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41  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 12, 2013, 04:40:49 AM
IF you want to refund the shares, the price should add the trading fees at least! NOT 0.016!>Sad

please read carefully, we will pay the whole 128BTC (32064-31936)
42  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 12, 2013, 04:30:18 AM
I don't really understand this, OBVIOUSLY you expose yourself to these risks - Was this really not thought about prior to the IPO?

not that much until we have been reported to police.

in addition, a lot of new teams are doing the same without  even a creative prospectus. we are worried to be involved in.

We cannot ignore all of these info and keep holding your Bitcoin irresponsibly.


However,we are not quit. We will keep going with our hardwares/chips`s sale & internationalize btcman.com ASAP. I will also try my best to build up our new company oversea in the near future.
43  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 12, 2013, 03:39:20 AM
IMPORTANT NOTICE

Due to some unexpected legal risks we met last week, we have to, cancel this IPO and buyback/repurchase entire two million shares of BTCGARDEN we issued at btct.co.

We will buy back all shares with the whole price of 32064btc. I.e,we will pay for commissions to let all shareholders get back their Bitcoin with the price of 0.016btc/share.

I would like to say thank you & sorry to all of our investors/supporters/ potential investors in advance before I explain the whole affair. Thank you for all of your trust and support, sorry for the final decision we have made.

The whole story:

In August 05th , 2013, a chinese BTCer posted threads/mailed us several times at btcman.com with extreme bad tone, threatening that he need to inspect and review our company to see whether we are real and trustworthy, otherwise he would do something bad to us.  Being the nature of the business, such request can not be satisfied.  So we agreed that we could buy back his shares on btct.co.However,he asked for a higher price and require us to transfer the Bitcoin to him first.  We then searched for his email address and his account on net, what shocked us was that he has a long history of cyber-fraud activities in china, he did not even change his ID and email in the past several years and due to the terrible chinese laws, he has not been arrested.

With those information, we realize that we were being extorted and obviously refused to transfer first.We banned his account at btcman.com after he continued to attack us there. One day later, he opened a new thread at bitcointalk`s chinese board and post a reply at our official thread in chinese as you can find, saying full of lies and persuading other people to join his group to against us. Although he cannot even speak english, an english spoken shareholder still talked with him through IM software&google translator and helped him to find out some personal info of one of our staff of btcman.com. (not btcgarden).  The racketeer then reported our staff/sites/this BTC-IPO to police with several completely falsified evidences such as:
* He accused us of asking people in China to first buy bitcoin from btcsea.com and then use those bitcoins to purchase shares from btct.co.  This way, it would appear that we are collecting RMB almost directly from the end purchaser.  Fact:  we never did such thing, btcsea's traffic wasn't much different in those days of IPO as any other day before that.
* He accused us of ponzi scheme in our IPO, and claimed that he has lost of a lot of money because of that.  Fact: when he first started the thread on btcman.com, stock price was slight higher than IPO price.  After that, stock price stayed close to IPO price all those days, so how could he possibly have suffered massive lose because of this.  And he forgot to mention we agreed to purchase back the share at IPO price as long as he would transfer first so he could avoid the "MASSIVE" lose.(BTW:he has only 1 share of BTCGARDEN at the moment)

After discussing inside, we decide to stay away from the IPO at this point as the fairness of laws in this area are full of big uncertainties. We hardly undertake such an undefined risk especially with many scamers out there seemingly targeting the bitcoin companies in China .

(Latest update: currently, a lot of teams in china are planning IPO at BTC community ,some of them do not even have an creative & original prospectus ,which in our side,make this even more dangerous.)

We therefore have to give up this IPO and repurchase all issued shares. Hope all of you can understand this.


Procedures:

We have already confirmed the whole process with Burnside (manager of btct.co),

1 We will lock the trading of BTCGARDEN at btct immediately.
2 We will then send the whole 32064BTC and submit the repurchase request to Burnside from backstage, he will then run the proper script to execute this request ASAP.
3 All current shareholders will get your BTC back into your account immediately,at which point you can withdraw it freely.

All of above will be finished in 24-48 hours from the time you see this notice.

Future plan:

1 .We will not issue any other asset until we can fully build up our new company oversea(hopefully soon), or laws in China become clear about bitcoin (not hopefully, imo, many laws are intentionally vague so they can interpret them in a way that best suit their interest)

2. Our ASIC project will be switched to a "self-miner+seller"mode,i.e. we will only use our own money and mining-income to invest our enterprise and sell chips/mining-hardwares with only BTC and B2B accepted.  Needless to say, this will cause a huge funding shortage and we have no choice but to change our previous plan so much.

