Bitcoin Forum
July 07, 2024, 09:56:49 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »
41  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin Nation on: December 22, 2013, 06:32:03 AM
Japan has the best technology by far in this whole wide world. This country is so technologically advanced..

Just want to say that this is actually not true. Tokyo is very technologically advanced, and rest of world typically sees or thinks of Tokyo when they think of Japan, but Tokyo does not represent Japan. Much of Japan is actually less technological than America and Europe, and people live plain and simple lives. Most houses have no air conditioning or heating, with walls only a few centimeters thick, that have cold air blowing through cracks, and need insulation tape around windows. People use small electric heaters to heat rooms, but otherwise have to wear warm clothing indoors. Waking up in morning to go to bathroom in winter is unpleasant experience, which is why those famous electronic toilets with heated seats are so popular. Many people still do not own computers or smart phones, and just use regular phones to send e-mails. In many areas of what you call country, there may be one or five computers in a school library, and that is only computers that kids have access to in whole town. So Japan being a country of giant robots, and 3D rendered anime girls, and crazy electronic toys, is mostly illusion for rest of world. Yes, it exists, but is as remote to many Japanese as it is to many Americans and Europeans.
42  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin Nation on: December 22, 2013, 05:29:19 AM
Not true. Cosa Nostra grey market economy is second biggest economy in Italy. True, they avoid taxes, but much of what they sell is not strictly illegal (they do make counterfeit things), and they actually earn a lot of money to support themselves without parasiting on government.

Cosa Nostra gets more than 50% of their revenue from extortion. Most of the remaining comes from smuggling illegal immigrants, illegally dumping rubbish, and female trafficking.

I do not know where you got your source, and you may be right, but "extortion" costs 10% to 15% of profit, and provides services that are not just protection from theft, vandalism, and other crime. That is actually less than what many people in rest of world pay for police and military, and services like arbitration and business contract dispute.

However, such organizations have much negative stories and propaganda created about them by monopolies that wish to retain all force (governments), as well as media creating stories for entertainment, so maybe I should not talk about them.
43  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 22, 2013, 05:24:52 AM
Laws and courts exists because they fulfill a market need.  They would exist just as much in an anarchist society because humans will still be the same.  The only question is whether they will be under democratic control.

Courts are not democratic. They are supposed to be specifically not democratic, because their function is to be ethical and just, not decide for what majority wants.

As for Apple and contract argument, you claim that reputation based trade without government enforced contracts can not work (if you were to make one) is provably false, by fact that such contracts are done by transnational corporations between suppliers in different countries, and corporations that do not have home countries, who have no country law to depend on for contracts. Apple gets its products from Taiwan, Japan, America, and China, and if any of suppliers broke their contract, Apple can not take them to court, especially in China, because Apple is not from those countries and will likely lose in court. But such large supplier companies depend on good reputation to continue to do business. In business, reputation is everything, regardless of what you might believe.
44  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 22, 2013, 05:11:32 AM
If your idea of anarchy is worthwhile, it has to offer something better than what we have now in our real lives.

No it does not. It just has to offer something more ethical and more just. And besides, it is very easy to offer something better than what we have now.


You offer a society in which "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" are killing people for animal cruelty and then seek to justify that by arguing its exactly how things work now.

I admitted it may have been too harsh, but it is not out of realm of what may be possible in future. Not because it will be legal or allowable, but because it will simply be possible.

Why not compare your "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" instant execution system with the real world in which a death sentence requires a jury and years of careful examination of the facts?  Your idea is certain to involve a lot more people being killed.

You live in sheltered world if you believe that is what requires death sentence. From what I hear, Texas is very happy to make death sentences with little review, and are proud of it. That may be true in Florida, too. America is very quick to give death sentence without jury to those living in middle east and north Africa. China and other totalitarian countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are much happy to give death sentences without trials, and even democratic Russia is known to give death sentences that are not just. Also, supposedly 90% of accusations end up never going into court, and get settled because of threats of much harsher sentences. Even if not death sentence, many people in current "better" system have many years of their life stolen from them as they spend it in jails. I do not think it is very difficult to come up with better system, and at worst, we will just just as horrible system as we have now.

Any decent society will have a clear separation between the judicial act of deciding to kill someone and the executive act of killing them.

