To me Monero is currently like a pinball game: I hit buy-button when it is down and I hit the sell-button when the price is up. This is much fun for me.  So you're buying? |
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More dumpity dump??  not really. Try with Bitcoinwisdom.  Waiting 0.0016. Is that the price at which you plan to come gloat? |
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Exactly, this should be a non-issue. I would simply ignore them, they seem to be butt-hurt over nonsense.
You mean buutt-huurt, right? You knoow he is not alloowed to mean that! |
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Nice. This is how we roll. 1. Troll shows up with a plan. 2. We give him the benefit of the doubt. 3. We school him on his (fantastically ridiculous) theories. And thereby strengthen our community. 4. We figure out beyond doubt hes a troll. 5. We shame him. 6. We figure out who he is. Nice. |
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STAHP feeding this guy.
Yes. |
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Indeed the CN Team do not dispute any of the BCN Team's version of events. No whistle-blowers crying scam. Not that it necessarily means much. In fact the early history suggests BCN devs helped CN devs implement the code. This has not been disputed by the CN Team either, at least as far as I'm aware
Oh, wait! Crap! You think the CN team and BCN Team actually might KNOW EACH OTHER?!??!?? You really are on another level. |
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If my statements* are obvious to you it flummoxes me how XMR can call out BCN as a scam as though it were the gospel truth. Far too little is known to make definitive comments one way or the other.
Then I will continue to flummox you because for reasons mentioned again and again and again it is quite obvious to me and many others that BCN is a scam. Also you are too articulate and evidently intelligent to not be able to see the EXTREMELY reasonable and overwhelming evidence and have even gone so far as to try to make the argument that the premine was a way to protect the users. Therefore in my opinion, you are a shill. Thanks for playing. Oh, have something to say?? Please, let me get that for you: "If you are going to call people just trying to understand CN 'shills' then you are a bad bad man". Right? Bullshit. PS Dark coin shills will bow down to you if they ever read your shit. |
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Since the discussion digressed to deanonymization through ring signature being compromised, I'd like to add an important point. First of all, it's not exactly the matter of the sum that the attacker holds. It's about outputs that he controls. That means that even though you may have not more than 20% of the emission, you may be able to create a lot of smaller outputs, which would significantly diminish the barrier. Secondly, a group of large holders may agree to use their outputs to act as one single malicious user and do it in a manner described above. Finally, if somebody deanonymizes the outputs used in ring signatures, it does not destroy anonymity. Anonymity in CN is achieved through untraceability (ring signatures) and unlinkability (stealth addresses). Even though the attacker would be able to identify which particular inputs were spent (untraceability removed), he would never be able to prove that 2 transactions were sent to one wallet or learn a balance of any wallet. This extreme case decreases anonymity in general, but does not destroy it. Even without ring signatures, CN is much better off in terms of privacy protection than Bitcoin. One other thing.
An open offer (until when and if I decide to close it):
If anyone can tell me exactly how many XMR are held here:
4BCkyJpxKT76d832D5viMX2MxFgXASxpkdf6zGhXp1tV8WonDBwU7qfT1eXPfjn9gHMju8s6ckVrhN6 t6tSWVZJUAwovRsa
I will multiply that amount times ONE HUNDRED and pay the winner.
Bonus:
If anyone can name a destination address and an amount sent from this account in the last 6 months
I will multiply the current balance of the above address by TEN and pay the winner. (Of course in this scenario you'd have to trust me as to my math wouldn't you?)
Due to unlinkability property it is impossible to tell your balance at all even if the ringsig did not exist. Destination address can not be learned due to the very same reason (each output is sent to a unique stealth address). The tx amount is also not identifiable as CN protocol sends more money than the tx requires (which is returned as change and obfuscates the transferred sum). Does anybody here understand the way it works at all? I would complain that explaining a magician's trick is bad form. But he doesn't get the explanation and you don't get the trick. Ignorance all around. We are still safe! By the way. That bag you are holding is never likely to be more valuable than it is now. |
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One other thing.
An open offer (until when and if I decide to close it):
If anyone can tell me exactly how many XMR are held here:
4BCkyJpxKT76d832D5viMX2MxFgXASxpkdf6zGhXp1tV8WonDBwU7qfT1eXPfjn9gHMju8s6ckVrhN6 t6tSWVZJUAwovRsa
I will multiply that amount times ONE HUNDRED and pay the winner.
