You clearly do not understand the motivations of the vast majority of miners, then.  This may be your way of thinking, but I assure you beyond any shadow of a doubt, most miners are in it to make a profit in USD (or their local currency) not to "increase their purchasing power within the money system itself."  Most miners couldn't give a shit about how much BTC it makes in the end, they just want to know how much USD (or local currency) it makes.

Once again, I challenge you:

Ask an average miner which they'd rather do:

Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 400 BTC, valued at $2 each or
Purchase a widget that costs 10 BTC and will generate 5 BTC, valued at $200 each

Invariably, the answer will be the second option, even though that person could have increased their BTC holdings by 40x!  Very few people want BTC for BTC sake, they want BTC for what value it provides in their local currency.  Again, you may be different, but you are in a very tiny, miniscule minority.

This is a completely disingenuous market that is predicated on completely ludicrous assumptions.  Lets look at a few of them, but this list is by no means comprehensive:

1.  If the bitcoin price had tanked and bitcoins were worth $2 per coin in August, September, October, November, December etc... do you really think there would be as much hashrate on the network right now as there is?  Of course not, so you'd be earning more from your purchase.  So your argument that you've somehow "lost out" on funds because of the delay to the tune of thousands upon thousands is false.
2. Ok, you say, but there is SOME loss because of the delay!  Yes, you're right, for some people there is indeed some loss of potential revenue.  However, what most people, including you apparently, seem to assume when you make your calculations is that you would be the only individual purchasing a unit and everyone else would still be mining on GPUs.  This is a false assumption.  There are many, many people who purchased before you and there are many, many people who have purchased after you (though these are less impactful in the short term, but very impactful in the long term), because of this, the difficulty would ramp up before you get your unit.  The actual loss you may or may not have incurred is far, far less than you want others to believe.  If BFL had shipped in November all of the units we intended to ship, the difficulty would be far higher in January than it is right now, thus your income would actually be less.  Under certain circumstances, depending on what you were mining with in mid 2012 and assuming you kept mining at that point, you actually may have made more money than if we had shipped in November.  None of this makes it right that we missed our target ship date, but the simple fact of the matter is your losses are not measured in the thousands you think they are.
3. Bitcoin price - You paid ~$10 per bitcoin in August 2012. You were unable to predict the price (since if you were, you'd be a multi-billionaire right now), so you elected to purchase mining hardware as a hedge against bitcoin going up.  This let you lock in your price of bitcoins, and if it went down you'd be making back many, many more bitcoins than you spent.  If it went up, you'd make less bitcoins, but you'd make more fiat... that is the whole point of mining hardware.  It locks you in at a bitcoin value and gives you the potential to derive more wealth from the unit than you had previous, be it in BTC or fiat, depending on market trends.

Personally, I'd rather have spend $30,000 in USD to purchase something than $54,000 in BTC, just because it's priced in BTC.  Maybe that's just me, but I find the value of $24,000 USD to be signifigant, whether it's valued in USD or BTC.  Maybe you don't, which is why you think comparing 3000 BTC in August 2012 to 420 BTC in August 2013 to be a logical comparison.  However, I'd wager than the vast, vast majority of people on this forum would rather have someone give them $54,000 in USD than $30,000 in BTC.

None of this even considers the fact that the power consumption of the 120 blades would be 3x that of the minirig.  That the blades are sold out.  That the space required for the blades would be significantly more and we won't discuss the aesthetic aspects because I don't think many people care about that as long as it mines, but there are some people that do care.

So here's the real tally:

Minirig: $30,000, uses less power, takes up less space
Blades: $54,000, uses 3x more power, takes up lots more space

Neither can be purchased off the shelf (as it were) at the moment, so there's your comparison.

Huh, I can't seem to find my quote where I called everyone failures and losers with zero foresight, can you please point that out?  You wouldn't be making things up, would you?

We're talking about 100% accurate predictions, not speculation.  Get it straight and then come back and maybe we can have an adult conversation.  But until then, when you start off with your entire premise being unrelated to the topic your quoting, we might as well not even have the conversation.

Really, so you're claiming that 20 * 13 = 1500?  Wow...

But lets go back to the USD assessment.  The only way your figures work out is if you have 100% prediction ability or you use hindsight, neither of which are considered acceptable investing methodologies. 

Once again, your entire premise is flawed.  If you (or anyone) were so good at predicting the bitcoin price back then, why are you not a multi-billionaire?  If you knew BTC was going to go up, especially as much as it did, why were you not mortgaging the house, selling your mother and pimping out your cats and dogs to buy BTC?  You'd be an @#$%@% idiot not to... yet you didn't, why? 