3. Btcman.com will be changed to an international site with english info included.(BTW:all english editors/journalists who are interested in this please mail us.  We have almost finished the new layout of btcman.com, as some of our members might already knew.)

4. Any questions/suggestions from our previous investors are very welcomed, please mail me through your email of btct account. (FYI: messages/mails with regards to direct-investment to us is discussible but please keep in mind that this mode will be very hard to most of you because you can not sell it as easy as stocks)

5. We have backed up the list of our investors, we will think about what we can do for all of you later on. (a discount for our hardwares/other products might be possible)

Again, thanks to all our supportors.

Finally, special thanks to a big name at Bitcoin community, whom might not want his id be mentioned here despite he has already been well known as a nice & successful BTCer.

44  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 05, 2013, 04:01:23 AM
Hello everyone...er... Hello every shareholder,

1  About that "big news" regards to Avalon:  

        1  From a thread at btcman.com that was posted by a ID called "gridchip" last month, we (incl. all btcman`s members) can sure that Avalon team do have a big discord inside. It was written in chinese and need to register&login to read ,so I d prefer not giving the link here (all chinese shareholders can find it at "比特币挖矿区" board) However, I hardly believe the rest of this news is real.

        2  We have created a Mathematical Model for our future strategy , which shows that we can easily make money with our 1st gen chips before the whole network reach to 4000TH, in addition,both cost saving and rate-raising could make this Number even higher and therefore prolonging the duration of service life of our 130nm chips, furthermore, we will be seeing our 40nm at the end of 2013. The MM is still being adjusted and several Complex variables will be added on later, I d like to give out a screenshot of it:




2  I ll upload the photos of PCB & the "big review meeting" in Saturday , while all members of our team will be in Beijing.
45  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 03, 2013, 02:11:25 PM
Just login to say thank you to all of shareholders of BTCGARDEN! we finished our IPO several hours earlier!

This seems pretty richly valued for an IPO after sucking up 32,000BTCs on btct.co in short order...then there's another 2,000,000 shares coming at higher prices? That's 6x the daily average on btct.co already poured into the garden in just over a day. I'm not seeing much room for further upside at this point, but good luck fellas.

The panic such comments could trigger  Grin

2 M additional shares may not come for several more months. Will only be issued after a milestone and at a higher price.

Edit: Trying to get some btc back to basic-mining  Grin ?

Basicly our Financial Management will be

* We use this 3 millions dollars IPO funds for :
                                                              Mass production of 1st gen chips to a big amount (exact no. might depends but 500TH as minimum beside the 200TH we have already paid),
                                                              deploying all of them.
                                                              the research and Tapeout (samples with fulll mask) 2nd gen chips (40nm most likely).

This process might last,as you said, several months.

* the Mass production of our 2nd gen chips might be a possible reason to launch our 2nd batch of shares.
* All of cost expense (incl.electricity ,rent,salary..etc) will be deducted from our income, the rest of which will be fully paid out as share dividends.


we are gonna bank this bitch.

Translation: Us fine gentlemen are going to see a large return in our investment.

 Grin Grin Grin

Can anybody join the meeting in Beijing? I would like to join ^^

sry it is not allowed, a lot of photos will be uploaded though.


Quote
"the rest of 2,000,000 shares will be issued with higher price as soon as the first 2,000,000 shares have been sold out"

I think this part of the prospectus is needed to be updated to reflect the latest decision of not releasing the second batch of shares until a significant milestone is achieved.

i ll change it on our prospectus ,thank you.
46  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 03, 2013, 06:34:25 AM
Thankx so much for the translation although in my side its more or less inaccurate. Smiley

Here re lines about the 2ed-batch.

1. Please notice that: All of you 1st batch of shareholders ,without whom neither this IPO nor our big project would be possible , are our most precious capital. We are  in the same boat and we promise to do our best to line your pockets.

2. Please notice that the 2ed batch of BTCGARDEN will

    *be impossible to issue before we reach a significant milestone in the development of our project.
 
    *a portion of 2nd batch shares will be used for "protecting the interests" of our shareholders,which means that there is a possibility that we will not issue all of the 2nd batch of 2,000,000 shares in future. I cannot expand this at the moment but I d like to say this could be a very good deal/offer to all our shareholders.

    *Certainly , the price of 2ed will be higher than the 1st.


