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4401  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 03:10:02 PM
The python 2.7 version works fine on my system even though I have python 2.6, so either you've screwed up the dependencies again...

Quote
Package: armory
Version: 0.74-python2.7-1
Architecture: amd64
Maintainer: Alan C. Reiner <alan.reiner@gmail.com>
Installed-Size: 13296
Depends: libpython2.6, python-qt4, python-twisted

...yup, you've screwed up again Roll Eyes ...or it doesn't depend on a particular version of python at all, in which case you can safely remove it from the dependency list, and I have no idea what was causing psy's problems.
4402  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: How do I avoid high transaction fees? on: April 20, 2012, 02:44:58 PM
The fee depends on how much data is needed to send your transaction, which in turn depends on where your coins came from (since a transaction is just a list of where the coins came from plus where they're going). If you received your 20 BTC in (let's say) 2000 separate payments of 0.01 BTC each, then sending them requires much more data (and thus a much higher fee) than if you received the 20 BTC in a single payment. This also means that if later on you withdraw all your bitcoins from Mt Gox in a single transaction, you'll be able to send them again with a much lower fee, since all the coins came from the same place and thus the transaction requires less data.
4403  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 02:32:28 PM
Actually, I meant that my .deb file produced on 10.04 with python2.6 worked on Ubuntu 11.10 which uses python 2.7 and it worked when I manually installed the dependencies.  Which is why I posted the apt-get installer line in my original .deb posting.
You manually installed libpython2.6 on top of libpython2.7? Shocked Or are you saying your binary doesn't really depend on libpython2.6 at all? Because psy's post:
But when trying to start Armory it crashes when swig_import_helper tries to load libpython2.6.so.1.0 on CppBlockUtils.py line 21 because it doesn't exists...
seems to indicate pretty conclusively that it does. Or doesn't it?

As for dependencies, I noticed that I had all my dependencies on the "Build-Depends" line, and no "Depends" line.   I'm trying to get dependencies worked out, but every time I compile the .deb, it overwrites my depends line and puts it's own in there.  Definitely needs some improvement.
What the Hell? That doesn't make any sense. If whatever crazy packager you're using doesn't start making more sense, you may be better off just creating the .deb file by hand. Roll Eyes

Btw, your suggestion for Categories seems to have worked... almost.  I now have 2 of the 3 icons under my "Internet" tab, but the other one somehow ends up in "Other" anyway.  I think I may have messed up my menu Sad
I think you may have just made a typo. Wink
4404  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 01:43:08 PM
Speaking of which, I'm obviously quite disappointed with the lack of success of these packages.  It sounds like I'd have to compile a different version for python 2.5, 2.6 and 2.7, and amd64 and i386.  That's at least 6 packages (and 6 configurations I need) Sad    For now, I actually can support amd64-python2.6 and amd64-python2.7.  And probably the equiv for i386.

Is there a way to set up the package for install and make-install instead of dumping the binaries in the package instead?  I mean, I know someone can just download the source and do that, but obviously I want to find a way to make this easily supported. 

In the end, were all problems related to the python issue? 
Looks like it. The different python versions use different filenames for the library, even though the different versions are mostly compatible, causing the interpreter to crash when it can't find the version of the library it expects. Is there no way of using the statically-linked python interpreter? Or does it need to dynamically linked for Qt or something? (I don't know anything about python)

Clearly something was wrong with the dependencies, but it still worked on my system, so I thought I'd throw it out there to find out that no one else could use it, anyway.  I'll try to get that all straightened out today.  If you used the package and you were successful, please let me know!  All I've heard is unsuccess!
Well of course it worked on your system, you built it after all, so obviously you have all the dependencies already. It also works on my system, because I already downloaded the dependencies when I was building from the source. It's the people who don't have the dependencies already who need the package to contain a correct dependency list, otherwise the package will install without the correct dependencies, and that won't work at all.

I think the following dependencies are correct (for the binary package, compiling from source requires extra stuff):
libpython2.6
python-qt4
python-twisted
(all other dependencies are children of these dependenies, so can be excluded from the list)
4405  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 12:41:28 PM
FINALLY!  Ubuntu/Debian package for Armory!
Great!

Could you propose your package to Debian, to be included in the official repositories?