That is happy fairy tale that is not true, and maybe never was, simply because this rule is not given evenly to everyone. If state thinks you are really bad, they will just ignore this rule, and you know it.
45  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 22, 2013, 05:00:23 AM
Quote
That is anarcho-capitalism as I understand it. You can do whatever you wish, so long as you are aware of consequences of your action, and everyone else is free to react to your actions as they wish, without relying on law or police to tell them how they must react. How is my anarchy form different?

The one and only form of anarchy in the history of mankind is the self-sufficient community. There is no such thing as individualism in the human nature. A human is neither an individualist nor a (hyper-) collectivist (citizen). Anarchy in the world of the reality means individualistic (stateless, unruled) communities.
Matrilineal anarchy was slowly replaced by patriarchy (= organized violence, state and church) about 10'000 years ago.

That is what I support and wish to build, too, yes. People are social animals. They can not live completely independently, and will form communities with personal beliefs and cultures. I see no problem with such idea, and do not think it conflicts with anarcho-capitalism. In fact, I think it would be good for such groups to compete against each other in producing best educated children, most skilled workers, and best products.
46  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Are corporations people? on: December 22, 2013, 04:53:59 AM
what you don't seem to understand is that bigger corporations are making record profits, while employee wages are hitting record lows. the gap is widening, and the economy is dying because of it.

That is actually not true, and is a lie that tells only half of the story. If you look at your country, you will see that rich corporations are making more profits, and citizens of your country are getting lower wages. What you ignore is that corporations are global, and now so are employees. Corporations are making record profits because they are hiring more employees in other, typically poorer countries, and if you take all of corporation employees into account, and compare their wages to what they were before, you will see that employee wages around the world have gone up substantially. Sure, wages of employees of your rich country may have gone down or lost value from inflation, but wages of employees in poor countries like India went from less than $1 an hour to almost like low wages in Europe and USA in some places. Bit reason is not because of corporation greed, but because of rich country being greedy and isolated, but now economy spreading over rest of the world, and wages averaging out with much lower wages in places which used to be isolated. Their wages were so low that they are bringing global average down, but it is only temporary, and will likely improve in future. It definitely improved for those poor and isolated countries.

If I ride on a Disney theme park ride that crashes and I am injured who do I sue if I can't sue the virtual person that is the Disney Corporation?  Do I sue the ride operators who were working that day, their immediate bosses, the general manager of the park, those who were hired to design and build the ride?  How do I know who was specifically responsible for the ride crashing?  It would be a legal maze to try to unravel which specific person or persons who were responsible.

Not necessarily. Without corporations, Disney would still be business owned by person or group of people. And if these people are smart, they will have business insurance to take care of such problems. You would sue Disney business, prove to insurance you did get hurt, and they would pay out. Because Disney is known as high reputation company, it is good chance that as soon as you got hurt, they would grab you, quickly take you out of park in secret, and help fix you and pay you so you do not complain and ruin their reputation, because Disney is supposed to be happy, safe, fun, family place.
47  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution. on: December 22, 2013, 04:21:54 AM
I do not think it was lazy or parasite races that brought down USSR. Communism makes everyone lazy parasites. I believe what brought it down was massive increase in military spending during last decade of its existence, where too much economic production was diverted into military, away from agriculture and rest of economy, which also resulted in large unsustainable debt. It is why I believe USA also began its path to empire collapse as soon as it began Iraq war.
48  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Bitcoin Nation on: December 16, 2013, 02:58:11 AM
There is better, or at least simpler option. One that does not require anyone to move. Look at how Cosa Nostra and Yakuza function. They live in same country as everyone else, but they are effectively their own people and their own nation, with their own economy and services.

Strictly speaking, they don't have their own economy which is at least able to support itself. They parasitize on the economy they happen to live in (through not paying taxes, engaging in forbidden activities, etc). I don't think this is a characteristic that most bicoiners would love to share...