Update :

We have received our sample-PCB and it is being tested in every aspect. Everything s running well so far. ( Mass production of PCBs will start later and can be finished within one week in Shenzhen)
We also dealed with an acquaintances packaging factory to shorten the Package period from 10days to 3days. I.E. we will get our chips in hand only 3-4 days later after out of  Fab.
We will hold a meeting next weekend in Beijing to discuz our future plans incl.: 2nd gen chips, deployment plans for 1st gen chips, application of analog circuit  in our project , a lot of experts both on R and D have been invited.
47  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 02, 2013, 08:13:07 AM
Update:

an video of our FPGA  prototype :  http://www.btcgarden.com/videos.jsp  

We had finished this in May although the video was just made 2 hours ago by our engineers at Xi`An

BTW : YOUTUBE is blocked in mainland china for a long long time,so all chinese shareholders please wait for a youku version later at btcman ,sry Sad

Here s a pic of it




some pictures of our deploment methods have been uploaded to http://www.btcgarden.com/deployment.jsp

We dont want to give out the chinese-writing part because it maybe useful to our potential opponents.

BTW: this method is based on water-cooling ,which is expensive , we also have a blower method as cheap as ASICMINER`s, we will try both of them at beginning to see which one is better.

Infos of our 1st-batch with 12+300(Engineering Sample &Mass Production) wafers: 312 wafers * 2000chips/wafer*400MH/chip = 249TH/s ,any overclock will let the estimate even higher. The contract
will not be shown out because so many infos included, which are not proper to show out and make no sense if we hide them all.



I ll reply other questions later ,too busy to do it now.

48  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 08:57:38 PM

Well ,make sense, my fault. We should explain anything to our potential shareholders indeed .

All potential shareholders worried about that weird question please at least learn to distinguish between the following : simulation / FPGA verification / real ASIC chip`s test.

In terms of other questions, it is AM 4:55 here. I ll reply after I get up.
49  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 07:54:02 PM
To all shareholders : Since all of our reputation is only based on chinese community,we ll give out some pics of equipments/devices and upload our deployment schemes soon to enhance your understanding of us.

To those doubters with "ASICMiner USB Block Erupter"-related talks : I feel somewhat depressed and was beaten!--- Do our team look that stupid ?  Show out a USB-ASIC MINER as our deception ?How could be more stupid than this ? any suggestion?

I don't remember where I read it but someone reminded me of the intention to provide videos as updates rather than photos on a daily basis. I think that would go a long way. A youtube channel or something like that would be ideal where people could subscribe to the video updates.


We can promise this. But maybe "daily" is too often to achieve.“ Weekly ”might be an acceptable rate

Found it (from here):

Quote
4.   Q & A

Q:Do you guys have any relationship with ASICMINER or AVALON?

A: No, but we do have a similar background. We also had some contacts with them through either IM tools or in person, although some of their thoughts / behaviours are hardly accepted by us.

Q: how to guarantee the transparency ? I know that a 100% provable openness is impossible in BTC world,but what can you offer as your best?

A: A daily video will be upload every day to show out how much we have digged out. It will be better than pure pictures or photos which can easily be photoshoped. We may adopt a lot of methods like this to reduce the probability we do anything dirty.

Q: Is there a list to show out all the solutions of those possible accidents? For instance, chips broken within first year; unexpected huge hashrate influent our income so much;equipments in the machinery rooms get stolen; Website get hacked;how long time is needed for deploying the first 100T;how to define the”first year”, if there are some offline-days in the first year, is any kind of compensation/refund offered…etc.

A:As we metioned on the 3rd part, we still haven’t decided which mode to choose yet, if we finally prefer Mode B to A, then all kinds of questions may be posted on somewhere at our website and will be replied asap.

 Grin  Ok then  it is not a big deal, we can hire a guy to do this if needed.
50  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
To all shareholders : Since all of our reputation is only based on chinese community,we ll give out some pics of equipments/devices and upload our deployment schemes soon to enhance your understanding of us.

To those doubters with "ASICMiner USB Block Erupter"-related talks : I feel somewhat depressed and was beaten!--- Do our team look that stupid ?  Show out a USB-ASIC MINER as our deception ?How could be more stupid than this ? any suggestion?

I don't remember where I read it but someone reminded me of the intention to provide videos as updates rather than photos on a daily basis. I think that would go a long way. A youtube channel or something like that would be ideal where people could subscribe to the video updates.


We can promise this. But maybe "daily" is too often to achieve.“ Weekly ”might be an acceptable rate (BTW:Videos will be made for our live mining instead of private informations)
51  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 07:33:16 PM
To all shareholders : Since all of our reputation is only based on chinese community,we ll give out some pics of equipments/devices and upload our deployment schemes soon to enhance your understanding of us.

To those doubters with "ASICMiner USB Block Erupter"-related talks : I feel somewhat depressed and was beaten!--- Do our team look that stupid ?  Show out a USB-ASIC MINER as our deception ?How could be more stupid than this ? any suggestion?

