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41  Economy / Speculation / Re: Chart analysis: 4 month chance for rally ahead !! on: September 16, 2011, 06:12:04 AM
you simply have to look at what's going on in the real Bitcoin-world and stop looking at charts.
42  Economy / Speculation / Re: Chart analysis: 4 month chance for rally ahead !! on: September 13, 2011, 08:02:04 PM
If you can't explain why you decided to draw a line on a chart (ie the economic theory that supports it) you probably shouldn't post it, just saying.
43  Economy / Speculation / Re: How I plan to help the bitcoin economy. on: September 13, 2011, 07:45:57 PM
I like bitcoin and I also support other cryptocurrencies. But bitcoin is currency and was RARELY used for that in the last year. Bitcoin was not designed to make me or you wealthy, was designed for us to get out from bank's control.

Also please keep in mind that bitcoin is unique, the first of it's kind so its problems are unique. I believe that in year 1 bitcoin will be more than $100. But that will happen slowly and only after the economy is very flourishing.

So, the solution I see is that people starts to buy and sell things using bitcoin. I would like to say that since I've opened my store in April, more than 150 people bought from me. But just 10 using bitcoins.
I am not telling to buy from me, my shop is not very interesting for men, which are the most bitcoin users. But in order bitcoin to succed, you hav3e to buy.

I will keep the exchange rate at +1$ even if 1 BTC = $1 and I hope I will be a good incentive. More than this, I can't see what I could do.
This is exactly how we are going to develop a stable BTC.
44  Economy / Speculation / Re: How I plan to help the bitcoin economy. on: September 13, 2011, 07:45:05 PM
you are absolutely correct, but its difficult for people to have confidence in this currency. Its a gamble by accepting it as form of payment, seeing how quickly value can decline.   Maybe a smarter move for merchants only to accept bitcoin payments or sell goods when value is low, ie: around ~$4 - $6 per bitcoin.  then / when (IF) butcoin value increases, you have made profit off of your sale and profit from the value increase of the coin as well.


you are absolutely wrong. check how Silk Road hedges btc value for sellers, and maybe you will have a clue.
Since I have no intentions of actually doing this sort of research, please enlighten us.
45  Economy / Speculation / Re: USPS Shutdown on: September 13, 2011, 07:37:54 PM
Anyone who wants to blame Bush for the current economic situation is either ignorant or a political hack.  The problems that we face now are systemic, long-term, and wide-spread.  It took the better part of fifty years to get here and irresponsible legislation and business practices, mixed with limited foresight and short-term profit-maximization by firms, special interest groups, AND unions as well as over leveraging of banks businesses, AND individuals.  In short, if you want to find someone to point the finger at, the closest person is probably the guy that looks back at you in the mirror.
46  Economy / Speculation / Re: EVERYONE CALM DOWN on: September 11, 2011, 03:51:42 PM
Can we start panicking now?
Well, you could start panicking at any time, but in reality it isn't going to do anything for you.  It would have been better if you would have started panicking when bitcoin started shooting through the roof, maybe started using that influx of wealth to build infrastructure for bitcoin, so that there would be a place for that money to stay once it got there.
47  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin scam is comming to an end on: September 11, 2011, 03:44:07 PM
It is not a Ponzi scheme, it is a currency market.  What drives a currency market is imports and exports.  It is really difficult to see the importing and exporting to and from the bitcoin economy, but it happens.  If a miner wants to use the bitcoins he mined to pay his power bill, he has to exchange them for USD or Euros because the power company doesn't accept bitcoins as payment.  This means that the miner is importing power into the bitcoin economy, which drives the bitcoin's price down.  When Joe Average wants to buy some organic coffee from so-and-so bitcoin vender, they have to go to buy bitcoins before they can make this transaction.  This is an export, which drives bitcoin's price up.  Also, if you buy something in USD then sell it in bitcoins to a bitcoin miner, you are still importing.  Likewise, if you buy something in bitcoins then sell it for USD you are exporting.  When imports matches exports, you'll have a stable currency.

true, but it has value as a low cost means of cross border exchange where only rapid price variation is a problem.

if I want to sell an investment worth £30,000 to potential investors, I can do so on a global market, and repay later at whatever the exchange has floated to.