Not true. Cosa Nostra grey market economy is second biggest economy in Italy. True, they avoid taxes, but much of what they sell is not strictly illegal (they do make counterfeit things), and they actually earn a lot of money to support themselves without parasiting on government. They themselves are the economy they live in, which is strong and developed enough that if Italy economy and government collapsed, southern Italy would still be fine. Their main service is private security and arbitration/negotiation, so they provide many functions that normally government provides. If bitcoin people wish to form such a nation, they would not need to do illegal things like gangs do, such as killing, selling drugs, and causing violence. But that you wish to form a nation tells me that there is something you wish to do that is not allowed (is illegal) to do where you live. That is why I suggested we study the organizations that already do things that are illegal to do where they live, but they still thrive while doing it.
(People Nation gang is bad example, because they are small, not well established, and just fight each other and police, while Cosa Nostra is very well established and respected, even by law enforcement).
49  Other / Off-topic / Re: Illuminati is out convincing you that Bitcoin is worthless. on: December 16, 2013, 02:43:46 AM
Wile electricity is down, bitcoin will not work, but neither will banks, or any other financial systems.

Cash will work, but if electricity will not be up for weeks, I dont expect the trade will work flawesly, so you will probably not be able to buy food with these papers

Also, nobody carries cash any more, and ATMs will not work either.
50  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 16, 2013, 02:37:06 AM
It is not my view that is being imposed on anyone. You are confused about anarchy. Anarchy does not mean that anarchists remove the rules that your government imposes on everyone, and replace them with rules that anarchists impose on everyone. Anarchy means that each individual decides what he wants to do, and each individual is free to try to impose their own rule on someone else. There are no anarchy rules to impose. That is why it is called anarchy. It is up to each individual to have good morals and logical ethical position.

This form of anarchy I call the only true Anarchy, and this is not what most "anarchists" here would consider as anarchy. So you would go for a sort of heretic among them...

That is anarcho-capitalism as I understand it. You can do whatever you wish, so long as you are aware of consequences of your action, and everyone else is free to react to your actions as they wish, without relying on law or police to tell them how they must react. How is my anarchy form different?
51  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 16, 2013, 02:18:35 AM
Yes, they are finished. Indebted already as grotesk as the globalized developed just-in-time-world, on which their economy is depending.

China debt is not nearly as serious as USA or Europe debt, because debt in USA and Europe is to citizens in forms of pensions, medicine, and social security. Plus those citizens have much personal debt in credit cards and mortgages. China does not have many social programs, and many people save much money and have large savings, so if China collapses, they have enough to live on for a long time.
52  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? on: December 16, 2013, 01:57:12 AM
So your ideal society is one in which people get killed by "Professionals with black clothing and silenced weapons" hired by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals.

It is not ideal society, it is society that may be better than what we have now, or at least not worse, since we have people which get killed by professionals with blue clothing, called on by anyone who thinks they are cruel to animals. Besides, it not necessary to kill. Give very stern warning to these people, maybe with warning shots, and it may be enough to give them notice that they are being watched. This is not so much possible with just calling police who may just come, investigate, and leave if they can't come into house to investigate.

Quote
A lot of anarchists come across as morally confused.  They talk about freedom but want to impose their own views on other people in a totally undemocratic way.  Your idea of being able to have people killed without trial if they are suspected of being cruel to animals is an extremely good example of this moral confusion.

It is not my view that is being imposed on anyone. You are confused about anarchy. Anarchy does not mean that anarchists remove the rules that your government imposes on everyone, and replace them with rules that anarchists impose on everyone. There are no unified anarchy rules to impose. That is why it is called anarchy. Anarchy means that each individual decides what he wants to do, and each individual is free to try to impose their own rule on someone else, while taking full responsibility for imposing those rules. It is up to each individual to have good morals and logical ethical position.

If you found yourself in such anarchy society wish such animal abuser, what would you do? That is all anarchy asks of people. If you think killing is bad, then obviously you will not try to get this person killed. I would not either, as tempting as it may be. I believe most people will not want to kill such a person, either, otherwise we would have had majority vote to make law that says animal cruelty should be punished by death.

I am opposed to female genital mutilation and I am happy with the present system where people who do that to a girl are named and shamed in court proceedings and their children can be taken into care.  Anarchists say that female genital mutilation is a personal moral choice of the parents and that they should be left get on with it.

Yet more example of you confused about anarchy. Anarchy is not every person should be allowed to do whatever he wishes. That is what media portrays anarchy as, making it seem violent, scary, and every man for himself. In anarchy, every person makes their own decision. This also includes decision to name and shame people who do female genital mutilation, and refuse to interact or do business with them. Anarchy is community where everyone is equal.

