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4361  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 06:28:48 PM
I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

He has a point. It is simply taboo to root for reduced government power in France. The first reaction people have to any kind of issue is "what is the government doing about it?"

That's not terribly different than 90% Americans today.

I had a much different impression. The Tea Party push during last elections was big enough that every French channel talk about it at least once. Compared to this, the most extreme rightist French economists could be considered communists.
4362  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 05:55:51 PM
I said, in general.  There are statist Americans and there are classicly liberal Europeans.  In the present state of things, however, Europeans tend to trust their governments.  That's just the cycle of things.  60 years ago Americans tended to have the trust of government intentions and Europeans didn't.  This is reasonable considering that the US had just recently won a World War that was started by European governments screwing with each other.

He has a point. It is simply taboo to root for reduced government power in France. The first reaction people have to any kind of issue is "what is the government doing about it?"
4363  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin concept is groundless TECHNICALLY..this article says..Can anyone defend? on: May 18, 2011, 05:53:08 PM
The deflation argument needs to be attacked.  It's so widespread, people are so scared of it.  The really question we need to ask is "so?"  And see why people actually think its bad.  The problem is most people think of wealth as currency.  Wealth is not currency.  Wealth is goods and services that people value.  Currency is only something that people redeem for such things.  If people are not buying something, then they are leaving it available to be purchased by someone else for cheaper.  Or they are investing which means that they are delaying their redeeming it for a later time when more should be available (after the investment actually increases the economy).  Investment is a great thing and should be encouraged.  A deflationary currency will encourage sound investments.

It's a tough one to get at. People are culturally used to debt based economies, which would suffer horribly from deflation. There's just no way around it, some people won't admit to it until Bitcoins are worth $1000, and even then some will oppose it. You should have noticed that most of the hate for Bitcoin has poured in since its exponential growth triggered around early April. That's people downtalking the feasibility of the Bitcoin projec after it successfully took its first step. This kind of response is emotional.
4364  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: How should I select a mining pool to join? on: May 18, 2011, 05:44:03 PM
In order from the most to least significant:

1) Pool size: don't join the biggest one. Any pool above 100 Gh/s will have insignificant variances on a daily basis anyways.

2) Fees. The lower the better.

3) Interface and stats. Lots of features to keep in mind in here, like a share counter per worker to tweak your cards or email notifications if your workers go down. Global stats are nice, expected reward is nice to have as well. Graphs are awesome.

4) Lastly, having a score based pool is better than a share based pool because it defends against pool hoppers. This is even more important if your pool is small (less than 10% of the network)

Keep in mind that your reward will be the same on every pool in the long run, minus fee. So the only 2 objective criteria for choosing a pool are it's size (avoiding big pools to prevent network vulnerability) and the fee. The rest is a matter of taste.
4365  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 05:04:35 PM
Getting clearer. Tell me if I'm getting this right, I should set up House A rigs and House B rigs with the same bitcoin.conf and wallet.dat and the credit for example when a block is found would go to the one wallet I setup for both rigs. Just trying to be a solution to this pooled mining problem. =) Thanks!

It's that more or less. The first transaction in a block is the 50BTC reward. To solve the block header you need to create the Merkle root for those transactions, which is unique to you since the address you would be publishing to cash in the 50BTC is unique for each competing miner (unless you're feeling charitable and want to write in my address =P). If you manage to solve the header, then you add the transactions of your choice plus the one that rewards your wallet with the 50BTC, and then it goes on to the network.
4366  Economy / Economics / Re: Using Bitcoin agents for international money transfers on: May 18, 2011, 04:37:17 PM
The fees you are paying are much more insignificant than other countries.  I expect some fee to be eaten up on overhead.  The banks will pay a fee when they exchange on the market, and they will want some money for their trouble as well.  You are paying a 7% fee.  Sure, that's high, but perhaps it's not too crazy.  Obviously Bitcoin would help (but perhaps not for only 7% fee).  For the huge fees mentioned earlier, I'm trying to figure out why they are so high.  If you wanted to recreate the same experience for the USD to EUR wire, the 7% seems in line.  You go somewhere physically and hand them cash.  They wire the money, then your friend picks it up somewhere.  This could be linked direct to bank accounts, but let's focus on this case.

You buy your bitcoins in a store, perhaps using a BitBill or some other service.  Say that's a 3.5% fee (no idea what BitBill charges).  Then you cash out using a local trader who charges a 3.5% fee.  There's your 7%.

If you never have to convert currency then you don't get bit, but same could be said if your friend just sent you $100 and you never needed to convert it.


The 25% fees, that's where i want to know where they are coming from.  That will be the place where Bitcoin could be superior.

I'm already more than satisfied to be able to reduce a 7% fee to 3.5% thanks to Bitcoin. That's ample argument for me.