Eventually the price will stabalise based on that growing market of cross border exchange + the cost of electricity killing miners. Eventually the price will bobble above and below some break even with regards to mining?
Pretty much yes.  What we seen with the giant jump was a lot of money flooding in to a really cool idea that everyone wanted to invest in, because there was no place for that money to go (ie actual investments inside the bitcoin economy) it is now flooding out.  We've seen this happen before in brick-and-mortar economies, Singapore is the best example that comes to mind.  As far as bitcoin acting as a "middle-man" currency, the valuation is only going to affect prices based on the lag time between currency exchanges, and given that in a virtual economy, lag times tend to be very short, we can expect this to have minimal effect on the system over-all.
48  Economy / Speculation / Re: the real, actual, true, accurate reason the price dropped on: September 08, 2011, 07:05:02 PM
I think part of reason is problems with various service, one as MtGox, it can not hurt if you find out that company which your holds money is badly run and have some security issues. Increasing dificulty and issues in economy which might have make some persons to cash out and leave the "game".
Those people weren't really in the game to start with.
49  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What do businesses and customers actually need from digital currency? on: September 08, 2011, 04:35:52 PM
Wholesalers
50  Economy / Economics / Re: The Bitcoin Printing Press Problem on: September 08, 2011, 04:20:32 PM
Miners do not drop out anyway, as a whole so I don't see difficulty decreasing significantly.
Take a look at this graph


some force is preventing the 14day moving average to cross 0% growth.
I say its when a miner stops he sells his gear to another miner, with no effect on the network except a short downtime during the shipping of gear.
It could also be that a lot of miners got in expecting the BTC price to be x, but now its lower, so they are operating at or near a loss,
51  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin scam is comming to an end on: September 08, 2011, 04:05:38 PM
It is not a Ponzi scheme, it is a currency market.  What drives a currency market is imports and exports.  It is really difficult to see the importing and exporting to and from the bitcoin economy, but it happens.  If a miner wants to use the bitcoins he mined to pay his power bill, he has to exchange them for USD or Euros because the power company doesn't accept bitcoins as payment.  This means that the miner is importing power into the bitcoin economy, which drives the bitcoin's price down.  When Joe Average wants to buy some organic coffee from so-and-so bitcoin vender, they have to go to buy bitcoins before they can make this transaction.  This is an export, which drives bitcoin's price up.  Also, if you buy something in USD then sell it in bitcoins to a bitcoin miner, you are still importing.  Likewise, if you buy something in bitcoins then sell it for USD you are exporting.  When imports matches exports, you'll have a stable currency.
52  Economy / Speculation / Re: Google trends = price? on: September 08, 2011, 03:56:40 PM
If ones wants to put any stock in that.. you then have to assume fresh blood (money) is needed to prop
up this system. Also known as a ponzi scheme. Hate to say it but that seems to be the case. This is not
a closed system. USD(whatever) is being taken out of the system and not enough is coming back in. This
might not always be the case but it sure does feel like it.

Wow. I am the negative. I am the troll.
It is not a Ponzi scheme, it is a currency market.  What drives a currency market is imports and exports.  It is really difficult to see the importing and exporting to and from the bitcoin economy, but it happens.  If a miner wants to use the bitcoins he mined to pay his power bill, he has to exchange them for USD or Euros because the power company doesn't accept bitcoins as payment.  This means that the miner is importing power into the bitcoin economy, which drives the bitcoin's price down.  When Joe Average wants to buy some organic coffee from so-and-so bitcoin vender, they have to go to buy bitcoins before they can make this transaction.  This is an export, which drives bitcoin's price up.  Also, if you buy something in USD then sell it in bitcoins to a bitcoin miner, you are still importing.  Likewise, if you buy something in bitcoins then sell it for USD you are exporting.  When imports matches exports, you'll have a stable currency.
53  Economy / Speculation / Explain on: September 07, 2011, 06:32:38 PM
I've read several people say, "The fundamentals are solid".  I don't have any idea what fundamentals these people are talking about.  So, if someone could try to enlighten me, that would be great.
54  Economy / Speculation / Re: Blood in the Streets on: September 07, 2011, 06:25:21 PM

Services are much different than tangible products, and tangible products are where the real market is.
an export is an export
55  Economy / Speculation / Re: I confess on: September 07, 2011, 06:21:35 PM
Price would be in $9 if someone hadn't sold 10,000 at 7.50 down to 6.90 and now it has been stagnating, but not falling.
?
56  Economy / Speculation / Re: Looks like the Manipulator is back in the market. Buy-hold-SELL SELL SELL on: September 07, 2011, 06:19:08 PM
All hail the manipulator! Save us manipulator!  Grin
like
57  Economy / Speculation / Re: the real, actual, true, accurate reason the price dropped on: September 07, 2011, 06:16:38 PM
There is no reason to assume the opinion of suppliers should have a major impact on price at constant supply.