Quote
Do you want everyone to face the risk of mob law?  That often misfires.  For example, in Wales, a paediatrician was driven out of her home because the locals thought paediatrician is a synonym for paedophile.  Or do you want a system of courts whose approval is required for any violent acts and a system of police who are trained to use violence in a minimal way.

Democracy is mob law. If more people believe something is wrong, they will rule that it should be illegal. Look at how much time American mobs spend on voting to support religions, protect children from sex, and making drugs illegal. Everyone is so afraid sex and drugs that their law system is very broken.
And courts can also be private, people can agree to take people to court to stand trial, and private security can be trained to use violence in minimal way. People liked the idea of trials in courts. That is why we have passed laws to agree to such a thing to begin with. So it is likely that people will continue to want private courts too. And it is more costly for private security to commit violence (lost ammunition, damaged property, lost or damaged employees) than for police to engage in violence. Police always get their paycheck no matter what. Even if they kill a child by accident, they just get warning and keep working. Compare how many civilians police in America killed, to how many civilians gangs like Yakuza and Cosa Nostra killed. At least those gangs don't shoot children when they get scared of children with plastic guns.
53  Other / Politics & Society / Re: the social Bitcoin on: December 16, 2013, 01:30:53 AM
Up to now I have been writing about this idea as something that could be pushed on people, a run on cash, a form of striking, a revolution; but now I think it would have to be something that people in the developed world choose to do voluntarily. As they are the ones who will be giving up most of the wealth it could not be forced upon them and they need some incentive to participate. One incentive would be to give relief to the world's poor; but there is another more practical reason to adopt a global egalitarian cryptocurrency.

There is already working solution to this, and people are doing it voluntarily. Until just decade or so ago, it was much better to hire well educated people in developed world to do skilled labor, because the people in developed world already had needed skills. But then people in developed world voluntarily chose to raise minimum wage, and increase regulation, so now it is cheaper to hire and train people in places with a lot of poor people. This past decade has seen unbelievably large amount of poorest people in all of world get pulled out of poverty through economic expansion in India and China. Indians are much grateful to developed world for voluntarily doing those choices. Namaste! Cheesy
54  Other / Politics & Society / Re: the social Bitcoin on: December 16, 2013, 01:17:05 AM
There are two types of people..The Oppressors and the Oppressed..When the Oppressed wake up and say they have had enough then many different types of economic systems will come to the Fore so then nothing will really matter.

The question is who is who? Are the workers the oppressed, and the businesses and corporations the oppressors, in which case the workers will rise up, take control, and relieve the wealthy business owners of their wealth, as happened in communist revolutions during the last century?
Or are the business people and entrepreneurs the oppressed, and the workers the oppressors, feeling that it is unfair that some people have much and they have little, and using the power of government to regulate and take from those business people and entrepreneurs, in which case it's the wealthy business types that will rise up, take their wealth, and move elsewhere?

That is good point. There is now much oppression of not only wealthy people, but small business owners and entrepreneurs, who must now pay for expensive licenses and fees to do their jobs. There are news that almost 10 wealthy people leave America every month to avoid paying these high fees and taxes. We even have examples of this here in bitcoin community, such as Erik Voorhees leaving and moving to Panama because it is much easier to establish business there, and China becoming more dominant in Bitcoin because it is difficult to do anything with bitcoin in America. Business and entrepreneur people will keep leaving, poor people will have fewer job opportunities and become poorer, and they will get more angry and demand more money and more things from business people and entrepreneurs, and cycle will continue until everyone is poor and with no work. It is already much easier to get job in China and India than in Japan and America.
55  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution. on: December 16, 2013, 01:11:03 AM
Since both sides are thieves, if their options are only government thieves that wish to join EU, and government thieves that wish to join Russia, I wish they could pick the option of just no government thieves at all. But from what I hear they have many people on government pensions, and much government debt, which is reason Ukraine is broke. So that may not be an option for them. It is sad, because Ukraine always seems to be stuck between two fighting side, Russia and Europe. It was same during World War 2, when they were stuck between Soviet Union and Germany.