The 25% sounds outrageous.
4367  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 04:34:45 PM
The goddamn utility bills...

What are you even talking about?

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With Deepbit it would very quickly be noticed if it has been compromised, exactly because of the features I appreciate. You on the other hand could not know, because for all you know it could just be a particularly long round. You're really not very good at making up claims about what I would do.

How? What particular feature of any pool allows you to know fake transactions have been added to the block you help solve? I can't name a single one, no matter the pool. Yet other pools are immune to this fact simply because they don't hold enough hashing power on their own to keep forcing corrupt transactions down the network's throat. Deepbit isn't. Now indulge me, name those features. Educate me with your obviously adequate way.


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It will be impossible not to.
So why won't you deal with it now?

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If you are using a pool you are endangering the network.
You understand this yet you refuse to mitigate the effect? This is getting better by the minute...

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Yet another straw man.
Born from the very stats your pool officially advertises?

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Deepbit doesn't really need because of the high hash rate and 1 hr delay. It would probably be just as profitable and much easier to jump between BTCMine and Slush's pool to take advantage of particularly short rounds.

No. Jumping in score based pools is as close as it gets to charity...
4368  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 04:12:23 PM
actually, yes.. i kinda agree.. force the programmers to find a solution for this issue.. though id prefer they did it before it got used :p

Well, there's the test net for that too
4369  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 04:05:15 PM
In my darkest hour I wished Deepbit would get attacked the chain forked so that they would drop Bitcoin forever after the market crash ensuing...

If bitcoin system is that insecure then make it so. Better now than later.

I agree.
4370  Economy / Economics / Re: Using Bitcoin agents for international money transfers on: May 18, 2011, 04:04:39 PM
What is the reason why the fees are so high in some places?  Are there expensive regulations to adhere to?  Taxes?

Well you have to consider that changing into a local currency can be really expensive. If a friend sends me a bank wire for $100 dollar, ill be getting 65.5 euros instead of 70.5. The Bitcoin would help avoiding that.
4371  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 04:01:30 PM
OCN crowd is difficult to argue with. Use visual aids. Pictures of some insane watercooled rig with words 'I do not use large pools' would do wonders.
Sad We shouldn’t attract such idiots in the first place. They don’t even care about Bitcoin.

In my darkest hour I wished Deepbit would get attacked the chain forked so that they would drop Bitcoin forever after the market crash ensuing...
4372  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: I just ruined 4 5870s...!!! on: May 18, 2011, 04:00:12 PM
How'd u flash the 4 cards at the same time? If you're flashing your control card, you're just asking for it. Now go get yourself a DOS bootable usb with ATi flash and a functional bios.
4373  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 03:56:33 PM
OCN crowd is difficult to argue with. Use visual aids. Pictures of some insane watercooled rig with words 'I do not use large pools' would do wonders.

wisdom!
4374  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 03:39:59 PM
We are not supposed to use deepbit because they have the best worst features?

FTFY

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So guys, if Deepbit is so evil because they have the largest pool for generating unregulated, decentralized currency, could someone recommend a pool where I can make more bitcoins than I am on Deepbit with a 184 Mhash/sec rate?

BTCmine, BTCguild, slush's, Luke's, and all those new comers 0% fee that I see starting recently. The first page in the mining forums is filled with their official threads.
4375  Economy / Economics / Re: How to discourage hoarding - brainstorm on: May 18, 2011, 03:27:33 PM
Walk into a store selling gold. Look at all those outstanding offers. Realize hoarding is a myth.

Have you really tried this? Was this a private store in a rural area? I'd really be curious. I suspect most people would still not know the value of gold. This is slightly dated but I think largely still holds true, here's what happens offering gold to the average American - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAaVK5AkZzI

Do you really think these people would give you *anything* in return for a BTC? Gold suffers from the same problem - how can I really use it to live my daily day-to-day life? Especially since so much of the economic system is setup to discourage alternate currency....

You miss my point. You say hoarding will hurt the economy because it lowers liquidity. So I refer you to gold. Gold is a deflationary store of value. You perception dictates it should be hoarded. Yet buying gold is easy, and widely available. This is a live example that hoarding won't impact liquidity.
4376  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 03:23:36 PM
And if you sell your house and sleep on the street you'll save a lot of money too.

The goddamn fee...

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If Bitcoin goes down it wouldn't be because my measly hash rate was at Deepbit and not another pool.

It would be because of the accumulated hashrate of people like you who swarm one pool and will perpetuate that practice even if the pool has been compromised, all this for no good reason.

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I'll deal with the consequences that concerns me. Demanding that I do something I don't want because you are afraid of losing your benefits is what socialists do.