Considering the dependencies are incorrect and it creates invalid menu entries, and currently requires a program (bitcoin) which is not in the official Debian repositories, I don't think it's quite at that stage yet. Wink
4406  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 08:00:12 AM
Well, I can't install it. It wants libpython2.6. It seems libpython2.7 is not good enough for it, despite being good for 0.73-alpha.

Tried to trick the installer, and I was successful on doing it. But when trying to start Armory it crashes when swig_import_helper tries to load libpython2.6.so.1.0 on CppBlockUtils.py line 21 because it doesn't exists...
It seems that when compiling from source, it uses whatever version of libpython you happen to have, but the binary in the Debian package is dynamically linked to libpython2.6. I don't see a solution as long as Armory needs to be dynamically linked to libpython.

Also noticed that ArmoryQt.py didn't had permissions set for being executed as an application. Until I gave it permissions it didn't even crashed, just didn't worked at all Cheesy
I'm pretty sure python programs don't need executable permissions. At least they don't in python 2.6...

Well, hang on to your older Ubuntu distros, because I can't even find libpython2.6 on Synaptic anymore, just 2.7 and 3.2, both of which are installed.
That's because you can't have python 2.6 and 2.7 both installed on the same system, so any given distro will only have one or the other. Sucks. (You can downgrade from 2.7 to 2.6 if you change your distro settings, but installing packages from a different distro almost always ends in tears. I do not recommend you attempt this.)
4407  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 07:01:43 AM
Okay, now that github has started working again, let's have a look here...

Uh, I think there's still some work to be done on that dependency list:
Quote
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.11), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.1), libpython2.6 (>= 2.6), libstdc++6 (>= 4.4.0)
You mean Armory doesn't require Qt4 any more? Shocked

Also, your .desktop files are invalid. "Categories=GNOME;Applications;Internet;" should be changed to "Categories=Qt;Network;", since "GNOME" is not a main category (and Armory is based on Qt, not GNOME) and neither "Applications" nor "Internet" are valid categories at all. Since there is no valid main category specified, KDE just dumps the menu entries in "Lost & Found". For reference, a list of valid menu categories can be found here.

Other than those major flaws it's all good. Smiley
4408  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 20, 2012, 05:18:14 AM
FINALLY!  Ubuntu/Debian package for Armory!  Including Menus! 

https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/downloads

All the downloads on that page give 405 Method Not Allowed. Sad
4409  Economy / Economics / Re: BITCOIN ATM MACHINES on: April 19, 2012, 10:53:57 PM
For small amounts it's perfectly relevant, for big amounts I wouldn't trust bitbills (or any variant) anyway.
Regarding the hacking opportunities you're wrong, pulling off a double spend isn't exactly as easy as tricking the faucet, the ATM will just wait ten seconds in order for the first payment to be properly propagated.
What if I create a transaction that should require a fee, but I don't include a fee with it?  Then the transaction is propogated with 0 conf, but it'll never go through.  In the meantime, at some point afterward, I can create another transaction with a fee sending those coins to my own address.  Viola!  Free cash from the ATM.

Solution: Have the ATM refuse to pay out on unconfirmed no-fee transactions, and instead have it print out a receipt with a QR code that can be redeemed for cash at the same ATM after the transaction gets confirmed (if it ever does).
4410  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin - The Libertarian Introduction (a primer on Bitcoin) on: April 19, 2012, 10:23:47 PM
there's no other way it profit from such an attack
This statement isn't factually correct. There may be many additional incentives.
For example, a bank could profit financially from destroying Bitcoin's image because people would return to the traditional financial system. At $84,349.58 for a one-day 51% attack*, I'd say it's chump change for financial institutions; add in a couple of double-spends, and you'll not only fuck Bitcoin permanently, but even profit!

* Cost amortized over a year of operation. (Caveat will be removed for conciseness.)

You can't add in a couple of double-spends, you can only pull of one double-spend before everyone on the network realises there is something very wrong, at which point everybody will stop accepting bitcoins until the attack is over. Once the attack is over, the network will resume functioning as normal. A one-day 51% attack doesn't fuck Bitcoin permanently, it only fucks Bitcoin for one day.
4411  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduction + Moneypak for BTC + Anonymity on: April 19, 2012, 09:46:04 PM
Why do you insist on PayPal? What is your reason for not paying cash?
4412  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 19, 2012, 09:40:19 PM
One issue is that my package was not setup to be "make install"ed
It's not supposed to be. It's a python program. What tool are you using that requires a Makefile?

