughed at this one! It is so ambiguous that you don't know if the guy at the bottom is the customer or BFL. |
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