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4101  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [BOUNTY] Announcements for Nxt (the first pure POS coin) on: January 05, 2014, 04:50:48 AM
not asking for bounty because i already got 200k from this thread which i think was more than generous but it seems like this thread has also become sort of the aggregation for articles of this sort so i will post it here with the others so that maybe it will be read.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E_ToOMG2l1XThx6YnyXEajXaf6H1k2yjq8XkAF0ScB4/
4102  Economy / Economics / Re: Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer on: January 04, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

they cant use their own checkbook money but the checkbook money they hold on deposit for others is considered as reserve.
4103  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: Trading Thread for Nxt :: Descendant of Bitcoin on: January 04, 2014, 07:55:53 PM
I know there was an orderbook early on but it does not seem to be maintained. I have some experience running an altcoin orderbook and doing escrow for it. Would anyone be interested in my providing this service for NXT?
4104  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: Trading Thread for Nxt :: Descendant of Bitcoin on: January 04, 2014, 06:26:12 PM
Guys, how much fees are acceptable to you for opening a new exchange?

I personally prefer to see trading fees and not withdrawal fees. I dont mind paying 0.35% for entrance and exit (0.7% Round-Trip), and for that to be reduced for increased volume trading.
Well said - I think withdrawal fees are immoral.

it cant be immoral if the interactions are purely voluntary Cheesy

immorality implies imposition.
4105  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Nxt source code flaw reports on: January 04, 2014, 06:18:05 PM
Now for the interesting 75% part:
You can calculate in advance, which nonce each of your accounts would have and then choose the best one. So statistically speaking, all your accounts are behaving like accounts with your 0.98% stake in them. And you can freely choose between any of the 100.000 accounts in advance, already knowing the nonce. The chance that one of them has a nonce so good that it's better than all the others is extremely high: If you'd (theoretically speaking) combine all of those 100,000 accounts with 0.98% stake each, you have a stake of 98,000 % (yes, I know, that's more than 100%, but that's the whole point of having the prior knowledge Smiley). So the total stake of the currency for that next block becomes 98,000 % (you) + 99.02 % (others) = 98,099.02 %. Which means, you suddenly own nearly 99.9 % of the stake and have the respective chance of forging that block.

So with that methodology, we have a forging chance of 25%*0.98%+75%*99.9% = 75.17 %.

Good catch. Looks like this trick will work if u r the only one who uses this strategy. Will freezing recently moved coins for 1440 blocks solve the issue?

PS: It's not the injected flaw, but still post ur Nxt account for 10K reward plz.

Wait a minute.... another possibly better solution could be for the generation signature to include a hash of the transactions contained in the block.

1) Suppose you've forged the current block B1 with account a1, but have not broadcast it.
2) Next, you compute corresponding generating signature sig(B1).
3) From this, you calculate the subordinate account a2 (one of your 100 pre-generated accounts) that generates the next block B2.
4) However, the transaction to move your NXT stake from a1 -> a2 (so you are able to solve B2) must to be part of B1.
5) So, you need to update the current block C with transaction a1 -> a2 and re-generate the generating sig(B1).
6) However, you've now changed B1, so you need to goto step (3) and repeat the process.

Thus, we have thwarted the adversary with a chicken-or-egg/halting-problem kind of puzzle.

Does this work as a solution?

Maybe a hash of the transactions is already included in the generation signature, in which case there was no issue in the first place.

Also, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=397183.msg4307553#msg4307553 seems to indicate that my earlier recollection that there is a 1440 block forging penalty for transferred coins is true.

Quote
In essence it works by having the author of the next block be selected by comparing the public key that he is using to hold his stake to the public key of the author of the previous block. In-order to prevent the new block author from simply creating a public key that would win and loading that public key with his stake BTCNext introduced the idea of effective stake. Only stake that has remained stationary for 1440 blocks (24 hours) has the right to author a block. Would be attackers can not calculate 1440 blocks into the future because they have no idea who is going to author the very next block, let alone the next 1440 blocks. Inorder to prevent an attacker from creating a "trap" where if he manages to become lucky enough to author one block in the future than he has prepared a set of funded addresses which would "catch" the subsequent blocks, we don't only rely on the previous block authors signature alone, but build an entirely separate "block chain" which is the result of hashing every public key ever used to author a block.

However, the source code defines getEffectiveBlance() with

Quote
...
         if (Block.getLastBlock().height - height < 1440) {

            return 0;

         }
...
which seems to imply the 1440 penalty is on the account, rather than on the NXT balance.

Could someone please confirm whether either of my two solutions work and whether they are already, in fact, implemented in the latest source code?

I'm not entirely sure that i understand exactly what you are proposing, but while you are quoting my work anyway, i think it may be important to point out this particularly important part

Quote
You see, you can't just hash the previous block and use the digest as the parameter for selecting the winner of the right to author the next block because, the block authors would contrive transactions in that block that digested into a hash that gave him the the right to author the next block. In-fact you cant base it off of a digest of any part of the block that the author has free reign over or you will run into the same problem.

This would include transactions because the block author has the choice of which transactions to include and which not to include.
4106  Economy / Economics / Re: Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer on: January 04, 2014, 06:08:19 PM
seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Value is all relative, but use money to count value will generate some stickiness. I guess just like mining, eventually everything's price will be decided by the electricity and time used

Sickness doesn't have to be generated, it is the natural state of the universe, some choices can mitigate it, but none can ever eliminate it.

