There is also the dictatorial rule, which is not necessarly plutocratic(feudal, noble republic ancestors) , based on the absolute rule of 1 individual or a small group of individuals. This differs from plutocracy in the sense that it's not wealth oriented, it's power oriented, absolute domination (soviet union ,etc.)

I`d prefer a decentralized capitalism model, where everyone could have enough money to prosper, but not enough money to subjugate his fellow men. And since the majority of people would have equal wealth and the rich would be only richer by x50 or maybe x100 but not by x100000000 as it is now, so the income and wealth gap would be smaller.

If wealth would be correctly distributed, by merit of each individual (and not by blindless socialist redistribution which goes to the most unproductive), is by definition a free market capitalism.

Since what other (financial) merit can a person have other than run a succesful business and become rich?

Hot babes, makes my jaw drop

Ok but i dont know which one of you is the socialist, but do you guys realize that socialism will only worsten that labour compensation problem.


I am a 100% hardcore pure capitalist, and I also agree that people work more and more and earn less and less, but socialism will only make things worse.


The root cause of this issue is the money printing mechanism / overregulation. If you could liberate the economy and end money counterfeiting, then I guarantee you the chart would look like this in a few years:

Thats pretty lame, and I was just about to invest 0.1 BTC in it, well then bad luck, i guess i have to wait 8 more months too!

Yea but gold mining isn't necessary, while bitcoin mining it is.

I disagree with satoshi on that, the price is always set by supply and demand (unless its rigged at which point it doesnt matter).


Yea but why would you buy gold if bitcoin is a better alternative. Sure there could be some rich guys in India that dont know or dont trust bitcoin yet, but once they begin to trust bitcoin more, i`m sure bitcoin will prevail.

Not to mention that after a bail-in haircut theft session begins, the popular targets for the haircut will be: saving accounts,checking accounts and gold vaults. Bitcoin cannot be stolen by that large amounts.



Sure but that is inflation hedging, you dont make ROI with that, you just keep your previously owned wealth.

With bitcoin you can do ROI as the bitcoin economy is rapidly expanding (without printing money schemes) and wont have "recession", because in a free market you cannot have recession as every minor tragedy is priced in rather than postponed for 8 year crash cycles.

The virtual supply is a concern, because it can be a pump and dump scheme, who knows maybe their plan is to surpress the price, buy it all up, and then when it starts to go up they will sell into the rise (very popular trading tactic), and then it will collapse back.

Since gold cant be used as a currency, i already told you that the only thing you can do is to BUY LOW & SELL HIGH (OR BUY HIGH & SELL LOW if you get suckered into the ride)

I dont think Trezor is secure, it's convenient, and it gives "high" security but not "very high" security, but i would not store more than 10 btc with it.

Its the equivalent of a debit card, you dont want your card have access to 1 million $.

For sums bigger than 10 btc, you definitely want cold storage only. I`m not sure if electrum is safe enough yet, since these bugs make me have less trust in it.

Especially the one where your broadcast window opens again after you sent the transaction already. Who knows if the private key is not leaking, since normally the private key would only be decrypted until it's signed, and then quickly ereased from RAM.

But with this bug i`m not sure if the private key is not leaking for more time than that.

THIS MIGHT BE A FATAL FLAW, SO DEVS PLEASE CHECK THE BROADCAST BUG ASAP!

Electrum is a 3 year old wallet and there are still numerous problems that need to be worked on it, let me list here my problems with electrum:

• Cant right click and copy the balance of my address nor the description, only the address itself. It's annoying I always have to write down my balance myself: If i got 1.79268367 bitcoin, it have to fking type all digits myself, its really inconvenient.
• When I send bitcoins why isn't there an option of "max", so that it fills out that textbox where I put the amount, with the maximum btc available on that address. Since I cannot copy the balance itself, i have to write every digit there, if i want to transfer all the money from 1 address to another
• Why doesn't the fee automatically been set to 0.0001 by default, and then I modify that if I have to. Instead it's blank when I have to send, so I have to type it in.
• When I send a transaction, I enter password, It gets signed, Then I hit broadcast,Broadcast window closes ,Transaction is sent ,Then broadcast window will be open again if I hit ALT+TAB, fix this bug fast!
• When I export history, it should ask for password, it's just basic logic, if my wallet is somewhat anonymized by new change addresses, and such, then why would you let somebody export all my wallet info without password.
  Ex: a burglar breaks into my house and gets all my privacy related info, without a password.
• When I add a contact, it should show the amount of btc he has on his address, and also it should be copyable , both key and address and balance, as pointed out in point 1.

