... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it? Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund...  soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here..  The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it. The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing. I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation. If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it. |
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haha. I see disappointment in someones future. |
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Guys do I need to be AML verified to withdraw BTC @ gox ?
Does AML verification @ Gox only apply to fiat deposit & withdrawals or to bitcoins as well.
I had to verify a year ago just to get my BTC. |
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I need this thing for my parents as soon as possible, cause I clean out viruses from their system pretty much every other month!
They can still store the bitcoins on an offline PC, use it to for tx signing, and use the online PC for broadcasting the transactions. Not sure of serious |
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Private currency it is I think. Switzerland is going the same way, albeit "foreign currency" classification. Bullish overall i'd say.
That's probably quite a difference (foreign vs. private). No VAT problems with foreign currency. |
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1)
Nachdem ich mich jetzt hier durch den Thread gewühlt habe, muss ich offenbar jeden Verkauf innerhalb 2013 betrachten, und wenn er gegenüber vorherigen Käufen einen Gewinn bringt, muss dieser versteuert werden, abziehen dürfte ich lediglich noch Gebühren. Dann könnte doch folgendes passieren (der Einfachheit halber ohne Gebühren):
- am Jahresanfang kaufe ich 10 Bitcoins für 2000 €
- durch geschicktes Trading verkaufe ich immer bei hohem Kurs und kaufe bei niedrigem Kurs erneut ein
- am Jahresende verkaufe ich so viele Bitcoins, dass ich die ursprünglichen 2000 € wieder zurückerhalten habe, ich besitze aber nun immerhin noch 5 Bitcoins
- stelle ich jetzt die summierten Verkaufserlöse den summierten Einkaufskosten gegenüber, so habe ich einen "Gewinn" und zahle dafür Steuern
- in 2014 wird wider Erwarten ein Grundsätzlicher Fehler im Bitcoin-P2P-System gefunden, das System bricht zusammen, Bitcoins sind komplett unverkäuflich
Jetzt hätte ich also 2013 Steuern für Gewinne gezahlt, die ich letztendlich nicht in der Form von € besitze. Ich wäre aus Euro-Sicht jetzt immerhin auf 0, nur wegen der Steuern bin ich aber sogar im Minus.
In Nebensätzen wurde hier nun öfter erwähnt, dass man sich in einem solchen Fall im Folgejahr etwas zurückholen kann, das wurde aber nie vertieft wie das ablaufen würde und ich konnte auch keine Bedingungen rauslesen, an die das geknüpft ist. Z.B.: geht das immer, oder geht das nur dann, wenn ich für 2014 wieder Gewinne habe, gegen die ich das aufrechnen kann? Und muss ich die Verluste dafür auch realisiert haben? Das hieße ja, mir muss jemand alle Bitcoins wenigstens noch für 1 Eurocent abkaufen. Was aber wenn das System komplett zusammengebrochen ist und meine Coins praktisch "verpufft" sind?
Du kannst einen sogenannten "Verlustrücktrag" machen. Oder einen Verlust-Vortrag in's nächste Jahr. Die Details kenne ich auch nicht, eine Bedingung ist aber, daß es dieselbe Einkommensart sein muss (soweit ich weiss). Das ist aber ja dann der Fall. Du musst allerdings deine Wertlosen coins irgendwie verkaufen, um den Verlust zu realisieren. Ob du einfach behaupten kannst der Marktwert sei jetzt 0 und das als Verkauf werten, weiss ich nicht. Egal: ich kauf dir die Dinger ab für 0€ :-) 2) Wie sieht es mit der hier gemachten Aussage des Anwalts aus, dass die Buchführung nicht in einer Software gemacht werden sollte, die ein nachträgliches Editieren von Buchungen ermöglicht, oder dass gleich man auch mit Papier und Stift und Seitennummerierung arbeiten sollte? Aus meiner sicht blödsinn wenn ich als Grundlage der elektronischen Buchhaltung die Nachweisbaren "Kontoauszüge" von den Exchanges nehme. Da kann ich auch nix manipulieren. Das sind die Belege, die kann sich zumindest ein Richter notfalls von mtgox besorgen und gegen meine prüfen. Darauf ist in diesem Thread noch niemand eingegangen und ich frage mich, ob ich mir jetzt wirklich ein Buch besorgen soll, in das ich handschriftlich alles eintrage? Und dann soll man zu allem Belege beifügen. Was denn, einen Screenshot vom Transaktionsverlauf auf bitcoin.de oder Mt.Gox?
Ich halte es auch für ziemlich unwahrscheinlich, dass deutsche Behörden bei einer japanischen Firma irgendetwas verbindlich einfordern können. Es gibt damit für das FA praktisch keine Nachprüfbarkeit. Fälschungssicherheit auch nicht, den CSV-Export von Gox schreibe ich mir einfach selbst und Screenshots mit gefälschtem Transaktionsverlauf sind auch schnell gemalt.