Value to an individual is relative sure, of course. But by pricing those relative valuations with a common unit of account it becomes possible to gain an understanding of what sorts of trade offs in the deployment of scarce resources maximize utility for those individuals as per their own relative valuations.
4107  Economy / Economics / Re: Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer on: January 04, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.
4108  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 04, 2014, 06:14:15 AM
If anyone would like to help critique/proof-read a paper i wrote on nxt for a guest post for a blog please pm me! I'm really bad a knowing where commas go so I could really use some help.

Ive done some heave edits to mine, and have been in contact with bitcoinmagazine.  Got all set up with gravatar/trello/googledocs/etc and trying to work with them on getting mine published

you sound very qualified to give me some feedback on my paper. if you were interested in doing that i would be appreciative.

sure IM me your google docs link

Sent PM.
4109  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 04, 2014, 05:57:42 AM
If anyone would like to help critique/proof-read a paper i wrote on nxt for a guest post for a blog please pm me! I'm really bad a knowing where commas go so I could really use some help.

Ive done some heave edits to mine, and have been in contact with bitcoinmagazine.  Got all set up with gravatar/trello/googledocs/etc and trying to work with them on getting mine published

you sound very qualified to give me some feedback on my paper. if you were interested in doing that i would be appreciative.
4110  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Anon136's NXT Giveaway Thread (weighted by forum notoriety) on: January 04, 2014, 05:30:46 AM
Busy with some stuff atm but i haven't forgotten about you guys. will definitely get NXT sent out by some time tomorrow at the latest.
4111  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 04, 2014, 05:25:35 AM
Wow last time I read this thread I was contemplating sending one BTC...and then I forgot about it.  And now I see this thread and realize I made a $3 million mistake.  Wow...I feel sick to my stomach.

dont feel too bad, there is no where NEAR enough liquidity for you to realize even a fraction of that 3 million dollar profit. With a little luck and some slick marketing you may have realized $100,000
4112  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 04, 2014, 04:48:44 AM
If anyone would like to help critique/proof-read a paper i wrote on nxt for a guest post for a blog please pm me! I'm really bad a knowing where commas go so I could really use some help.
4113  Economy / Economics / Re: Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer on: January 04, 2014, 01:36:19 AM
seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Yeah it has that he calls it Q

"Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul

Quote
True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".

 I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q.
This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".

Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."

Thus,  ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.

Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.

Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.

This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.

It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.

The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.

 By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind.

"been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul

Quote
That is precisely what I have been working towards.
 



Ok so what makes Q immune from the same criticisms he leveled against gold and bitcoin early on in the presentation?
4114  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 04, 2014, 12:11:06 AM

For those of us that are new.... I just set up my first NXT account today.  What happened with DGEX exactly?  Are they an untrustworthy exchange now?

Not so much untrustworthy, but they introduced fees very suddenly today with (afaik) no warning at all.
Been trading since the start without fees (except on fast withdrawal) but are now charging for trades and all withdrawals.

Fair enough, they gotta make money, but the timing could have been a lot better and it came as a big surprise to a lot of people, including me.

its a very good thing that they are doing this. it will discourage whales from trading back and forth with each other inorder to manufacture price.
4115  Economy / Economics / Re: Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer on: January 03, 2014, 11:56:11 PM
seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.
4116  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Nxt source code flaw reports on: January 03, 2014, 10:36:02 PM
I normally don't call people trolls, but:

1) It is clear you have not been following anything related to NXT. Injected flaws (in an otherwise working base code) with bounty payouts is meant to encourage people to take a very hard look a the code. Also, read the 1st post again, c-f-b explained this.
2) Bashing how "clean" the code looks. Really? If you're so good at this, why didn't you come up with a better NXT first? It's probably because you can't (hence you have to fork NXT's code... how ironic).

So your are admiting that this indeed is not the 'real source code' but some variant of it that doesn't really work.

I thought the purpose of releasing source code is to have other people to review if it is correct.

Well... I may just create a much better NXT.   Something that

(1) Has a very clear specification of the distributed consensus algorithm that people can review for flaws.
(2) Follow best practice Java coding standards.
(3) Gone through extensive static code analysis.
(4) Have a battery of unit tests to exhaustive test out the code.
(5) Ensure that tests perform 100% test coverage.

but unfortunately none of that exists for NXT.   It is just a high school project that some folks invested 21 BTC to get a stake on it.



yes please do! that would be wonderful! the more competition the better. i would definitely get behind this and even throw some money at it.
4117  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 03, 2014, 06:06:37 PM
is code published yet? if so where? if not do we know what time today?
4118  Economy / Speculation / Re: I AM HODLING on: January 03, 2014, 08:09:35 AM
So.. when is the hodlcoin ready to mine? Huh

You don't mine hodlcoin. It's pure proof of stake. Read more about it here. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619
4119  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Nxt :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information on: January 03, 2014, 03:02:56 AM
What's the best way to acquire Nxt?

trading thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345336.0 with me as escrow Grin
4120  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Marketplace (Altcoins) / Re: Trading Thread for Nxt :: Descendant of Bitcoin on: January 03, 2014, 12:45:53 AM
Done selling nxt for now but if anyone is interested I would be happy to provide escrow. Here is announcement thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=396515 Rate is 0.9%, 0.01BTC min. PM me!
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