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4121  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 07, 2013, 01:41:55 AM
If ancaps arent utopian, anarchists arent either. An ideal world is a stateless world. capitalism and communism are impossible in a stateless world.
Capitalism (private ownership of the means of production, voluntary trade of products and services - including those privately-owned means of production) works just fine in a stateless world.
On communism.
Marx also expected communism to result in a stateless world, and the withering away of the state, as people worked toward a common good without coercion, and that the state would disappear out of obsolescence, yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state
Seems naive today, but that was his idea.
4122  Economy / Speculation / Re: Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin? on: June 06, 2013, 06:26:01 PM
"Money laundering is the process of concealing illicit sources of money." -Wikipedia
"money laundering (concealing the source of illegally gotten money)" -Princeton WordNet
So, if I'm concealing the source of legally gotten money everything should be okay?!

Then the presumption is that at least some of it is ill-gotten, and it may be up to the defendant to show otherwise if there is probable cause for indictment and some evidence against them.
4123  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Filed a request for an administrative ruling with FinCEN this morning. on: June 06, 2013, 06:19:55 PM
I wonder if my kid would get in trouble if he traded his World of Warcraft gold through an intermediary so that he could move his character from one server to another.
4124  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: [SOCAL] Southern California Meetups on: June 06, 2013, 06:00:22 PM
I'm considering organizing a mid July meetup in the Venice beach area.  If anyone has interest or feedback please let me know.  Smiley

Do it, and those that can come, will.
4125  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: June 05, 2013, 11:20:58 PM
There is quite a bit reclaimed gold as well from industrial uses.
Those old computer components have a bit here and there.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-lbs-5-oz-of-computer-scrap-for-gold-recovery-/300915675630

I suppose a pure utilitarian philosopher could suggest that the only values that exist are use values and that nothing is intrinsic, but those folks are pretty rare these days.
4126  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 05, 2013, 11:10:34 PM
Capital withheld from those that might use it is sensible in the absence of mutual agreement.
I am happy to provide capital to those that use it well for our mutual benefit, and for some meaningful benefit for others.  
I am not so happy when forced to yield it to others by threat.  
This unhappiness is coupled with a sadness in the notion that what I have built is likely to be unappreciated by those that have taken it from me.  
4127  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: [SOCAL] Southern California Meetups on: June 05, 2013, 08:29:33 PM
FYI, there is a meetup planned for Wednesday, June 5th in Downtown Los Angeles.  Info here:
http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Bitcoin/events/120561162/

Bump, as that is today!

Today, Downtown LA?
Do you know if the location has WiFi?  I know they have beer.
4128  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Buying Bitcoins by paypal - amounts 0.005 - 0.01 - 0.05 - 0.1 or 0.3 -market $$$ on: June 05, 2013, 04:27:27 PM
You missed the point, doesn't matter whether you go first or not, Paypal is broken for trust free anonymous transactions for a virtual currency that violates its terms of service... 
If you really want to trade, you need to offer something folks will be likely to accept.

Otherwise you risk being seen as someone that scams newbies.

That is true

Im sorry I can't offer any insurance I can only offer a little bit more than market value because you getting paypal

Consider the alternative I mentioned.

1) You deposit money into someone's bank account.
2) They send you bitcoin.
or reverse the order if you like, or use escrow.

For such a small transaction, you might also easily find someone who has built some trust so that you will feel ok to trade with them.
Offering paypal is not much of an offer.

Someone claimed on another thread that you can give "gifts" on paypal that are not reversible.  I don't know how that works, but that might be more trustworthy if you can do that.
4129  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 05, 2013, 04:07:25 PM
I really wish I hadn't got into this right now! I'm out of time.

Uuhhh, out of time! Yes, you see the difference to the communities in the rainforests? They have plenty of time, because they are not busy! Grin


They still have to do stuff and cannot be two places at one time. They may not be busy, but they are not magical.

Yes, though certainly Zarathustra was jesting, I suspect the day is just as long for them as it is for us. Smiley
On the broader point, being less busy/productive/active does not seem as much a virtue as might be their own happiness. 
For my own happiness, I enjoy doing things and not being idle so Biomech's activity is more attractive than the unbusy foresters, though I respect their choice and the choice of any that would join them in that unbusiness.
4130  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 05, 2013, 01:45:53 PM
Noted.

I am looking at it from the agorist viewpoint. Anything that is difficult for the government to control, yet popular, draws a lot of their resources. Something as difficult as Bitcoin, should it go mainstream, will tie their regulators in knots for decades. Anything that clogs the system is good for those who want it to fail. Exploit the bastards any chance you get. I'm even strategically in favor of using their various welfare programs (though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth) as a means of guerilla market strategy. ANYTHING that clogs their system up.
 

No such grandiose goals here.  Such a massive failure is not an experience I would much enjoy.  I take my cue on that from those who have been through the USSR dissolution.  Perhaps I'm too optimistic as I'd rather hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

But that (USSR) is basically because people had become so dependent on the state.  Which btw, is what is starting to happen in the West.   It's a scary pattern.  More and more people becoming dependent on the state until the state buckles under the weight, then you have all these helpless people with no-one to look after them.