In den vorgeschlagenen "Kalender" kann ich auch reinschreiben was ich will. Du bist verpflichtet deine Sachen wahrheitsgemäß und vollständig anzugeben. Dokumentenfälschung oder Steuerhinterziehung sind nicht zu empfehlen. |
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I just had another thought (or way to look at my eth investment decision personally): If my assumption (argued 3 posts above) that IPO price will be "exactly right" holds, it doesn't matter from my individual perspective wether I invest in the IPO phase or buy ETH on the market right after it ends. The only difference this makes is where my invested BTC go. In the former case they go to the ethereum development fund, in the latter they go to a genesis investor. So if some people here are envious toward the founders getting control over too much money, they can just buy ETH on the market after the ipo instead of investing during the ipo phase. I'm guessing I'll do a little bit of everything regarding investing into ethereum: - invest in ipo phase
- buy on market after ipo phase
- mine
side-note: This is not your average alt-coin and everything I looked at and thought about regarding ethereum so far is well thought-through. This thing is filled with innovation and I think it can provide an exceedingly fertile ground for further innovation and positive change in our world. |
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In the context of the entire post, it is very relevant. With him being so young it means this project can't have been in development for long, especially not long enough to warrant becoming an overnight millionaire without giving anyone an opportunity to see his work in action.
This contains many factual errors: - He's not doing this alone.
- He's not getting the initial investors BTC
- Everyone can take a long long look at ethereum and observe it in action before investing
also: - his age is irrelevant
- your childish display of misguided envy is sickening
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Founders get both the IPO BTC and a big chunk of the Ether available at launch. While I do feel the need to pay devs for their work, this is a ridiculous amount of money we are talking about.
This 19 year old kid will be an overnight millionaire, and that's before we even get to see this entire system in action. Why be greedy about it?
As far as I know, the BTC will be put into a pool and used to fund development and other things. Yes, it will fund a salary for the current crew. If you don't think that's ok, don't invest. That 19 year old kid has done a shitload of good for cryptocurrency already and he deserves to live a wealthy and free life, even if he'd stop his support right now, just for what he has done so far. As for seeing the entire system in action: You can download the sources now, run a testnet node and see the system in action. There will be plenty of time to do so before people have to make their investment decision. |
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Yeah this IPO is ridiculous. Founders.....why so high??  I think you're thinking about this the wrong way (or interpreting the 1.2 trillion in a wrong way). It doesn't matter if the IPO price is 1 BTC or 0.0001 BTC or one satoshi. The IPO price per unit does not matter at all and the "projected supply of 1.2 trillion" you are using to estimate wether or not that price is too high or too low implicitly contains that initial price: If the price was 1 BTC / ether initially the "1.2 trillion 'cap'" would be 120 Million instead. It doesn't make sense at all to argue about the initial price. The only variable that could be "too high" or "too low" is the amount of BTC investors invest initially. Since this variable is determined by the collective opinion of the the same people that will henceforth trade ETH, it will be chosen "exactly right". This is the main difference (in my mind) compared to the NXT issuance model. With NXT the amount of coins was fixed and the price got implicitly decided by the amount of BTC people put in. With ETH the price is fixed, but the amount that will be issued is not. (also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo) I'm not sure which assumptions are used to arrive at 1.2 trillion. Let's make another calculation:Investors put in 25,000 BTC, so x = 25,000 / 0.0001 = 250 Million ether. Henceforth 0.5x = 125 Million ether will be mined each year, so after ~50 years, we're looking at 6.25 Billion ether. We're looking at 12.5 Billion ether in the long run (~100+ years) assuming 1% annual loss due to carelessness, death, etc... What does matter is the amount of BTC investors put in initially. This sets an initial "market cap of ether expressed in BTC" with an arbitrarily chosen initial price of 0.0001 BTC/ether. This market cap reflects what "the market" thinks about ethereum value at that point in time. After that I'm guessing mining and trading will start. Assuming that it's possible to invest exactly up to the point when mining/trading starts, the price of 0.0001 BTC/ether should be exactly what the market thinks the price should be at that time. After that point (assuming a well-functioning exchange) it should adjust according to peoples changes in valuation of ethereum. There shouldn't be any "shooting up" or "crashing down" of BTC/ETH.tell me if I'm wrong. |
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The maximum number of coins is also irrelevant (aside from technical reasons), particularly as mining output scales linearily with the amount of the initial stake. Does it matter if bitcoin has 21,000,000 or 21,000,000,000 coins, if everything is scaled up similarily?
this. Mining output is 0.5x (x = number of ethers bought initially) per year. Linear inflation. There's no cap, so where is the 1.2 trillion coming from? I think it's probably based on some assumptions (mainly a certain "x" and a certain percentage of coin loss?) |
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The buy in will be in the millions and the expected market cap is in the billions.