For the record I use Windows 7, but i`m sure these issues are persistent on all OS.

C`mon these are just basic things every wallet has, fix these issues, otherwise electrum looks like an amateur project. Make it look more professional, so that more people can use it. I`m not asking for much, no fancy buttons or design is needed (yet), but just fix basic bugs and inconveniences.

Oh the horror i got this error again today, i grabbed a screenshot:

Pump and dumps only happen if the market cap is low (easy to manipulate), if its in the hands of a few, or if cheap credit (0%) is available to play in the market. Once the fiat money goes away, i`m sure considerably less pump and dumps will happen.

The price of bitcoin is not because of the bitcoin mining, bitcoin mining is because of the bitcoin price. If you would mine a worthless altcoin with tons of mining power, that would not give that coin value, furthermore your investment will directly go to the pockets of the miners because of inflation. Why would you give away money for free?

Bitcoin price reflects the 100,000 retailers, the 6 billion$ venture firms, and the countless other innovations and perks it brought into the world.
It's more like bitcoin miners are parasites leaching off the network to secure their own profits, which is fine, after all they keep the network alive.



Not really, most people in bitcoin are hoarders, who prepare for the next economy, when bitcoin becomes de facto global reserve currency and they will become pretty rich.

Then there are gamblers, shoppers, derivative investors, traders, service providers, goods sellers, etc.

Bitcoin has a neat inside economy which is starting to become significantly big (gold doesn't have this)


Well bitcoin is both, since its the first currency ever that has an inflation rate tending towards 0% so its appealing.

But maybe some folks will sell at 10000$, thats their business, but that doesnt mean bitcoin wont become a global currency soon.

Speculators are in every currency, which is fine, they give market liquidity and small spread, but as a currency it can also be spent, so its not just a commodity only.


Yea because cash is predictable, and it will go to its intrinsic value of 0 soon. Bitcoin is more exciting, although we know it will go to 10,000$ , it can be an exciting ride for traders.

Yea but you still forget that bitcoin is a currency and gold is a commodity.

While bitcoin being a currency, it can be spent, so by definition it cannot be a pump & dump scheme. (atleast not that easy, given that the price is high now and market manipulation is harder than in 2013 with MT Gox inside jobs and fake account manipulation mostly)


Gold is a commodity, which means, from a point of a retail person, the only thing you can do with gold is to buy low and sell high. So it's obvious that if you bought a gold bar, you will eventually have to sell it (and who will buy your gold bar at a higher price than you bought, another investor... hmm sounds like a ponzi? = new investor pays off the old one), because it's not like you will go into a store and buy milk with it.

Thus Gold, by definition will be a pump & dump scheme forever, until they dont invent teleportation (to make gold transfer just as easy as bitcoin transfer)

Please fix your quoting, your post is hard to read but i get it.

So basically your argument is that gold has a high price because of the mining costs, but thats a no argument.

Thats like saying I sell a rock for 20$ just because I draw a eye on it with a marker.

http://www.petrock.com/


It doesnt justify the high price, it make it look more like a scam or a hype. If the only thing that gives significant value (apart from the ones you put charts with) is central bank/ commercial bank hoarding (with printed money purchases=stealing from you through inflation to hoard this crap) and the mining cost which is a no argument; then your argument sucks and makes no sense.

If apart from jewelry,electronics,dentistry, etc uses, only central bank & other institutionals hoard it with some gold bugs, it makes it look like a scam.

Why? Because they artificially pump up the price and then exit from it by duping the retail gold bugs to buy their short orders. Thats what happens 99% of the time with trading. Institutionals come in, they hype it up, and then they exit the trade by seling their overinflated instrument to newcomer retailers.

A pump & dump scam.

Alright then I was a bit wrong, so that gives intrinsic value to gold, splendid.

However I still disagree with the gold price. If that is all what gives value to gold, then perhaps gold should be = to silver.

Why? Because silver fulfills the exact same demands as gold, yet silver has a considerably lower price.