Hindsight investing is great, except it's a bunch of shit, which is why comparing the price in BTC of anything in August 2012 to something in 2013 is a bunch of shit.

3000 BTC value in August 2012 in USD: $30,000
420 BTC value in August 2013 in USD: $54,600

So buy from ASICminer a year later, spend 46% more for 1/6th the hashing power @ 3x the power consumption!  Sounds like a good deal to me!  Not.

Now forgive me, perhaps my information is wrong, but aren't the Eruptor Blades 13 GH/s each?  If, so, how do you get 1500 GH out of 20 * 13?  

FUD much?

4 @ 5.75

Pretty cool... wish I lived some place close to water!

Excellent, I look forward to your visit.  Please email me (or PM if you prefer) and we will sort out the details of when.  If you want to send the $200, send it to the BitcoinDF donation address.

You are truly a lost cause, heh.

Burden of what proof?  Do you even know what that term means?  The fact that you're slinging it around here seems to indicate you're using it as a buzzword.  What on earth are you possibly referring to?


Apparently you don't understand the problem, which is, in itself, the problem (or one of them, anyway).  People are tired of seeing the same crap posted by you and others, over and over.  Most of it's irrational, fictional or exaggerated.  A small percentage of it is legitimate, which is fine, but repeating it over and over, regardless of it's legitimacy is annoying to basically everyone but you.  If you stopped posting today, and never posted again, the only thing that would happen is the forum quality would improve.  That's what I'm saying, you bring nothing of value to the forum with your mind numbing postings repeating the same things over and over.  There's no new discourse when you are around, anything new that starts to brew in a thread, you post in, and it quickly degenerates.  Do you seriously deny this?  Threads I don't even participate in suffer from this, so it's not *me* that's wrecking the threads, it's *you*.


I don't laugh at the customers or call them assholes or douchebags unless they start out by being an asshole or douchebag.  Once again (how many times do I have to point this out until you get it through your head?) - if you start out with respect, you get respect in return.  If you start out as an asshole, well you get what you deserve. Stop being an asshole is the solution.

It was probably this block: http://blockchain.info/block-index/411831/000000000000000e574e965e02234f21e3b5dd1ff5d830bd5e47005da9996146

Which was actually found by BTCguild.  It often happens that two blocks are found in fairly close proximity time wise, when that happens, they don't even show up as invalids, since they did not even have time to get paid out, so they are just discarded.  The only time you'll see an invalid is if there is a significant time delay between when a block was found and when it's validated by the network.

Bruno, I don't know what sort of mental disorder you suffer from and frankly I don't really care. 

I'll tell you what, why don't you come to BFL and take a tour of the place, meet the people that work here and bear personal witness to the whole business?  You seem to be under some strange manic obsession that is unexplainable, so perhaps actually seeing the thing you are obsessed with will return your chemical balance to it's more  ... rational ... state?

I'm serious, I will cover your hotel bill and travel expenses, all you have to do is show up to the offices.  Feel free to bring a friend and/or a camera if it will make you feel better and you want to.  The only thing I ask is you try not to talk about cocks and "jezz" the entire time.

I suspect you'll elect not to take me up on this offer, because I believe you are purely an attention seeking sensationalist that has no real interest in the welfare of the community or the truth.  It's all about what kind of attention you can garner for yourself, isn't it?

Like I said, stop being an asshole and a douchebag and you'll get the same respect in  return (although you'll have a long, hard road, given your history).  Once again, you're a perfect example of the root of the problem.  You, quite literally, are the cause of the problem.  You find it impossible to approach a situation with rationality and reasonability, instead immediately launching into an adversarial, caustic tone.  Literally your first sentence in response is an insult, and that's why you get what you get and I have zero respect for you.  I very, very seriously doubt you'll find very many people that disagree with the fact that if you and the rest of the anti-BFL crew stopped posting the same crap over and over on the forums that the placed would be much, much nicer to discuss bitcoin.  But as it is now, every single thread you post in turns into a mire of crap.  I avoid some threads all together and yet the thread turns into a junkpile the minute you start posting, that should tell you something.

On the contrary, I started out as a miner and was, while not equally skeptical of BFL in the beginning as some people,  indeed quite skeptical.  I have been a big open source advocate and support the "community" both in and out side of bitcoin. I am on the side of the miners, not on the side of business.  Believe it or not, I advocate the miners perspective inside the company here.  However, with that position I also have to weigh that against the best interests of the business and find a balance that both sides can live with (note, I do not say are happy with.  As someone said, though I can't recall to whom I should attribute the quote, Twain perhaps and I'm paraphrasing regardless "A successful negotiation is where both parties leave unhappy.") and allow the business to continue to function and grow.  

I suspect I might be able to anticipate your response to this, but perhaps not... so I'll leave it there for now.