That's why we are saying now, let's start preparing for the end of the state NOW.  If we can reduce as many people's dependence on it as possible then when it gets to the point where it is ultimately dissolved, hopefully there won't be too many helpless people and there'll be enough free market independent people and capital that we won't have a great disaster.

It's time to put an end to these risky situations where you have a state which encourages dependence on it and then eventually collapses leading to all kinds of calamity.  The way to get out of this cycle is to work towards the end of the state as a concept.

It appears we are in agreement on most things, however I might diverge with you (and Zarathustra, and probably lots of others here) on what might not be an insignificant point.

IF bitcoin achieves a notable measure of success... then by the mechanism you describe above (reducing dependence, et al) we may also serve to AVOID the collapse of the state by lessening its burden, not just prepare for it.  For myself, that would be a very acceptable outcome, and even preferable.  I don't carry any ideal political agenda of what makes for a perfect society, but I would be very happy to discover myself living in a better one, and Bitcoin is hopefully one very small step toward effecting that.  By increasing personal liberty, entering the marketplace of monetary choice with a viable offering suitable for our new world, and by playing well with others.

So by succeeding with Bitcoin, we are not (necessarily) deconstructing the state, but perhaps increasing the resilience of our society and its economy, which may have the effect of saving the state as much as deconstructing it (for example, by allowing it find a more manageable size).  Whether this happens or not is far outside the scope of influence we are likely to have, but either way, Bitcoin provides many social goods.

Consider the example of the USA, it tends to become more like the things that challenge it.  When Communism is its big threat, it adopts more communism; when terrorism is the threat, it adopts more terrorism.  So if personal liberty is ever perceived as such a threat, perhaps it will simply adopt more liberty?  We can not predict the outcome, but our influence on it seems very positive.

Zarathustra does appear to have a point: that society is influenced by many factors, not just its money.  From someone on the sidelines, a little less labeling of people into broad categories might help that one find what is sought.
4131  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Buying Bitcoins by paypal - amounts 0.005 - 0.01 - 0.05 - 0.1 or 0.3 -market $$$ on: June 05, 2013, 05:40:16 AM
You missed the point, doesn't matter whether you go first or not, Paypal is broken for trust free anonymous transactions for a virtual currency that violates its terms of service... 
If you really want to trade, you need to offer something folks will be likely to accept.

Otherwise you risk being seen as someone that scams newbies.
4132  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Buying Bitcoins by paypal - amounts 0.005 - 0.01 - 0.05 - 0.1 or 0.3 -market $$$ on: June 05, 2013, 05:27:01 AM
Sorry man, but I doubt anyone will be willing to do this.  Too much likelihood of a scam.

Lol , I can go first

Even though the amount is close to zero, Paypal is reversible, so folks will be concerned that even if you go first by a week, and then they send the non-reversible Bitcoins that as soon as you  receive them you can reverse the Paypal payment, especially if you are anonymous and have no risk.

However, if you want to deposit your money in someone's bank account rather than through Paypal, they might be more inclined to send you Bitcoins. 
4133  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: June 05, 2013, 04:41:20 AM
Quote
Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited.  That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access.  That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction.  That has intrinsic value.

Those properties could be said of some now defunct cryptocurrencies too.

Or I could invent some digital bits that have those properties too. There is an infinite supply of those bits and encoding schemes, hence that does not add intrinsic value outside of a store-value ledger.

Those defunct cryptocurrencies had intrinsic value as well.  If you are wondering why bitcoins have more value than other cryptocurrencies well that is a different question.

Perhaps distinguishing between utility value and intrinsic value might serve us. 
Can any software have value that is intrinsic or must all its value be use based?
For value to be intrinsic, it ought come from the thing itself.
4134  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 05, 2013, 04:25:32 AM
Noted.

I am looking at it from the agorist viewpoint. Anything that is difficult for the government to control, yet popular, draws a lot of their resources. Something as difficult as Bitcoin, should it go mainstream, will tie their regulators in knots for decades. Anything that clogs the system is good for those who want it to fail. Exploit the bastards any chance you get. I'm even strategically in favor of using their various welfare programs (though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth) as a means of guerilla market strategy. ANYTHING that clogs their system up.
 

No such grandiose goals here.  Such a massive failure is not an experience I would much enjoy.  I take my cue on that from those who have been through the USSR dissolution.  Perhaps I'm too optimistic as I'd rather hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
4135  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 05, 2013, 04:04:55 AM

Generally collectivist refers to those who view everything as common property. Your view above, cooperation, is more along the lines of voluntaryism. Other than that I largely agree with your conclusions here.

Except one thing. The decentralized nature of Bitcoin is potentially subversive, simply because it is nearly impossible to be centrally controlled.

Thank you for sharing your understanding of these terms.  I would be more likely to use the word "communist", or "socialist" society to describe common property social systems, and to use "collectivist" to refer to group decision making and social cohesion irrespective of property rights, though I respect that collectivism may engender the former (or not).  For example, I would view Japan (especially the older generation) a collectivist but not communist and only somewhat socialist society.