You might want to look into a translator other than Google, as well. Your block eruptor can probably pay for one in about five years.

 Grin Grin Grin well actually i prefer BAIDU translator when needed.

also,Just curious:u r not our shareholders and will never be,  then for what kind of pleasure you r seeking to push you waste your life to black others here?  Grin
52  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 06:41:53 PM
To all shareholders : Since all of our reputation is only based on chinese community,we ll give out some pics of equipments/devices and upload our deployment schemes soon to enhance your understanding of us.

To those doubters with "ASICMiner USB Block Erupter"-related talks : I feel somewhat depressed and was beaten!--- Do our team look that stupid ?  Show out a USB-ASIC MINER as our deception ?How could be more ?suggestion?
53  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 06:19:40 PM

 Smiley  We will


 Due to the troubles from both english and functions of the platform, many chinese BTCers and members of btcman.com are still learning how to use btct.co at the moment. Grin



Thanks for Franktank`s explaination in this thread.  I would like to emphasize the usage of the IPO funds again:

1. Second batch with a huge amount of wafers.
2. Deployment costs for at least several hundreds TH.
3. 2ed-gen chips, 80% odds to 40nm and 20% to 55nm.(BTW: again, 28nm is unrealistic due to the capacity of Fab and the cost )
4. We run this project as a long-term biz, so we need to reserve a part of funds with RMB (CNY,chinese legal money). We need to hold an amount of funds in order to meet probable demands or possible risks.
5. At least currently, our stock is probably not that good for pure speculators.

aiwill,far less optimistically I expect it'll take days or even weeks to sell out the first 2 million.What if you cannot raise enough funds in a short time?I'm afraid this may cause a delay of your 2nd batch of chips.You know,any delay could mean heavy losses in BTC mining industry.
Anyway,I’ve bought a few of it.  Wink
 


hi, by far, we have already gathered a decent amount of funds for our further progress. We ll adjust our plan whenever it is needed. The 2nd batch is the most important part and will have priority. The amount of 2nd batch`s wafers is with basis of our funds too. In addition, we are going to reinvest a larger percentage of our income whenever we have a shortage on funds and  vice versa.
54  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 06:09:01 PM
Apologies if it's already been noted, but the pricing is up on the website.

http://www.btcgarden.com/products.do

0.45 BTC/GH.

this is not the final price since it is based on the shippment from this Aug.
most likely our products will be cheaper than this.
55  Economy / Securities / Re: BTCGarden Overview & Speculation Thread on: August 01, 2013, 11:22:37 AM
I like such a thread~~~

Quote

I think there is one more protection that shareholders should be pushing for. (Or should have pushed for before the IPO)
That is - that all newly issued shares should be in exchange for more capital only... ie not as 'rewards' to staff/management.
There is nothing I can see in the statements above that would stop them issuing 'free' (or cheap) shares to insiders at the same time as they issue more for capital.

I have no problem with the share dilution if it's done purely to grow the company and the shares are issued at a fair market price.



thankyou for ur advices.

Some of our staffs did buyin a lot of public shares from BTCT personally (with same treatments as others -- big confidence on this project pushed them to do so). It is not big but since your advice really make sense, We ll think about adding some terms relating to this later.
56  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 10:54:49 AM
27% of the 1st share batch now sold.

Not exactly exciting - but still looks to me like they'll fill this batch in a few days.


 Smiley  We will


 Due to the troubles from both english and functions of the platform, many chinese BTCers and members of btcman.com are still learning how to use btct.co at the moment. Grin



Thanks for Franktank`s explaination in this thread.  I would like to emphasize the usage of the IPO funds again:

1. Second batch with a huge amount of wafers.
2. Deployment costs for at least several hundreds TH.
3. 2ed-gen chips, 80% odds to 40nm and 20% to 55nm.(BTW: again, 28nm is unrealistic due to the capacity of Fab and the cost )
4. We run this project as a long-term biz, so we need to reserve a part of funds with RMB (CNY,chinese legal money). We need to hold an amount of funds in order to meet probable demands or possible risks.
5. At least currently, our stock is probably not that good for pure speculators.
57  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 01, 2013, 05:17:41 AM
Too busy to read through all replys, we might should give an ANN of IPO in advance , sry for any possible inconvenience.

and yes, it has begun :  https://btct.co/security/BTCGARDEN ,We've already put up 2,000,000 shares at the price 0.016BTC per share,  about 470,000 shares traded till now.






58  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: July 31, 2013, 10:52:23 AM
I'm following the project with keen interest and in serious consideration,but I'm confused about a few key issues in your prospectus.