Ok, lets grant your position for a minute as being true and look at it from that perspective.  As a business entity acting in it's own best interest, why would a business not do that if it were a way to ensure it's own survival?  If that were an effective tactic (and you say it is, so I'll take your word on it), to not use it and allow competition to consume your marketshare would be incredibly stupid.  Why would you expect a business to act in a manner that is directly in conflict with it's own continued existence?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The reality is, though, that the timeline and specs that were offered were believed to be true at the time.  If I were around at the time, I would have pushed for a more extended timeline with more flexibility, just like I am pushing for the Monarch now.  I am not the final say in this company by any means, my word carries weight but it does not carry the day when that day ends.  I am an advocate for the miner here within BFL, but I'm also aware of the needs of business, which most, if not all, of the detractors are completely oblivious to or just do not want to acknowledge.  

You speak of change, and that's great.  But the cost of that change is the insolvency at worst or severely deteriorating business.  There is no business in this market that can operate in the altruistic manner you appear to want.  BFL is not a charity or a non-profit organization, it's a for profit business.  Acting against that would be nonsensicle and once people finally come to accept and understand that bitcoin is now a business and not some pie-in-the-sky dream of libertarians (much to their chagrin, I'm sure), perhaps the fervor and irrationality may die down a bit, but that day is probably a long way off.  But just because the world isn't the way you want the world to be (I'm using the royal "you" here, not you specifically) is not an excuse for you to be an asshat on the internet.  It's those people I do not care for or respect.

3 @ 5.25

Of course it does, that's what the vast majority of the "questions" center around.


There are no intentionally misleading statements or advertising.  Statements and advertising were given as what was believed to be true at the time.  If you can't see that, it's impossible to continue this line of discussion and serves as a direct example as to why it's impossible to hold a rational conversation with people on this forum.  The fact that you (apparently) honestly believe that this was some sort of scam from it's inception, with a complicated, methodical and intricate plot to dissemination misinformation and advertising is why no rational answer will satisfy.


See #1 above.  If you honestly believe we knew our power usage was going to be something other than what we said it was, it serves as yet another example of why it's impossible to hold a rational conversation.  You already have it in your mind that there was wrongdoing and that things were the way you want them to be, as opposed to what they really were.


Ok, lets address this.  I seriously doubt I can get a rational response out of you with regards to this, but I will try to hold a rational conversation, but first I need one thing from you, because this one thing will illustrate my further dialog.

Please provide an example of disrespectful customer service that I have initiated.  I ask this of you because I only respond disrespectfully to people who approach in a disrespectful, rude, offensive or otherwise unacceptable manner.  I do not initiate hostile dialog, merely respond to it.  This point was lost long ago on most people, because they are inherently irrational in their hatred of BFL.  If you begin a dialog by lying, posting false information, writing in an exceptionally rude manner, etc... you can expect the same in return, as I have no respect or use for you.  On the other hand, as so (sadly) few people have found out, when you approach the situation with common courtesy, rationality and respect, you get the same in return.

Now, before you provide "evidence" of one of the typical troll crew asking "polite" information, please take into account past actions.  Once you have a history of trolling and being a general ass hat, it doesn't matter how you continue down the line, you are already completely useless to the conversation and no amount of concern-trolling will repair that situation.  With that in mind, please provide examples of where someone approached the dialog in a polite, respectful manner from the get-go and got a vitriolic, disrespectful response.  Bear in mind, I'm not saying it hasn't happened on the rare occasion (though I can't think of any, honestly), but those instances, if they even exist are so few and far between that they don't really apply in this context that you are referring to (That of a systemic, unilateral response paradigm from me).


This seems like part of the above, which has already been addressed.  Again, what you consider inadequate usually means it is some sort of information you *really* *really* want to know but aren't *really* entitled to.


Again, how would this "core group of users" you are referring to be helped if BCF "went after" BFL?  You still haven't answered this question.

And what would these "very very valid concerns" be that haven't already been addressed elsewhere?  Please keep in mind, that what you might consider a "very very valid concern" isn't really a "very very valid concern" as the general world/business world understands it.  Asking for proprietary and/or non-public information would be an example of this.  You may *really* *really* want to know that information, but it's not normal or reasonable to ask for it and that's why it hasn't been provided.  Just because you *really* *really* want to know something doesn't make it "very very valid." 

I look forward to your answer.

Ok, so how would the Bitcoin Foundation "going after" BFL do anything for these people you are referring to?

Bump

Yeah, I'm sure a core group of rabid, psychotic, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts with personality disorders are real high on their priority list.  You do realize that the "core" group you're referring to are looked at as nutjobs by everyone but themselves, right?