There are 10 billion ounces of gold and 66 billion ounces of silver, so following your logic GOLD  should be:  SILVER PRICE * 6.6 = 15.38* 6.6 =101.58 $ / troy ounce (and that is only if the silver price is not overspeculated as well, which it is)

And its 1100$ due to cental bank hoarding, so it seems to me as if, only the hoarding and speculative bubble gives this extra boost to gold.

So roughly, the speculators in both commodities have drove the price really up, and they don't really make any sense.

Ah c`mon thats a tiny percentage, it's like saying that bitcoin faucets drive the bitcoin economy (when its obvious that the venture capitalists & startups do). 

They put a few miligrams of gold in each chip which is tiny tiny and insignificant.

Gold has only 1 major use, jewelry, which will stay for long term, but that factor is severely overhyped. Gold could be much much lower if CB weren't hoarding it, because jewelry users dont really care about gold price, they care about appearance.

They dont care if gold is 1$ or 1000$, just like if you put a string around your neck with some emblem on it, it maybe cost you 5$ for that amulet, but its only for appearance, not for investing purposes.

Apart from CB hoarding and a few gold bugs, not many other guys are interested in investing. So thats like <1% of the population (not a good trend guys!)

Gold has not much intrinsic value , only as jewelry.

Gold as an investment object, has "investment value", which is separate from it's intrinsic value, and its definitely overhyped.

We cannot have an analog currency in a digital age. We could use gold for jewelry and to show off your wealth, but it won't be a mainstream instrument ever.

Even in the middle ages ,most folks used silver coins or some mixed copper coins that offiicially were issued by the kingdom's mint.

It's hard to believe that gold will become mainstream usage, especially as we go more and more digital in our everyday life (smart TV, smart Phone, Internet of things, flying cars, mentally controlled artificial limbs for disabled people?)

Gold will be only an overhyped instrument for gold bugs, and for central banks storage (who obviously dont know anything about the economy, otherwise wouldn't ruin it)

Opportunists already know this. Gold is a sinking ship on the long term.

I dont think its pure oligarchy, as pure oligarchy would be business oriented, while this system is more theft oriented and pleasing the masses.

Its about a mixture of socialists in the lower ranks, and ultra rich in the higher ranks. At best I would call it socialist oligarchy.

Most of the taxes don't go directly to the wealthy, they get absorbed by low level minion politicians and the inefficient local corrupt bribed ones, or just simple go wasted on unnecessary projects

(Hence the 2004 Athens olympics which led to the construction of enormous stadiums , from an already low budget, for some stupid games, which then led to the whole country go bankrupt few years later.)


Yea but we have to adhere to concepts even if they dont exist in real world. I could say that you don't exist because you are just a collection of cells, and you don't exist as a human.

But we know that in reality we can interpret things that are not necessarly real, but they help our every day lives and association with nature.

Thus private property, however you put it, is valid, and it's a civilized way to organize humanity.

(Unless you wanna go back to hunter gathering communities, which I don't)



Because even a vicous ruler realizes that the longterm benefits overwegith the short one. It's immediate profit if you rob a farm owner of all his crops.
But if you rob him only 1% every year, you get more from him long term, plus he wont rebell against you.

Of course the ruler of the fiefdom only maintains his power over the vassal with force, however if the farm owner would own the land he must also protect it. Thus the monopoly of force wouldn't change, but it would transfer from illegitimate owner, to legitimate owner, and thus decentralize power.

Capitalism doesn't eliminate force, it just decentralizes it.

You know "with great power comes great responsibility", but nobody with great power has responsibility, thus nobody should have great power.



Art like gladiator slaves fighting in a colosseum? That was art once.

While with private property, and some morals mixed in (slave owners are not capitalists who own property, they are criminals, because humans cannot be property according to some moral principles)




Yes they do because some level or organization is always needed in society. But on their own they cannot achieve that, so it becomes a group effort.
The same way , I cannot build a car alone, i need other people's help, and I`ll pay for it.

Distribution of labour is also a sign of civilization, which moved us away from primitive hunter gatherer society.

And only capitalism and free market can distribute labour efficiently.

The printing money scheme allocates resources very poorly, mostly into the elite hands, what would never happen in a free market enviroment.




Thats why judges exist that define the limits of the rights and obligations. Of course with the advent of blockchain technologies, arbitrariness becomes less and less necessary, and things become more and more well-defined.

