Exactly.



If the requirements are not met, then the original deposit amount is what's made available, but regardless, you are making a valid assessment provided the bettor wagered a portion of their funds towards the bonus.


Depends on the player - if you're willing to accept the odds of clearing 388x for 301%, and view it as such a prospect and thereby wager your own funds, I think it is fair to say that what you're saying is true. If you're going on the chance to make 301% without actually betting anything - which is what most people will do - then I don't agree. It all depends on whether or not you start betting your deposit.

It's a matter of perspective on the prospect of winning. If you're betting your own funds, the EV is lower. The deposit bonus can be zero risk, though, and in most cases is treated as such.

Off the top of me head, I really can't think of anyone that has bet their initial deposit on it - as you say, it's not really meant to be treated that way.

What I take away from this is that there needs to be an option - the no-risk deposit bonus vs. one that has a rollover well worth taking a risk on. 50x, perhaps. If we go with that... let's see:

200.5 * 0.0188 = 3.77

So considering that you'd need to bet 4.01 BTC - and taking 3.01 off the top right away - you'd stand to make about 0.24 BTC. This seems more fair to me, but of course the limit would have to be much lower for the actual deposit bonus than what we have now.

Thoughts?

Well, that's true, but it is calculated a bit differently for bonuses.

For dice, our house edge is 1.88%.

Say you deposit 1 BTC, and you stand to unlock 3.01. The wagering requirement would be 1555.88.

So, to calculate the EV,

1555.88 * 0.0188 = 29.25

Right, so the expected value of the bonus is negative if you were to continue to wager your own funds to unlock the bonus, but the fact of the matter is that the deposit itself is zero-risk.

If you're not happy with the outcomes of the games, then you can just cancel the bonus and play with your regular deposit. From the site:


The fact that it is zero-risk, to me, guarantees that no matter what, unlocking the bonus is a chance with expected (though unlikely) positive results that you take in order to get 301% of your deposit. When I talk about Expected Value in the case of a risk-free bonus, I'm talking about the face value of the unlocked amount. If the bonus had some risk involved, then obviously at these numbers 50-80x would make it more likely, but if you're looking to get 3x of small wagers, then just play the games. We are offering a way to get 3 times the total deposited amount while not taking on any risk - I don't see how this is unfair.

We're not looking to get people to keep depositing their money in order to unlock an unlikely bonus - you can stop at any time, and we don't hide any of the bonus information from anyone.

And we certainly aren't keeping your deposited funds tangled with the bonus amount, that would be ludicrous. We're giving a risk free shot to deposit money, try your luck to get 3x the deposit without taking any risks (unless you choose to).

I fail to see how this is unfair to anyone. The fact that it is extremely unlikely, to most of our players, is irrelevant. They have a fair shot at doing it - just as they have a fair shot at unlocking the no-deposit bonus, and we're not going to force anyone to play through their actual deposited funds.

In the end, even a modest bonus of 2 with a 30x rollover would net you a .1 or so and the possibility of losing all your funds.

Take as much risk as you want - our bonuses give people a fair shot to win without exposing them to excessive risk. Our players happily take the bonus to test the system to check our provably fair system. Some win it big, and some don't, but that is the nature of games of chance.


This is just plainly not the case unless you wager your amount down to zero. Most players will withdraw their funds long before they get to this point. When the prospects are not good, withdrawal is the best option. We do not stop them from doing so if they don't meet the bonus requirements or choose to cancel their bonus.

If you want to deposit and then withdraw to play with the deposit bonus, then that is essentially playing with the no-deposit bonus. So, yes that would cancel the bonus.

Also, the statement should be "We won't ever disallow you from withdrawing any amount of your deposit that you haven't already wagered."

Ah, I forgot you asked for a link to the rules. I assume you found those, though. Just in case,

www.betcoin.tm/blackjack/howtoplay

If you were able to withdraw 4.01 (which you would after unlocking the bonus), that is a 301% increase in your deposit.


You would have 3.01 at the very least after unlocking.

Sorry, we aren't purposefully ignoring you. Some of these rules have been suggested in the past by other players, and we are certainly looking into adding them. However, we have put our current efforts into expanding our game offering to ensure that we have a wider offering. There are dedicated departments and developers for our proprietary games, however, and after the recent comments about the game we are certainly going to put extra effort to provide some TLC for our BlackJack game. If you choose not to play BlackJack on our site because of your rule preferences, then that is fine, but we certainly regret it and hope that you will try it again after we update the game logic.

No one here is trying to ignore anything - the purpose of us having this thread is to address player concerns and you should think us smarter than to try to 'brush something off'. The internet never forgets.