Sure, Bitcoin does indeed have a lot of small miners who might tend to sell at certain times rather than at others. But that is exactly where speculators come in, acting as a buffer against such fluctuations. Bitcoin has a massive amounts of speculators, their opinion should dwarf what miners decide about doing with a month's output.

A miner who decides to hold no matter what is nothing more than a speculator in the end. Whether he bought the coins at some price or the hardware for another makes little difference. Just like a speculator, some got the coins cheaper early. There is no time-frame in which an ending amortization time should cause more coins to be sold than at another time -- except immediately after a price rise, which obviously didn't happen much, given the speculative bubble we've seen in June. Had lots of people sold off mined coins when rising prices made their value met expenses for their hardware, the extreme price spike would probably not have happened.

Also, I find models focusing on mining increasingly useless, as the fraction of coins that have been recently mined grows smaller by the day. With over 7.2M BTC created, daily production is now falling below 0.1% of the existing coins. The relative fraction keeps diminishing, and they are shared among many small miners these days.

That said, I believe the statement to be false. Miner hardware amortization time may be important for difficulty, but is unimportant to price. Speculation is dominant, and thus the important part lies in the expectations of those holding or buying BTC.


PS: I find it bad practice to chain words like "real, actual, true, accurate" in a topic. Interestingly, such findings correlate well with false statements inside.
long term speculators should have very little to do with the value of any currency, including bitcoins.  The value of the currency will be driven by the demand for goods in the bitcoin economy by those outside the bitcoin community (exports) verses the demand for goods outside the bitcoin economy by those inside it (imports).  I see imports to be drastically higher than exports; therefore, prices will fall until imports and exports equalize.
58  Economy / Speculation / Re: the real, actual, true, accurate reason the price dropped on: September 07, 2011, 04:56:47 PM
I've seen a lot of minor reasons why it dropped but the real reason is obvious.  The distance in time from when GPU mining really took off to about a week ago is approximately the time it takes to pay off the average efficient set of cards.  If I mined from April to now, my cards would be paid off too.  So people with lower budget simple rigs are hitting that level and thinking about selling for USD or permanently withdrawing their USD from the exchange so their long term investment ends nicely instead of continuing to risk it.

The majority of miners joined to make money/get "free" cards so if you've made around the cost of your rig and saw the price drop and stay there for a few days then sneak down a little more then stay there and show no sign of raising but you're sitting on like 30-50BTC, you're going to take the opportunity to dump them all on the market just in case it drops to like $2 and ruins your entire mining experience.

Unlike other people, I'm going to actually post evidence.  2 months ago there were about 8 radeon 5830's on ebay with the cheapest at $140.  Now there's 38, almost all used, almost all referencing bitcoins, and the cheapest around $127.  People are definitely selling off their rigs now that the price dropped and they've already "cashed out."

What's not causing the drop is:

- investors because no investor sees it drop like $2-3 and decides to sell.  That doesn't make any sense and if they're as stubborn as me, they won't sell it at a loss even if it takes 6 months of sitting on BTC to prevent it.

- any blog post, news article, or forum post caused it because our opinions on BTC is pretty set in stone and can't be shaken by something so insignificant.

- a massive theft and sell-off because we should have heard about it by now.  It would have been at least like 500,000 BTC to get to this price and that's almost 10% of all coins that exist.
Great real-world analysis!
59  Economy / Speculation / Re: Blood in the Streets on: September 07, 2011, 04:43:50 PM
I heard that someone was trying to build a bitcoin vending machine on an arduino forum.  That would definitely help the bitcoin economy.
60  Economy / Speculation / Re: We control the prices... Not these bears. We got what they can't have... on: September 07, 2011, 04:10:28 PM
Quote
I have the impression that the OP would like to see something like a Miners Guild that would set the price and prevent anyone from selling below it.

I would actually love to see this. All free market cartels in history have failed so it would be interesting to see it happen again and not just read about it.
Especially when there is no way to enforce the cartel price.
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