 Show Posts
|
|
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 »
|
If things were running as normal you would not see LTC at 19 or 21 during the period in question. LTC/USD traded within a tight range of 19.76 to 20.45 (pretty much sideways) at btc-e during this period. Now if the market fluctuated 18 to 22 at btc-e during this period then you would have an argument. But this did not happen. Come on, I sold it right on panic buy, I could have easily sold @21 if this hack didn't happened, but they handed me a $20 LTC. Thanks god it didn't tank more and my loss isn't really big. But I still lost money for doing the right move, do you understand? I edited my response to jbssm's post and meant 22 the price jbssm sold at. 21 is borderline and you might have an argument, but 20.45 was the highest at btc-e at the time (check the history at btc-e) and hitting 21 at bitfinex would have been unlikely. But as I say there is no solution to please everyone. There will always be a few who feel unjustified by this but that's life. Accept it and move on. First I was giving an hypothetical example, values may vary, but you can easily find scenarios where it incurs in a loss. Second, I entered the short already 4-5 days ago when the price when high, not last night. You entered the short limit order into the orderbook 4-5 days ago but it only executed last night? Or did your short get executed 4-5 days ago? Please make this clear. |
|
|
|
If things were running as normal you would not see LTC at 19 or 21 during the period in question. LTC/USD traded within a tight range of 19.76 to 20.45 (pretty much sideways) at btc-e during this period. Now if the market fluctuated 18 to 22 at btc-e during this period then you would have an argument. But this did not happen. Come on, I sold it right on panic buy, I could have easily sold @21 if this hack didn't happened, but they handed me a $20 LTC. Thanks god it didn't tank more and my loss isn't really big. But I still lost money for doing the right move, do you understand? I edited my response to jbssm's post and meant 22 the price jbssm sold at. 21 is borderline and you might have an argument, but 20.45 was the highest at btc-e at the time (check the history at btc-e) and hitting 21 at bitfinex would have been unlikely. But as I say there is no solution to please everyone. There will always be a few who feel unjustified by this but that's life. Accept it and move on. |
|
|
|
My question here is, What happened to the money hackers stole? who paid it?
The hackers didn't steal anything according to the Bitfinex announcement. The hackers would have had to withdraw the bitcoins/litecoins. Maybe they managed to withdraw a few from the hotwallet but the amount (if any) is probably very small and and loss would be covered by Bitfinex. The main issue is if the trades are not reversed then it is inevitable the hackers will then proceed withdraw their gains when withdrawals are enabled again. It is virtually impossible to determine all the accounts the hackers would have controlled at the time (other than the one which exploited the bug and executed the huge market orders). Most likely they would have set up multiple accounts and placed buy limits for litecoin at say $16 and sell limits at $22 just before the hack. Then with their main account they would manipulate the LTC ticker exploiting a bug/security vulnerability in the trading engine and place a huge market sell for LTC down to $16 (so their other accounts can buy cheap LTC at $16) followed by a huge market buy to $22 (so their other accounts can sell at $22 with a quick profit). Repeat this a few times as has happened and they would most likely have made a few hundred thousand dollars worth of LTC. The main account of the hacker executing market orders would be easily determined by the admins and then the account frozen, however the other accounts of the hacker which placed the limit orders would be extremely difficult to determine, unless the hacker was stupid enough to use the same IP's as the main account (extremely unlikely). The only choice the admins are left with would be to reverse all trades during the period so the hackers don't get away with anything, whilst simultaneously reinstating all accounts that would otherwise not have been affected if it wasn't for the hacks. Also, many users who would not have otherwise lost or get stopped out, or end up with negative balances would be justified in having all trades reversed. Those trades which made a huge profit due to the fraudulent trades of the hacker will also have to be reversed. There is no way around this. Nobody loses, all accounts are reinstated back to before the attacks. The only people complaining are the ones who lost out on an unfair profit (which should not have been realized under any normal market circumstances). This is fairest solution considering everything and it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be complainers. Bullocks. You open a short for LTC at 22, you place a closing at 19 (price that was reached in BTCe for instance) and now the price is back to 20.50 so you can't short at 19 anymore. Yet now they want to take the money you made with a perfectly legit profit. Explain how nobody looses with this like you said? If things were running as normal you would not see LTC at 19 or 22 during the period in question. LTC/USD traded within a tight range of 19.76 to 20.45 (pretty much sideways) at btc-e during this period. Now if the market fluctuated 19 to 22 at btc-e during this period then you would have an argument. But this did not happen.you place a closing at 19 (price that was reached in BTCe for instance)
19.76 was the lowest at btc-e. Try harder. |
|
|
|
My question here is, What happened to the money hackers stole? who paid it?