EX: Private property = Your own thoughts (which is obviously private) containing your private key (which nobody knows about it) = Material posession in the external world in the form of bitcoins.

I dont think the world can be defined with bayesian point of view ever. It's not like we will replace human judges with an AI or something, but if the corruption in the justice system becomes too big, it might come a day when we will be forced to.




Thats not all true, I say again, the top 0.001% elite hardly governs actively, they are more passive governing, and only care about their money, and less about population politics. Which could intersect at some levels, but they rarely do.

Most banks are occupied with giving out credits and financial services to multiply their wealths.

While the real governors, are usually rich, but below 1 billion $, a politician might collect a few million $ if he is in the game for longer period, but you hardly see politicians with 1 billion $.

Thus the politicians who directly make the laws (where small % of the laws were ordered by their puppet masters, and large % of the laws are made by their own wishes or the wishes of their voters) are responsible for the problems caused in the economy.

Yes but ethereal money has also benefits, that are very attractive let's see:

-Civil forfeiture immune
-Semi-anonymous (your medical purchases, and kinky sex toy purchases are anonymous)
-Ultra fast transfer speed
-Ultra low transfer cost
-Bail-out & Bail-in immune
-Secure
-3rd party risk eliminated (unless you are stupid enough to keep all your btc in an online wallet)
-Opens up now Earning Money Opportunities
-New jobs, and new business opportunities
-Immaterial & easy to carry & no security/storage cost
-CAPITAL & BORDER CONTROL IMMUNE
-CENTRAL BANK MONEY PRINTING SCAM IMMUNE
-NO RACIAL,SEXUAL,RELIGIOUS, OR OTHER DISCRIMINATION HERE


ETC.

Now you see gold is very primitive VS these aspects.

Thats bad logic, its like saying the dinosaurs have only become extinct once.

There has never existed a time in history which was so different than the past. Before the 20th century, everything was almost the same.

More or less: wars, peasants, castles, people talking stories to eachother, average life for everyone even the royalty.

Now: we got cars, internet, radio,tv, and every wonder that you can imagine.


Seriously the 21 century is radically different from the past 1 million years of human history , and this technology has already made like 90% of previous human activities obsolete.

Gold only had a purpuse in a merchant economy, with not high tech alternatives, like the ancient and middle ages and renessaince.


Now we got crypocurrency, e-banking, e-money, and such. While fiat money is also in the verge of collapse, i think gold will fall faster eventually.

Payments sent, sorry for being late, i was busy yesterday!

https://blockchain.info/tx/61e4f6ce9800c96d3766ff80e84ecdd0864a40e59f07ae70ba1e92a18b340ba4

They already are, they are renting out the government farmlands, and working on that.

However the rest of it is left untouched, which is a waste of natural resources.

If food prices are low now, it could be double lower, if more farmland were used.

Also the rented farmland is a stupidity, they pay rent to the gov so that they can work on it, but that only drives prices up.

If they would sell the land to them, then they would not have to pay rent and they could sell the food on even lower prices.

The rent that the gov collects will anyway go to corruption, as we all know 95% of the taxes is wasted on bureocracy and corruption and only 5% is distributed efficiently.

This is the big waste what socialism gives to us.


Alright but whatever you prove here that private property is not a real phenomenon, we still need to work around it.

See without a system where private property is admitted, we would all be lazy thieves dieing of hunger.


Why would a farmer waste 1-2 years of his life to work on the crops, if he knows that the farmland is not his land and anytime thieves will gang on him and steal all his products. Private property is the sign of civilization, weather you like it or not.

You just cannot have a civilization with big projects like skyscrapers, and massive projects, without the notion of private property. Because private property gives you relative certainty in an uncertain world.

Private property also comes with self defence, and other important rights.

These socialists think they can manage 7 billion people, and eliminate greed and envy from them, which is obviously impossible. Thats why we live in this shit world as we live in now.

Oh i guarantee you the gemini will bring alot of new guys into the game, i mean a regulated exchange is like honey to the wallstreet whales.

I think alot of whales will come, perhaps not all of them are buyers, maybe some market manipulation will happen too, but the bigger the volume, the more safe the currency becomes and then alteast merchants will be more willing to use it.

It all ties in, and the bitcoin economy will grow.