The expected value of unlocking the bonus is the 3.01 BTC. If you were to cash out 4.01 BTC after starting with 1... I am not exactly sure how that is not a positive value.

When you unlock the rollover requirements, the 3 BTC is what you unlock - not your 1 BTC deposit.

Once your account has been aged, you'll get access to instant withdrawals. With the volume of accounts that have been created recently, most users won't have access to this feature yet - however, over time you will. We feel that this not only protects us, but it protects you as well.

Our system "gets to know you", and if anything happens out of the ordinary on your account we can catch it early or reach out to you directly. Yes, we have 2FA and signed messages, but you can never be too careful. While we see that this issue makes a lot of people a bit uneasy (sometimes cashouts can take a while), we believe that in the longrun it is safer for our players. So, for now, we're going to keep this feature.

It's understandable that you don't share our position, we hope that you understand that we believe it is in your best interest.

Winning, in this case, means unlocking the bonus. You get the original bonus amount for unlocking it.

The crux of this for me is that the wagering requirements, in general, of other establishments have to do with actual deposited funds, and with us the bonus amount is included. So the game may seem harder or less likely, but the outcome is better in our case. You don't have to continually deposit funds to unlock your bonus, which creates -EV. Our bonus, however unlikely, has a high +EV for depositors (and non-depositors).

301% return of your deposit on a no-risk deposit bonus is a pretty big jackpot.

If you hit a very big jackpot with bonus funds, you're not playing the game with your own money - the game you are playing is basically the bonus, and you're using the games on the site to unlock it. The bonus is sort of a game on its own that carries zero-to-no risk.

While I see and respect your viewpoint, I don't agree with it.

Already did

What? I said that there have been people that have withdrawn the 888x bonus, and that is twice as hard to unlock. You (probably) won't 'EVER' win the lottery either, but we're giving you the chance to give our system a shot with zero risk and you still might walk out with a sizeable amount of money in your pocket.

Use Chrome of Firefox.

You can use your referral links.

Once we hit 15 we'll do a drawing.

OK I will have to whitelist you, no problem.

Try it now.

The amount available for withdraw after you unlock the bonus is the original bonus amount. We will not ever make your deposit unavailable to withdraw, so in your case the amount to withdraw would be 4.01 BTC.

When you deposit your own money into the bonus and bet you're not wagering the original amount toward the bonus and therefore the bonus is cancelled. Even if the bonus wasn't cancelled the 10 BTC would still be able to be withdrawn because it's your deposit, not bonus funds.

It isn't supposed to be an appealing amount to someone looking for a reliable way to make money, as these are games of chance. We give you a fair shot to unlock the bonus, and however unlikely as it may be (no-deposit bonus as I said is about 1/1000, and match bonus is somewhere in the ballpark of 1/750 - these aren't your odds these are the users that successfully unlock it) you can do it. It's very similar to a lottery ticket. A huge +EV for players at a low to minimal cost, but pretty unlikely. The purpose of these bonuses is to show that our system works and make you comfortable with the system and its functionalities, and it doesn't hurt that the added value comes from the opportunity to win very, very big.

The games are provably fair, the reward is high (but unlikely), and the risk in these types of bonuses (especially the no-deposit bonus) are minimal to none.

That being said, we are working on making our deposit bonus a bit different to give good EV to depositors over time. That's in the pipeline but nowhere near being ready to give any concrete numbers or even speculate as to how it would work.

For you to withdraw any of the winnings you get with the bonus amount, you will need to bet your  deposit + bonus amount times 388x on any of our provably fair games. So if you deposit 1 BTC you'll get a bonus of about 3 BTC, and you'll need to wager 4 * 388 in order to unlock the 3 BTC bonus.

The first-deposit bonus is easier (by a lot) to unlock than the no-deposit bonus. It's still unlikely to unlock, but it's a game in and of itself that carries no risk (as you can withdraw your deposit at any time).

You can also request a match bonus more than once with the same terms.

If the original bonus amount is 2 BTC, and you bet the ¬1100 BTC required to unlock it, then the 2 BTC is available to withdraw, not what remains in your account after meeting the requirement.

I realize you were talking about something else, and that you included several Dice Games, but I'm sort of hard-wired with 1.65%, and I apologize for that. Like I said - there's not wool being pulled over your eyes as that house edge (and the other games) was and is available on the How To Play page the whole time. I didn't say that you were 'supposed' to know there was a consolation prize for Dice, but I just pointed it out because it affects the house edge. I'm not saying you were 'wrong' about anything - just that there was information that could help you calculate it.

It would be useful to have it in text form to make a paper backup, and we will have to consider adding this option. Thanks for the suggestion.