The hackers didn't steal anything according to the Bitfinex announcement. The hackers would have had to withdraw the bitcoins/litecoins. Maybe they managed to withdraw a few from the hotwallet but the amount (if any) is probably very small and and loss would be covered by Bitfinex. The main issue is if the trades are not reversed then it is inevitable the hackers will then proceed withdraw their gains when withdrawals are enabled again. It is virtually impossible to determine all the accounts the hackers would have controlled at the time (other than the one which exploited the bug and executed the huge market orders). Most likely they would have set up multiple accounts and placed buy limits for litecoin at say $16 and sell limits at $22 just before the hack. Then with their main account they would manipulate the LTC ticker exploiting a bug/security vulnerability in the trading engine and place a huge market sell for LTC down to $16 (so their other accounts can buy cheap LTC at $16) followed by a huge market buy to $22 (so their other accounts can sell at $22 with a quick profit). Repeat this a few times as has happened and they would most likely have made a few hundred thousand dollars worth of LTC. The main account of the hacker executing market orders would be easily determined by the admins and then the account frozen, however the other accounts of the hacker which placed the limit orders would be extremely difficult to determine, unless the hacker was stupid enough to use the same IP's as the main account (extremely unlikely). The only choice the admins are left with would be to reverse all trades during the period so the hackers don't get away with anything, whilst simultaneously reinstating all accounts that would otherwise not have been affected if it wasn't for the hacks. Also, many users who would not have otherwise lost or get stopped out, or end up with negative balances would be justified in having all trades reversed. Those trades which made a huge profit due to the fraudulent trades of the hacker will also have to be reversed. There is no way around this. Nobody loses, all accounts are reinstated back to before the attacks. The only people complaining are the ones who lost out on an unfair profit (which should not have been realized under any normal market circumstances). This is fairest solution considering everything and it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be complainers. |
|
|
|
Rollback is not a solution here, people made decisions and changed hands. rolling back will make the other half lose. they are just diverting the problem now. the only responsible party here is Bitfinex. they promised us security and now got hacked. I sold my LTC @22 and now it's rolled back, and price is plummeting while I can't do shit. why should I lose money for my correct decision?
Did you sell your LTC @22 during the abnormal trading period in question? If so then the trade should be rolled back since it was only executed because of a malicious hack and therefore are fraudulent trades. 22 was 10% above market value and would not have been reached under any normal market trading circumstances. Btc-e's highest price was 20.45 during this period. You are joking me right?
What about the shorts I took in LTC/USD more than 2 days ago that where giving me plenty of profit? You are stealing that money from me!
Did your LTC/USD shorts get closed during the abnormal trading period in question? These trades were outlier trades only executed because of a hack and therefore are fraudulent trades, with as much as a 30% price deviation from normal market value. Once again, these prices would not have been reached under any normal market trading circumstances. Btc-e's lowest price during this period was 19.76. how can you role back trades made in exchange mode? wtf
Exchange trades share the same order book with margin trades and are matched with each other. ANY trades made on the BTC/USD or BTC/LTC orderbook during the abnormal trading period are affected and should be reversed. |
|
|
|
An announcement has been made by the Bitfinex Team in the main Bitfinex thread. They are working on the issue. Dear Customers
the situation is under control.
No money or coins are missing and the problem was due to some malicious trader trying to play with the LTC ticker price in order to take advantage on us.
We are now reversing all transactions that took place on our platform during the time when all got messy (approx 7 a.m. GMT).
Very few transactions (for a total of 2,000 btc) actually took place on Bitstamp, only limited to the BTC/USD pair (Bitstamp doesn't trade LTC) and they actually took place at a price that was around 750 usd, so no big deal.
We enabled the trading engine for a few minutes and then switched it off again to avoid those rats (sorry I cannot think of a better word in this moment) to shuffle things even more and to make our work more difficult.
We keep an eye on the price and we can always enable it in the next minutes whilst we reverse trades that took advantage of the abnormality should the price get volatile.
The whole operation will not take anyway more than one hour.
Thanks a lot for your understanding and we deeply apologize for the inconvenience
Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
|
|
|
|
I see trades being executed.
That's interesting. I see the fake bids of 829 and 10,000 is gone and the 500 fake offer too. Right now trading seems to have resumed and normalised. Maybe we don't need a rollback? My balance and position are still all fucked up. And I have a withdrawal in limbo.  Do you have a negative trade balance? Can you post a screenshot? Hmm. It seems back to normal now. I think, eyeballing it anyway. Nothing rolled back. I'm not complaining -- I made a few thousand bucks in a few seconds there -- but an announcement from Bitfinex would be nice. And I'd be pretty pissed if I had stops that triggered because of this hack. Withdrawal in limbo -- but then again, their hot wallet would be empty, wouldn't it? Edit: Did trading freeze again? hmmm my usd balance was wrong a few hours ago - then briefly correct, now i'm into work and checking again and its wrong. Does anyone know if they're working on this - I can't see any announcements on the bf site. Yes. An announcement has been made by Bitfinex. See a few posts above. |
|
|
|
 The fact that this is possible means….. Is your trading balance still negative? |
|
|
|
I see trades being executed.