Bonus:
If anyone can name a destination address and an amount sent from this account in the last 6 months
I will multiply the current balance of the above address by TEN and pay the winner. (Of course in this scenario you'd have to trust me as to my math wouldn't you?)
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No.
I am arguing that ALL cryptonote coins have a fatal flaw which allows large stakeholders to conspire to de-anon tx's. I am not making any distinctions.
There are 2 solutions to this flaw:
1) ensure fair distro of coins
2) prevent a malicious attacker from getting too many coins by mining them yourself (and holding)
I am NOT saying BCN devs were motivated to premine as 2) suggests, only pointing out it is one of two ways that this attack can be prevented. If there is a 3rd i'd like to hear it.
However both solutions are themselves flawed.
In 2) we have to trust the early stakeholders which is a big ask. In 1) we have to trust the distro will go fairly, which it seldom does, and trust that those accumulating coins have no ill intentions.
That's my point. I think the logic is sound. It's a Catch 22 for CN.
And you're wrong. You are right #2 is problematic at it's core. It breaks the trustless nature of the coins completely. And #1 is meaningless without defining "fair". Fact: It is extremely likely that Monero has had a braod enough distribution that your claims are false. |
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PLEASE answer my specific question:
To be clear this is an attack only the premine holders can perform/help perform?
Thanks
Im not disagreeing with you but the answer to my question is YES, yes?
I'm a poker player Wanderlust, and I have worked hard to hone my skills at situational logic in a game of incomplete information. Discussing money on a forum is a related activity in that there are people with a stake one way or another (sometimes not even financially) involved in the conversation. At times the various posters (players) can be seen making a point or saying something that is contradictory. And that reveals a bias. You are currently arguing that CN in general and XMR specifically has a terrible weakness in that large holders might conspire to de-anonymize transactions even though this is most likely virtually impossible. At the same time you are arguing that Bytecoin may have an anonymity advantage since there may only be a SINGLE large holder (or group) since it was so significantly premined. So you are saying the coin is SAFER since it's trustless status has already been completely compromised. Your bias is clear and your logic so tortured and spun that were we playing a card game I feel I could place a bet with relative certainty of your strength and position. |
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i want that doughnut.
You should never have too much!!! Here have this slightly smaller one: |
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That is such a ridiculous reach it hurts my brain.
You are really looking more and more like a BCN apologist. And that's fine... I would rather know who I am talking to than not.
Apologies for sounding the apologist, but there is a Catch 22 here. Either u trust a coin will be disto'd fairly (which never happens) and risks being bought out,by a bad player or u trust a group of anon guys not to sell or de-anon themselves. Either way with ALL CN coins we have to trust that large holders do not conspire to de-anon our tx's  You don't even need a fair distribution (which I assume is an egalitarian distribution in your example). You just cannot have one that has 80% in one cartel. In Monero say you hold 30% of the coins. It would cost at least $3,000,000 to get to 80%. Monero does not have an anonymity problem. That is FUD. |
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why stop giving me the benefit of the doubt after my most curious insight thus far that arguably a CN coin's anon cannot be safeguarded unless a large % is never sold on exchanges or mined by bad actors or both, and (very tentatively, perhaps regrettably) provides BCN with a justification for a premine.
Because you are acting as a BCN apologist. You are trying to stretch reason to the point of snapping to defend an 80% premine. Why would you be doing this? I can only think of a couple reasons. The one you are portraying is that of "honest curiosity". You will not often see me accuse a poster of attempting to pump a coin... I am getting close though. |
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That is such a ridiculous reach it hurts my brain.
You are really looking more and more like a BCN apologist. And that's fine... I would rather know who I am talking to than not.
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The only way to prevent gov(s)/attacker(s)/whoever(s) buying-in and/or mining in order to de-anon the CN system would be to premine a huge amount and vow to not sell it.
That is a central bank.
(LOL. I know that sounds like trolling but the logic is sound, yes? In this scenario the creators, aware of the fatal flaw, take the only measure possible to securie its anonymity forever*, assuming they keep their vow to never sell)
FWIW I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt as we get to know you. You just added enough to the "doubt" pile that I am second guessing that benefit. |
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Neato. I wonder what his intentions/interest are? |
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guys my 280 xmr donation is still missing. thanks for taking care of it!  Hmm... Sorry about that. let me see if I dropped the ball somehow. If so that and the others here will be incoming within 24 hours. |
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