There's 10k-15k lines of C++ that needs to be compiled in my project (not including the cryptopp libraries, too).  There's no way in hell any python program could scan the blockchain like Armory does -- I wrote a ton of optimized C++ under the hood that does the heavy lifting for me (via swig).
D'oh! I somehow managed to completely forget about that! This is why I probably shouldn't post at 1:00 AM. Embarrassed Yeah, just stuff the compiled binaries in /usr/bin/ with the others, no need to bother with the source (at least not in the binary package). Oh, and change whatever's needed to get it to work with the new directory structure.

I've never actually done anything other than dpkg --install for .deb files.  I should've known there were other tools, but I never needed them.  Is GDebi what comes up when you double-click on something in Ubuntu?
I don't know about Ubuntu, but I'm pretty sure some kind of user-friendly package manager comes up. I don't think the Ubuntu folks would want users messing around with dpkg! Wink

I had zero experience with deb files before yesterday.  I am still catching on to all the different options.  But as you say, it's simple, so it should be no problem getting it done by this weekend Smiley
Good luck! Smiley
4413  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 19, 2012, 02:50:35 PM
Every time I've installed a debian package with dpkg -i, it juts fails if I don't have the dependencies installed.  Then I apt-get install them and dpkg works just fine.  I was assuming that's how my package was going to work.
dpkg is an extremely low-level tool, it's not supposed to be run manually. You're supposed to install packages using a package manager like APT or GDebi. It makes things much easier. Wink

One issue is that my package was not setup to be "make install"ed
It's not supposed to be. It's a python program. What tool are you using that requires a Makefile?

I assume I'm going to have to define that, or make a work around.  I still haven't totally figured out how everything is specified.   In fact, it makes more sense to me when I just unpack a .deb file and see the way the way it's laid out internally... but I know in the long run I'll be better off with a tool for it.
Just dump the python files into /usr/bin/ (yes, even though they're not true binaries) and the images and whatnot in /usr/share/ -- that's the usual way of doing it, right? The hard part is creating the preinst, prerm, postinst, and postrm scripts, I think that's the only thing you need the tools for. But those scripts are completely optional if all you need to do is dump some files on the user's hard drive - the scripts are just to create the appropriate menu entries and desktop shortcuts and such.

The point of my previous post was not any particular point but that I was simply making progress -- actually having a .deb that installs garbage is better than having zero-experience with .deb files.  I should have it all figured out by this weekend...
Creating a .deb file that installs garbage is easy - it's just a tarball with some metadata glued to it in the form of another tarball, after all. I don't actually have much experience with Debian packaging either, but it's pretty easy to figure out. Wink
4414  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 02:09:12 PM
The only way this makes sense as speculation is if one takes a super long term view. Longer than what I usually refer to as long.

Well, I plan to be reincarnated as an indestructible cyborg when the singularity hits, and I need to plan my trading strategy accordingly. Specifically, I need to know whether bitcoins will go up or down in value over the next several centuries. Cheesy
4415  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 01:46:18 PM
Why is this in speculation ?

Probably because the question is about something that's not going to happen for about a hundred years or so? I think that's about as speculative as you can get! Grin
4416  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Armory - Discussion Thread on: April 19, 2012, 01:41:28 PM
Next up is creating a Debian package for nearly the same simplicity in Ubuntu/Debian (you will still have to install the dependencies the first time, but then every update should be a double-click).
The Debian package control file is supposed to contain a list of dependencies for the package manager to download and install automatically. That's kind of the whole point of using Debian packages in the first place. Tongue
I thought that apt-get will install dependencies for you.  But a raw .deb package will simply fail telling you what packages you're missing...?
APT will install dependencies for you, and will is supposed to fail if it can't install them for whatever reason. That's why your statement that "you will still have to install the dependencies the first time" left me wondering if you knew how Debian packages are supposed to work. And what do you mean by "a raw .deb package"? .deb packages are about as cooked as they get, and APT doesn't handle any other kind of files, at least as far as I know.