That's interesting. I see the fake bids of 829 and 10,000 is gone and the 500 fake offer too. Right now trading seems to have resumed and normalised. Maybe we don't need a rollback? My balance and position are still all fucked up. And I have a withdrawal in limbo. Do you have a negative trade balance? Can you post a screenshot? |
|
|
|
Of course they don't store a huge sum in a hotwallet.
They can rollback LTC trading, hoping they can rollback BTC aswel (ofcourse stamp is a problem).
Well, consider whatever amount withdrawn lost. They cannot roll back the trades of LTC that have been withdrawn. Bitfinex will most likely cover these losses so no need for us to worry. My worry is what kind of time frame we may be looking at..... any guesses? Hopefully no more than a few days. When Gox had their problem, they intially said that trades would be rolled back and trading resumed the following day. However there was also a database leak of all customers usernames, email addresses and hashed passwords at the time, which meant that Gox had no choice but to take the site down and customers had to claim their accounts through a verification process and change their passwords to a secure one. The lengthy process in verifying thousands of accounts meant that trading didn't resume until one week later. In the case of Bitfinex, it seems there hasn't been any database leaks, so an accounts claims process is probably not needed. But some security issues or bugs within the site may have to be addressed first before normal trading can resume. I am guessing that the recent upgrades to the site in the last week had caused a bug/security vulnerability. Hopefully we will get a statement from Bitfinex soon. |
|
|
|
Of course they don't store a huge sum in a hotwallet.
They can rollback LTC trading, hoping they can rollback BTC aswel (ofcourse stamp is a problem).
Well, consider whatever amount withdrawn lost. They cannot roll back the trades of LTC that have been withdrawn. Bitfinex will most likely cover these losses so no need for us to worry. |
|
|
|
Its more of a matter of how much LTC is in their hot wallet. Minimal trading was done in BTC over the "buggy period"… 175,000 LTC was traded, which is more than the usual 10K daily volume
Which proves that someone was most likely using the BTC price to manipulate loan amounts and profit in LTC trading.
It wouldn't matter if all trades and loans during the period get rolled back. |
|
|
|
I had a great position after a standing order I had at $685 for weeks was just hit. They just deleted that position!
I guess rollback is a good idea but the problem is all the crosstrading with bitstamp. They are going to have a tough time sorting that out without having to eat some lossess themselves.
It didn't seem like many of the orders actually hit Bitstamp. I second this. I was watching Bitstamps trades on Bitcoinwisdom at the time and seemed unaffected by the Bitfinex trades. The huge difference in volumes at the time suggests almost all the trades were matched within Bitfinex's own internal orderbook. |
|
|
|
Thank god it's frozen now. I dunno what Bitfinex team can now as the damage has been done. If they can rollback then that's the best option.
What they do next is what will define them in this market. Let's wait and see.
The only damage would be how many bitcoins/litecoins were withdrawn during the attack. When Gox was attacked, approx. 2,000 bitcoins were withdrawn. Gox covered the losses out of their own pocket. (It was small change to Gox at the time). I highly doubt Bitfinex keeps more than a few hundred bitcoins at a time in a hotwallet. Also, large withdrawals have to be processed manually. |
|
|
|
I guess Rafael woke up and froze trading. Something similar happened to Gox back in 2011 while Mark was asleep and btc dropped to $0.01. When Mark woke up trading was frozen and trades were rolled back to before the attack happened. I guess we are going to get a rollback. |
|
|
|
But the other options now have had a head start.  Maybe you should reset the poll. But if not it's fine with me.  The best I could come up with without resetting the poll was to post where the vote was at when I added "mBT" an option. That way, whoever wants can subtract those votes to see how it resonates with new voters. Fair enough. |
|
|
|
How about:
10 xBT = 10 bitcoins
10 mBT = 10 millibits
10 uBT = 10 microbits
As simple as possible.
I've added mBT as an option to the poll. Thanks. But the other options now have had a head start. Maybe you should reset the poll. But if not it's fine with me. |
|
|
|
Still not clear to me which way the market is moving. Sold at Btc-e between 880-900 a couple of weeks back. Was hoping for 600s.
I think the market is going to continue to move sideways for a few more weeks. The longer the better. Finding price stability again after a big move up is good. |
|
|
|
At least 2 years. Oprah would have little effect on the price because by then many people would already own bitcoins and those who buy then would be dealing in millibits.  |
|
|
|
Hmmm... MtGox 947 Stamp 810 Gox is 17% above Stamp!  This is the highest I've ever seen and I check the prices daily! |
|
|
|
|
