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3981  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 19, 2013, 05:41:01 PM
For what it is worth, there is also some disagreement on the tern "slavery".
Some here are using it inclusively to also cover "entry level employees".
3982  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 19, 2013, 05:31:26 PM

I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes -- i genuinely thought we were talking about capitalism as the word is commonly understood.


There's the rub.  We lack that common understanding.

Slavery begins with theft/kidnapping/war, and can only be perpetuated by ignoring that theft/kidnapping/war by the governing authority and the prevailing coercive forces.
So is the capitalism as an economic theory the culprit, or is it the morays and governing authority that are the failure points?

Its fine to say that capitalism doesn't solve the problem of slavery.  It is quite another to say that slavery is integral to capitalism.
Capitalism also doesn't solve many other problems.

"Capitalism" as an economic term has been bastardized and inclusively attached to the governments that have fostered it, it has accrued baggage by associations which (I'd aver) are not inherent to capitalism.  And you'd disagree.  Thus we lack this common understanding of the word.

Perhaps the loss of meaning stems from including the "means-of-destruction/coercion" in the "means-of-production"?  Typically the monopoly on the means of destruction rests with the state.
3983  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitCoins for Edward Snowden. on: June 19, 2013, 04:17:21 PM
Snowden is looking more and more like a treasonous liar.

http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?doc_id=264687&f_src=securitysentinel

We should worry more about the charges and less about Snowden.
If the NSA has nothing to hide then they shouldn't be worried. (I think I've heard that somewhere before...)

Seems they do.
http://www.bankinfosecurity.com/nsa-outlines-steps-to-reduce-leaks-a-5843
3984  Economy / Services / Re: 10 BTC Bounty to reduce prisoners dilemma and stabilize bitcoin on: June 19, 2013, 12:38:15 PM
Selling is also buying by someone else.

Can you clarify the problem you are seeking to solve, that is not already solved by the free market, with the proposed structure?
3985  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [FTC] Free FeatherCoin Giveaway for Everyone! While supplies last. on: June 19, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
6pJFXgRjgAhwsZdYGJjprXNKkrr1gQJfcw

Don't hide them in the mattress, they feel great in the pillow.

Birds of a feather, fly together
3986  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 19, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
Let's drop the pedantry.  "Integral: 2. composed of parts that together constitute a whole." -WCD.  
Usage:  The ears are an integral part of this cast iron kitty, they don't come off unless you break them.  Of course, you are free to do so -- they're by no means essential!

Even so, the notion that capitalism without slavery is not whole, also seems bizarre.
Help me understand.  In what way is slavery integral to capitalism? Like a cat's ears to a cat?

We agree that slavery is "not essential" to capitalism.

Slavery certainly flies in the face of voluntaryism, (which seems to be what the an-caps this thread has provoked into carrying on for so long, are more narrowly advocating as the true definition of "capitalism").
I remain skeptical that either the term "Anarchist", or "Capitalist", are reclaimable outside the realms of ivory towers by the an-caps, though I expect that effort to never cease.  (well... maybe it will after another 20 pages of posts) Smiley
3987  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: June 19, 2013, 05:04:03 AM

"Intrinsic value" is a misnomer, intentionally designed to mislead people. The only legitimate use of the term is in futures/options trading as there is a "present value".

Case in point, answer these three questions:
1) What is the intrinsic value of water?
2) What is the intrinsic value of water if you are lost in a desert?
3) What is the intrinsic value of water if you are drowning?


Σ(N * (% of time N applies))

If everything had the same value to everyone else at all times there would be no trade.

How does any of this refute the notion of things having intrinsic value when it seems to  indicate the opposite?
3988  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 07:29:20 PM

Nope. Serious. Why is trading something you have for something you want, bad? Unless that's not capitalism in your opinion.

Trading is not bad. The cause of trading is bad: DEBT. The first debt is debt ex nihilo: the tribute (census) to the state mafia; it is driven by organised violence of the Church and State. All of the following debts are derivatives of this first debt.