So far, all it does is installs documentation and marks it for the wrong architecture.
Okay, now I'm convinced you don't understand how Debian packages are supposed work. Tongue You're supposed to specify the architecture in the control file, along with the dependency list and all that other stuff. Wait, how did APT install documentation if it's marked for the wrong architecture? Shocked What exactly are you doing to the poor thing?
4417  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 12:55:38 PM
You are assuming that all miners are motivated solely by profit and would not turn down a fee of any amount, not even a single satoshi. Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic, but I think there will always be at least some miners willing to sacrifice a portion of their profit "for the good of the network", as it were. I also think that if the difficulty drops dangerously low, a large number of these self-sacrificial miners will emerge to try to save the network. It's even possible (or even probable) that if Bitcoin becomes a major global economy, major governments will get behind it, spending taxpayers' dollars (bitcoins?) on unprofitable mining operations to ensure the security of the network.
You don't have to mine to donate hashing power. The easiest way is to just make transactions with high fees.

Yes, and the easiest way to convince people to pay higher fees is for a group of miners to only process high-fee transactions.

Hmmm... It would be better if "pay a fee for faster processing" was implemented at the protocol level rather than being left up to miners (though such a protocol change would easily be accepted if enough miners felt they couldn't work out any other solution). Perhaps something like a minimum transaction fee equal to the block number's largest prime factor. That way, transactions with a fee of only 1 satoshi will have to wait for a prime numbered block, while higher-fee transactions are allowed more frequently. Clients can recommend a specific fee by working out the factors of upcoming blocks and asking the user how long they are willing to wait. Just a random idea, I don't know how well it would work in practice.
4418  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 11:01:30 AM
In 30 years I imagine that internet connectivity and computing power will speed up. When rewards drop significantly, what would happen if you decrease difficulty to decrease block creation time?

In short, not much. Although miners would get the block reward more frequently, the block reward halving would happen more frequently as well, causing it to balance out exactly. To put it another way, there are only 21 million BTC to be distributed, the only difference is how fast you distribute them. Furthermore, each individual block would have fewer transactions, and therefore less transaction fees, but you get more blocks, again balancing it out exactly. 10 minutes was chosen because it's not so long that transactions take forever to be confirmed and not so fast that network propagation delays result in stale blocks.
4419  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 10:28:49 AM
No, your services are not identical to competitors' services. You are not just selling spaces in blocks which you might find in the future, you are selling spaces in blocks which you might find in the near future. People don't just want their transaction included a block eventually, they want their transaction included in a block immediately, and they will probably be willing to pay extra to make it happen. As long as there are some miners who refuse to accept small fees, there will be an incentive for people to pay higher fees, since this is the only to guarantee that their transactions will be included in a block as quickly as possible.
Yes, but that requires selfless sacrifice from the refusing miners so the equilibrium price still approaches zero (given that there is no cost for the users to lower their fees).

You are assuming that all miners are motivated solely by profit and would not turn down a fee of any amount, not even a single satoshi. Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic, but I think there will always be at least some miners willing to sacrifice a portion of their profit "for the good of the network", as it were. I also think that if the difficulty drops dangerously low, a large number of these self-sacrificial miners will emerge to try to save the network. It's even possible (or even probable) that if Bitcoin becomes a major global economy, major governments will get behind it, spending taxpayers' dollars (bitcoins?) on unprofitable mining operations to ensure the security of the network.
4420  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will transaction fees alone be enough incentive to keep miners mining? on: April 19, 2012, 09:42:07 AM
No. Competition will drive fees to a negligible amount. You are not selling spaces in already found blocks (which would give you some monopoly pricing power), you are selling spaces in blocks which you might find in the future. Your services are identical to competitors' services. If not, then competitors can easily make them identical. All business goes to whoever sets the lowest price. The equilibrium price approaches zero. End of story.

No, your services are not identical to competitors' services. You are not just selling spaces in blocks which you might find in the future, you are selling spaces in blocks which you might find in the near future. People don't just want their transaction included a block eventually, they want their transaction included in a block immediately, and they will probably be willing to pay extra to make it happen. As long as there are some miners who refuse to accept small fees, there will be an incentive for people to pay higher fees, since this is the only to guarantee that their transactions will be included in a block as quickly as possible.
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