Thank you for these new updates.
56  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Are corporations people? on: December 16, 2013, 01:02:35 AM
they underpay their employees because most of them work under 40 hours at near minimum wage, so that they'd qualify for government assistance. when the employees get to that point, they have a designated "specialist" to help employees sign up for government benefits.

they are literally gaming the system so that government can foot the bill.

what would make more sense is to up the minimum wage and to cut welfare benefits - reward the people who are willing to work, which is a pretty damn big number.. even if there are a lot of lazy people.

Raising minimum wage would be bad idea. Price and profit is not just a single set figure. It is balance between profit from cheap price and high volume, and profit from low volume but high price. If taken to extreme, increasing minimum wage will result in much fewer WalMarts, selling at much higher prices, and earning millions on high prices instead of volume. It can also fire employees and invest more in automatic systems to sell with, like self-check out lanes. This will result with less people with job, and those who have jobs and money paying more to buy same products, and becoming poorer too. I know there are supposedly statistics that say that increasing minimum wage has no effect on employment, but those statistics seem completely wrong, considering the greatly increasing employment in India, China, and other developing countries, while stagnating or increasing unemployment rates here in US. The statistics were probably true only while there was no globalization, or the effects were just not being felt until economic crash could not support it any more.
I agree with cutting benefits. only reason corporations can game systems is because there are systems for them to game. If they had employees, and employees could not get health insurance, they would either have very desperate and bad employees, or no one would want to work for them until they started covering insurance. It is best to have well taken care of and productive employees. Right now, they are just making government do taking care of.
57  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Are corporations people? on: December 16, 2013, 12:47:40 AM
This is why all education should be free. Universities are just a business selling you qualifications that can end up being worth little.

There is much of education that is already free. For example Khan Academy and Wikipedia. Universities just sell a reputation that allows people to trust their backing of their students reputation. If people start to trust reputation of Khan Academy, and trust that it can put its backing behind people who take its courses, then universities may start losing their significance. Hopefully in near future people will rely on their built up online reputation more than on the reputation from single university or single employer.
58  Other / Off-topic / Re: Illuminati is out convincing you that Bitcoin is worthless. on: December 16, 2013, 12:41:41 AM
Nukes need electricity to be launched. You probably mean nuclear meltdown at nuclear power plants, because then need electricity to keep control of the core. That is bigger problem than bitcoin. Bitcoin will not be affected much, because EMP only affects side facing the sun. Night time side has no EMP, so bitcoin will continue to work there. And electricity will be restored within a few days. Wile electricity is down, bitcoin will not work, but neither will banks, or any other financial systems.
59  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Are corporations people? on: December 15, 2013, 04:43:51 AM
i always hear this argument.. but no matter what you do, there will always be unskilled/uneducated people. sometimes you are so financially strapped that you don't even have the money or time invest in training for a new skill. the worst thing about it is that even if you did go to a vocational school, there are still less and less jobs available.

here's an example of how hard it is to even get a super low paying job http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2013/11/20/dc-residents-clamor-for-walmart-jobs/

more applicants get into harvard than a walmart..

This sounds like there are many unskilled people in America. Why are they unskilled? Is no one interested in learning how to do things that actually get good jobs and pay money?
60  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What's wrong with unequal wealth distribution? (Was: 2013-12-10 Bitcoin Proves.. on: December 15, 2013, 04:19:14 AM
If rich value them and use them to trade, why would they be useless? Can you trade 1 kilogram bars of gold? No. But I bet you wish you could.


ok, if only the 5% that own 95% of the coins accept them as value, they wont be able to pay their workers with it, they wont be able to buy any product of "the other 95%"

I would not be surprised that 5% owns 95% of all gold bars. Probably of all gold in existence. This 5% mostly uses it as store of value, and to trade amongst themselves. Does this mean that 95% do not want to have gold, too? Would you not want receive any gold as payment? Since you know this 5% accepts this currency, and they also likely own many of the biggest businesses, why would workers not take it, if they know they can use it to buy anything they want from 5%? There is higher chance the 5% will not take some currency that 95% make, than 95% not taking currency that 5% have. Richard Branson is now taking bitcoin, and many rich still have gold, but no rich person takes Fureai Kippu or Ithaca Hours.
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!