It seem unintuitive to imagine that those without debt would not trade.  But starting from such a premise, the rest of what you have written makes sense.
3989  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 07:22:31 PM
Slavery, being involuntary, is in no way essential, nor even included in what the anarchocapitalists advocate.  So outside even the broadest definitions of integral.

I am finding that folks attempting to reclaim both anarchy and capitalism as useful words in discourse are going to end up wasting more time than they need to.
They might do better with ¨voluntarism¨ or something similar.

Let the anti capitalists fight paper tigers and straw men and move on...

Please read slowly & carefully.  I never said that slavery was voluntary.  Nor did i claim it was essential.  Nor did i ever put it into context with "anarchocapitalis[m]."  
No paper tigers.  No straw men.  I rely on a common definition of capitalism, let's say wikip.  Yourself?

Edit:  There's also no need to coin more words like "debitism" & "voluntarism."  Pointless jargon annoys & confuses.  
Edit2: typo

What definition of integral were you intending, the mathematical?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/integral
Voluntarism is not new, and it obvious that some other term is needed since all the folks disagreeing are discussing different meanings of the terms being used.  So either there has to be a definition which is agreed, or a different term.
I didn´t pick it out of nowhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
3990  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 06:41:30 PM
Slavery, being involuntary, is in no way essential, nor even included in what the anarchocapitalists advocate.  So outside even the broadest definitions of integral.

I am finding that folks attempting to reclaim both anarchy and capitalism as useful words in discourse are going to end up wasting more time than they need to.
They might do better with ¨voluntarism¨ or something similar.

Let the anti capitalists fight paper tigers and straw men and move on...
3991  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 06:32:54 PM

Before capitalism if you invented something sweet your feudal lord would say YOINK thanks for the sweet invention. after capitalism the person who invented it could chose to use it for his own purposes or to trade it with someone else for something else. this is what i mean by keep, i should have been more explicit though, this was admittedly a communication failure on my part.

Capitalism is a collectivist period within a cycle. It's ending now.

http://thevelvetrocket.com/2010/04/21/paintings-of-the-day-the-course-of-empire-by-thomas-cole/

By "cycle" and "now" do we mean, "this epoch" or "this week"?

We all look forward to something better, and must have curiosity as to what that might be in order to meaningfully contribute.  Bitcoin being an example of something better.
3992  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 06:20:17 PM
To me it seems that many poster-children of capitalism (e.g.: Apple) rely on emotional buyers to buy their consumer shite. How many people buy stuff because it seemed like a great idea at that instant when they handed over the cash (aka: the "mutual gain" propaganda), but end up disappointed later?

So why not just put up PSAs that doing so and so is bad? You're free to volunteer your time to do so. And why do you believe that your opinion of what is good or bad is the same for everyone else? How will you keep from making mistakes due to not noticing that what may be a bad trade for almost everyone out there, may be a good trade for some specific people?
Interesting example.
And Why not?  Many do.  This one had over 16 million views last I looked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg

3993  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Why are people so eager to pay tax? on: June 18, 2013, 05:22:40 PM
I do not care about my country, because it does not care about me.
They spend it on all kinds of bullshit.
I'm already a slave to their tax system, from a birth, If there's a way to avoid it, I would go for it without any doubt.
I should not care about other people (the society) too, because it's a rat race, you can only survive by walking on other people's heads.

My experience is entirely different.
I've found survival requirements to be most easily satisfied by providing something which society values, or at minimum, individual members of society. 
Rather than walking on heads, helping others more easily walk on their own feet can be quite rewarding, and I recommend it heartily.
3994  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: BTC violates GAAP, result a mess. on: June 18, 2013, 04:27:40 PM
I don't think they will. Personally I don't think inputs/outputs are inferior enough to change it at this point.
As said, the refactor would be big, and you would need a hard fork. But I'm still missing why Satoshi didn't make it a balances ledger from the beginning.