No you won't deal with the consequences. You know you won't because you're refusing to take a minute right now to switch to another pool, which will benefit you. When shit will hit the fan, you'll just rationalize it away like you are doing now. And I am not demanding anything, I'm beating you're joke of an argument that you use as a basis to stick to Deepbit, disregarding the gapping hole it brings into the network security. I'm simply warning you, because I don't want to see Bitcoin go down. But I have no wish to use force. If the worst has to happen for your kind to understand, then so be it. The burden of responsibility is on your shoulders. I'm not the one endangering the network, you are.

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If you don't even understand that the only important factor in lowering variance is total hash rate there's really no point in discussing it with you.

From Deepbit's stat page
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Average shares per block: 153246 (-2.7%)
Average in last 24 hours: 147860 (-6.5%)

If you can't put it in your head with this that Deepbit has consequent variance, then there's nothing I can do for you. You're the guy thinking he should put all of his hashing power in the same pool while you say that total hash rate impacts variance. Then tell me, Sherlock, is it better to be in one pool that has 50% of the network or 3 pools that have 60%?

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Yeah, I guess I have to be really slow to disagree with your truly brilliant arguments...

You are beyond slow.

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Regarding the fee, you have to include what I just call the sucker fee in the smaller pools. It's the income you loose because some people are pool jumping. If you monitor the hash rate, you'll notice that it will go down on in the rounds that last a long time. All in all I'm probably earning about the same as Deepbit as I would in the other pools. If there is a difference it's neglible and one I accept to pay for the convenience.

Here comes the irony. Score based pools defend against Raulo's attack, Deepbit doesn't. I can't believe you're aware of that attack, yet don't understand the vulnerability nor the counter, all the while willing to stick to a pool that is vulnerable to it and has higher fees. Priceless.
4377  Economy / Economics / Re: How to discourage hoarding - brainstorm on: May 18, 2011, 02:39:38 PM
Walk into a store selling gold. Look at all those outstanding offers. Realize hoarding is a myth.
4378  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 02:34:16 PM
What kind of socialist argument is that? I should sacrifice getting a regular income to make a neglible impact on the security of the network, just for the greater good?

1) You're not sacrificing anything. As a matter of fact, by mining elsewhere, you're increasing your profit.
2) Your own good. If Bitcoins crash due to an attack, you lose money...
3) The goal of mining is to secure the network. The reward is the consequence of that service provided. You want to rip the reward while providing the work but not caring for the service, because you're too lazy to understand what you are contributing to and are motivated by obscure, emotional perception of this network, point of view which has been defeated times and times over. A simple proof is that you are willing to pay the highest fee out there, yet you somehow try to build an argument based on the concept of income.

Mindlessly catering to the biggest group, expecting others to deal with the consequences... who's the socialist again?

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That would increase the variance, because Deepbit is larger than all the other pools combined. It would also be a lot more work to set up and maintain.

No. Even right now Deepbit has variance. Tycho even provides that data on the statistic page. What Deepbit is missing in a day is what other pools are getting as extra. You really want to beat variance? Spread out.

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It would also be a lot more work to set up and maintain.

1) Takes half a minute per worker and you're done, forever.
2) This is EXACTLY why people need to move off of Deepbit, because people like you would still be mining there a week after the pool gets infiltrated and starts being used to attack the network.
4379  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 01:16:58 PM
I am wondering what kind of people make a point of paying higher fees in the process of ripping the same reward...

I would answer your question, but I try not to use derogative terms and reportedly there is at least one lady among us.  Cheesy



xD
4380  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security on: May 18, 2011, 12:16:02 PM
This thread topic is exactly why I never thought that open pools were a good idea.  That said, the ability to create more pools will lead to a proliferation of said pools competing for contributers.  So it's unlikely that any one pool could ever collect the 50% minimum in order to attack the blockchain even for a short while, as the more pools there continue to be, the less of a percentage that each is ever likely to be able to accumulate.
Actually, the reason why I use Deepbit is that all the others I would consider are so small. Size is one of Deepbits biggest competitive advantages, because the whole point of using a pool is to get a regular flow of bitcoins. More pools means that the remaining hashing power is spread even thinner. That just increases Deepbit's advantage.

No. Simply no. Unless you intent to mine for ridiculously short period of times, every pool will provide you with the same payout minus fee in the long run. The reward for mining is to secure the network. To brainlessly jump into the biggest pool because you like the pretty numbers is a mistake, effectively using the very tool that secures the network to harm it. It's like saying human beings need water to survive and then trying to drown the guy.

If your interest is indeed lowering variance, then you should be spreading your mining power evenly among ever possible pool. Also Deepbit is the most expensive pool out there. I am wondering what kind of people make a point of paying higher fees in the process of ripping the same reward...
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