Charles could you answer the following question? Who will receive the Bitcoins the fundraisers spent to buy Ether? The founders? The organisation? Will they be locked/destroyed? I assume the founders and/or organisation, but I guess it would be good to clearify that part, just to be transparent. Another option could be to spend it to a group of NGOs (Wikileaks, EEF, ...). Already answered: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412878.msg4502149#msg4502149Sorry did not find any clear answer there. Did you referred to that statemnet from Charles? "We took this a step further and came up with some innovations in the trust model we think that the community will like. I won't spoil it yet" Just to be clear. I did not ask for the issuance model, that is clear to me. I was just wondering who exactly will receive the BTC I will spend to buy fundraising Ether. +1. Question not answered anywhere I can find. Do the founders get 0.25X Ether plus the bitcoins? So... is this question answered now? Can't find it. |
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There are some advantages to the latter. For example, I don't have to force users to use expensive shipping options to keep a grip on unfunded coins making it into the wild. If self-fund coins get lost, the loss is limited to the physical coins that got lost, and not any BTC.
This is a true advantage. Insurance cost (and risk, insurance only pay value at time of sending, loss however is admitted only 3 months after that) is getting ridiculously high as of late. |
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coins are flying out the door...
stock: 16
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Hab nichts über die Möglichkeit von Viren in der Blockchain gefunden.
Könnte eventuell möglich sein die Biester da drin ein zu schleußen. Ein offizielles Kommentar dazu wäre gut.
Jep, wäre möglich. Allerdings wie ich's verstanden habe, müsstest du deinen Viren mit Geld (ether) ausstatten, damit die was machen können. Ist also nicht sinnvoll. |
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is there any coins left?
look for resellers (hint: my sig) I recommend molecular's service! Very fast delivery and great guy(s) to do business with! We don't ship to the US any more though. For US customers, I recommend Nightowlace. |
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is there any coins left?
look for resellers (hint: my sig) |
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ok who lit up a choochoo?
I sold a little. This always happens after. never sodl! Unfortunately can't pay credit card bills with bitcoins yet  I feel your pain. We have a pretty big payment due in a couple weeks thanks to Christmas gifts and various other things. Sigh. It looks like we will have to part with a coin. Why is that so hard to do!?  It is the unique psychology of saving, being able to save in a money that is expected to hold or increase in value, something the likes of which we haven't seen for at least a generation due to fiat monetary madness. Has anyone noticed the tendency or even urge of small children (starting at a pretty early age) to collect things, put them in a box or just a place and then defend that property by all means necessary? I think this "psychology of saving" is rooted pretty deeply in humans (maybe other living things, also). |
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lolwoot ... once i get this thing I will shitload at least 1 BTC onto it and carry it withme ..
If I'd like to safely store BTC longterm I still use paper
Same here. I'll make it my main wallet for everyday use. Long term is very cold storage. |
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Jesus Christ; you really got me there for a sec... BTW: you may have missed this: Aside from the trollbox this thread is, it gives me great pleasure reading the comments of (generally) VERY smart people. Sanity is what one should have when he/she deals wirh btc. Sanity to keep his/her nerve when everybody is selling and/or buying. There always was and there always will be reasons for people to buy or sell bitcoins.
Remember only this:
You're here either by investigating or by early information. In both cases you're here by CHOICE; and a rather bold one.
Chances are most of the people in this thread won't be here after a couple of years. I present here some reasons about it:
1. Every person has a price in life. There's a certain figure that you would give up your coins for a totally different way of living. Don't get me wrong; this is normal. It's done when we reached $266. It's done when we reached $1242. It will happen again on the next ATH. You might be among the ones that got the decision.
2. The BTC is regulated heavily (see China but imagine x1000) and people are forcibly moving out of the boat while it's sinking. This is unlikely but there's a possibility (as big as a HUGE meteor hits earth in the next 24hrs and vanishing everyone among us from its surface).
3. Due to extreme FUD you're forced to get out. This is the most unfortunate scenario and you REALLY don't want to be in this position within the next months.
There will be fire ladies and gents. In the next few months bitcoin will be HUGE! Imagine exponential stuff. The news is out there but we just didn't see them in front of our eyes yet. I know you may have cold feet now but you will be in the warm side of the fireplace when it gets hotter.
PS:
Don't forget to HODL!!!!1
I indeed missed that post (it's impossible for me and also pretty stupid to read everything here). Thanks for reposting |
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