My view of Bitcoin is also more like a group of philosophically and technically savvy vanguard taking steps to provide a more resilient alternative for commercial interactions more suitable to the digital age.  It does not seem any more overtly political than something like twitter or Facebook, which could certainly be used for subversive activities but are by no means dedicated toward it beyond the individual actions of those that employ the technology, so I agree that it has that potential.
4136  Other / Politics & Society / Re: If Anarchy can work, how come there are no historical records of it working? on: June 04, 2013, 10:48:17 PM
I am looking for anarchists in this forum. But I met hero collectivists who are enthusiastic to interact and doing business with unknown people in the globalized hypercollectiv. As for me, I view Bitcoin as a subversive tool to end the state and with it the economy (homo oeconomicus). As soon as the mission is accomplished, Bitcoin will be obsolet.


Are anarchism and collectivism exclusive?
My understanding of collectivism is simply that people work together, depend on each other, help each other, trade, interact, cooperate, etc.
My understanding of anarchy is that there is no use for a perpetual governing body.
Not that I see myself as any of these -isms, so I welcome learning if your understandings of these terms are different.  It seems there may be many definitions of the labels you are using.

I don't know that Bitcoin is in any way subversive in and of itself.   It seems more of a backstop that provides economic resilience in case of the failure of that which all too-big-to-fail failures are aggregated, fiat currencies.  Getting it to a point of full utility in advance of any such failure is a collectivist endeavor by its very nature so perhaps it would be surprising to find non-collectivist subversives in abundance in this forum, would it not?

More likely I imagine that the mission you maintain as your own (ending economies) will not ever be complete, and thus Bitcoin will not become obsoleted, but I can't see tomorrow, much less such a distant future.  It would seem a de-evolution to stop collecting ourselves into cooperative groups, but to each their own.
4137  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Why are people so eager to pay tax? on: June 04, 2013, 06:51:54 PM
there is no tax or regulations yet! think "embryonic currency"

some people are saying they have made a profit from selling coin and so they paid the appropriate tax as income

what they obviously don't realize is that there is no regulatory/legal requirement to do so as yet


Yes there is - it's pretty clear cut that if you make a profit in fiat then you become liable for tax, all disagreement with tax law to the contrary.


+1.

If you deal in Bitcoins entirely for purchases of goods or services then you never touch fiat and hence aren't liable for taxes.

Especially if the transaction is P2P or in person. No paper trail.

Not having a reporting requirement category, does not mean there is no tax liability. but... 
The people in this forum are likely in every different tax situation imaginable.  So...
Don't take advice from this forum, get it from your accountant/lawyer who understands your situation and jurisdiction.
4138  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Filed a request for an administrative ruling with FinCEN this morning. on: June 04, 2013, 06:42:25 PM
I will be looking forward to what they have to say. This could either be very good, or very bad.

There are challenges with reasonableness and enforceability, if FINcen can't manage both, they will need to keep working on refining the rule.  Thank you for providing them some guidance on their guidance.  Helping them figure this out with some sense of sanity is a work of heroism, which is going to keep accounts open and businesses operating.
4139  Economy / Economics / Re: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin on: June 04, 2013, 06:34:02 PM
Bitcoins have value, but it is a USE value determined by market forces; he is correct in asserting that the value of bitcoin is NOT intrinsic since the digital substance of the blockchains has no other use than as a medium of exchange and store of value. Were bitcoin to cease being used as money it would have no INTRINSIC value outside of this function, and in this respect it differs from gold and silver which do have substantial intrinsic value.


The vast majority of the valuations of gold and silver is from their usefulness as a store of value (this is the only monetary aspect they do well).  Consumptive uses are a very small percentage of their value.  However, talking about how the value of something changes if it magically losses it's moneyness seems kind of pointless.  By what mechanism would Bitcoin suddenly no longer be money?

Suddenly?
1) Cryptography shown to be vulnerable.
2) Technical innovation by bitcoin haters.

Less Sudden
3) persistent 51% attacks
4) Persistent legal attacks with cooperation of network providers.

Fairly slowly
5) People decide that it is more trouble than its worth.
6) Something we haven't thought of yet.

Personally, I think these are not highly likely but still they are a greater than zero chance.
Much depends on the growth of legitimate use, which is why, like Amagi, am backing the Bitcoins with precious metals, gold and silver. 
Physical may always be better for physical transactions, CryptoCurrency has the clear advantage for online transactions.
4140  Economy / Speculation / Re: Nothing to do with Bitcoin, everything to do with Bitcoin on: June 04, 2013, 04:01:56 PM
They heard it was an Internet currency that did go up and down in value. Usual stuff.

For wanting some... not a chance. Or at least not before it's easier to get AND use than an email client (already configured).

Blockchain.info is pretty easy.
I think the bigger problem is the network effect. 
If there is no one asking for your email address you don't really need one.

When people start losing sales because they don't have a bitcoin address, that will be the tipping point.
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