1.Which stock on earth is to be issued?BTCSEA Co.Ltd's stock or BTCGARDEN's stock?

According to the rules of stock market,if it's BTCSEA Co.Ltd's stock,then each share should be given 1/10000000 of the BTCSEA Co.Ltd's total
profits(including but not limited to BTCGARDEN's profits,e.g.BTCSEA trading platform as I know),right?In this case,I would prefer to change the name of the stock to BTCSEA.

If it's BTCGARDEN's stock,then each share should be given 1/4000000 of the BTCGARDEN Project's total profits.

Which of the above comprehension is correct?Please make an explanation for this.

2.A similar question,if you issue additional shares in the future,which will it be?(BTCSEA Co.Ltd's or BTCGARDEN's)

3.What is the pricing basis?

4.If sharp fluctuations in exchange rates occur,will you reprice the stock?

5.You declare that "Any dilution will not be allowed before Aug.1st,2014.".Is it a bottom line that can not be changed?

6.Have you set a firm date for this IPO?Before or after the test of your first batch of chips?

7.Is this the final version of your prospectus?If not,when will it be published?

8.May I go to your company for a field investigation?

Please take into consideration all these issues.Perhaps you can add a supplement concerning such issues to the prospectus.
Looking forward to your reply.Thank you.


1,2  BTCGARDEN is to be issued.  thank you for ur advice and sry for the possible misunderstanding. BTCSEA CO.,Ltd is the name of our company for this project(BTCGARDEN)and BTCSEA.COM is our exchange platform for RMB(chinese currency), the platform has no relation with this project although we used the same name when we created the platform.

3,4 we need reserve.We need to hold an amount of funds in order to meet probable demands or possible risks.

5, Yeah.Cannot be changed as well as the other necessary conditions.

6 Before of it. IPO will start just after we pass the vote.

7 No more big changes but small ones before the open date for buying.

8 We are not but will be available later, furthermore, we are going to invite some voted supervisors to come to our places.



Thank you.So each share can get 1/10000000 of the BTCGARDEN Project's total profits?

Correct,  profits incl.: mining incomes, sales incomes of hardwares,deployment scheme, even 1st-gen chips after we get our 2-ed gen in hand.
59  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: July 31, 2013, 04:17:42 AM
I'm following the project with keen interest and in serious consideration,but I'm confused about a few key issues in your prospectus.

1.Which stock on earth is to be issued?BTCSEA Co.Ltd's stock or BTCGARDEN's stock?

According to the rules of stock market,if it's BTCSEA Co.Ltd's stock,then each share should be given 1/10000000 of the BTCSEA Co.Ltd's total
profits(including but not limited to BTCGARDEN's profits,e.g.BTCSEA trading platform as I know),right?In this case,I would prefer to change the name of the stock to BTCSEA.

If it's BTCGARDEN's stock,then each share should be given 1/4000000 of the BTCGARDEN Project's total profits.

Which of the above comprehension is correct?Please make an explanation for this.

2.A similar question,if you issue additional shares in the future,which will it be?(BTCSEA Co.Ltd's or BTCGARDEN's)

3.What is the pricing basis?

4.If sharp fluctuations in exchange rates occur,will you reprice the stock?

5.You declare that "Any dilution will not be allowed before Aug.1st,2014.".Is it a bottom line that can not be changed?

6.Have you set a firm date for this IPO?Before or after the test of your first batch of chips?

7.Is this the final version of your prospectus?If not,when will it be published?

8.May I go to your company for a field investigation?

Please take into consideration all these issues.Perhaps you can add a supplement concerning such issues to the prospectus.
Looking forward to your reply.Thank you.


1,2  BTCGARDEN is to be issued.  thank you for ur advice and sry for the possible misunderstanding. BTCSEA CO.,Ltd is the name of our company for this project(BTCGARDEN)and BTCSEA.COM is our exchange platform for RMB(chinese currency), the platform has no relation with this project although we used the same name when we created the platform.

3,4 we need reserve.We need to hold an amount of funds in order to meet probable demands or possible risks.

5, Yeah.Cannot be changed as well as the other necessary conditions.

6 Before of it. IPO will start just after we pass the vote.

7 No more big changes but small ones before the open date for buying.

8 We are not but will be available later, furthermore, we are going to invite some voted supervisors to come to our places.


60  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO] [FAQ]BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: July 31, 2013, 12:56:08 AM
10% yearly share dilution is on the table!
otherwise things sound reasonable. anyone from china can do some background due diligence on these people?

please view bbs.btcman.com  Smiley
maybe u could get some useful info through translator
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