It protects against reorganization attacks.

I don't see why reorgs are a problem using sequence numbers to serialize the transactions from an address.
But that makes you remember empty addresses and their sequence numbers forever to avoid replays.
If they used the hash of the last transaction from each address, you could forget about empty addresses or "destroy accounts".

If you add a hash of the previous transaction, and if you extend your proposal to allow transactions to include more than one parent input, then guess what? That exactly describe the transaction output system bitcoin actually uses. I don't think they are as different as you or LvM think they are.
And the transaction hash provides an index useful in adding whatever additional elements are needed for the variety of ever-changing accounting standards - to the external compliance software, and outside the block chain.
3995  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 18, 2013, 04:24:13 PM
Capitalism isn't just "whatever works well."
My one and only gripe is the insistence that everything good is "Capitalist"
Why not abandon the word-and its ideological shortcomings? Its connotations are worse than "greed."

The "Anarcho-Capitalists" have done this abandonment, though conjoining with another often misunderstood notion may not have been the best selection for the purpose of philosophical marketing.
Your claim that "capitalism" requires state power, would suggest that they are advocating something entirely different from the capitalism-as-is-commonly-understood.
3996  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: June 18, 2013, 10:19:23 AM
On another note.  Does anyone know about the legitimacy of these gold for bitcoin companies?  Like http://www.coinabul.com/?

Coinabul are good folks.
My prices are better, but coinabul provide a much better retail experience.
If I may ask here, what's your typical markup over spot for a Perth Mint 1oz bar?  Coinabul around 8% for 1 oz bars.  http://www.amagimetals.com/ is ~3%, WOW!  Love the John Galt and Ron Paul coins, HAHA!

edit:  I could buy some gold, max out my credit cards and disappear hehe!

Thus my point about their superior retail experience.  We don't take credit, but we do take Bitcoin, and other non-reversible transactions.
3997  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - Hardcore on: June 18, 2013, 09:34:51 AM
Which Chinese exchange are people looking at?

Every single one ;-)

You can see them all here: http://btckan.com/price

USD price is second from left.

The weekend drop was already pretty reluctant TBH.

That's an amazing link, 9 RMB exchanges! The Chinese are really getting excited about Bitcoin.

The exchanges are growing, but the striking number that ought not be ignored is the futures volume.
It is approaching the volume of BTC-E.
Futures are where the price manipulation will be happening increasingly. 
https://796.com/reg/index/100231
3998  Economy / Economics / Re: Interest rates in a deflationary currency on: June 18, 2013, 09:04:27 AM
What happened in there is exactly what should happen in sound money system. People lent bank money and bank went bankrupt so lenders lost their money.
I'd agree, it is one of 2 options, I would go further and say when I have invested in something and it has gone bankrupt or delisted, I just lose my money, and so it should be for the lenders who miscalculated and lent to those states.

The new piece is that not just lenders take the loss, but also depositors, who are converted to shareholders in the failing bank.

the difference between depositor and shareholder is largely that depositor has no vote.

That and Depositors traditionally are entitled to withdraw the deposit.  Shareholders must find the greater fool and sell for what they can get.
3999  Economy / Economics / Re: Interest rates in a deflationary currency on: June 17, 2013, 03:51:26 PM
What happened in there is exactly what should happen in sound money system. People lent bank money and bank went bankrupt so lenders lost their money.
I'd agree, it is one of 2 options, I would go further and say when I have invested in something and it has gone bankrupt or delisted, I just lose my money, and so it should be for the lenders who miscalculated and lent to those states.

The new piece is that not just lenders take the loss, but also depositors, who are converted to shareholders in the failing bank.
4000  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: June 17, 2013, 01:44:12 PM
I'm saying capitalism is only possible when the state facilitates it.
How do states facilitate capitalism?  The opposite seems more common.
Government in most any its forms seem generally anti-capitalist.
The obvious exceptions being lex mercatoria and contract law.

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