I found that in the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348468 there were posted a lot of addresses though its not really the topic there. Because of that i will collect all deposit addresses in this thread and collect it in this first post once posted by the users. Some users sent me a pm with the address too because they want to stay anonymous. Maybe we find out what happened with the coins that "are gone". Everyone feel free to investigate in the hope something interesting is found!User JoseRolles created another tool to collect the addresses. They can be posted there anonymously too: So I put together a quick site where we can collect all the addresses in one place... http://www.jspmedia.net/weexadd/You can add your address anonymously and quickly. Anyone can go there and view the addresses collected so far. It updates autonomously using Firebase. List of weexchange user deposit addresses: 1P7tdTzWhpYoV87L4v4gZwhd6mAnT7fiD4 1JvJBF59uxkfMqqBxv5RoNCGS92wAnGewL 1LjXuWRfgY7G3akEspgZxVE5toAKcGMaPj 15GhbQJJJCgrWNz4XjPyBrDbHMgHxPcKi3 19UQiHUjy26ZDZfQr6S8fTNJzirbGb8nk4 1EPuWB8BbeLG4m8cSbqug3oRqb2GVXT19X 16UYZoVwVC4jHszXGGVsRx4Nsni5khx3Mz 1JvPAarhmVyfoWYDYuZ6NCp7YL3GPiB11n 18rTzHGa9iuGqkv6tcXTFVASZppiMWfsWz 1Kv2KNrDD77ZEjiXkYZ6EqCGkHmXWH7yG 1LN99wLNnNdqEh2ADyEvWVYViTtcrfHBvC 15EbbDJ2Po1RxXCx9oa2n1h1fXnKx5mM1y Additional info to certain deposit addresses: * 1P7tdTzWhpYoV87L4v4gZwhd6mAnT7fiD4 The address is empty now. Even though i see letsdice.com appear there... i never used that website. I believe what happened is that this website is sending one satoshi to used addresses because blockchain.info is posting the name of the website then which means advertising for the domain name. So its pretty sure neither iam nor ukyo used the domain in connection with my deposit address. Ok, when i see what happened with my last deposited bitcoins, around 158 BTC, then they were sent to 1KMmWYbWHQjBZY14hXENGXeb5aMyoQynvg and a small part to 1BDtP3xdCQ1Zj1wJDxLPu8mf1uvuspQ3BU I believe what happened was that ukyo paid out a withdraw request from a weexchange user. The small transaction was a withdraw to a user wallet and the big transactions target is a change address in the weexchange wallet. Weexchange change addresses then are for example: The big BTC-part was sent then from 1KMmWYbWHQjBZY14hXENGXeb5aMyoQynvg is sent to 1BYrnppD62tj2cn1HD32iD6Bv2t9sTESYH, then to 12Nz2KmzVfnsrCK7HVYzw4LLYp4iQtqU4P, then to 115vYRHjw9uCnXoecs6VzigubMUhmMfcfE, then to 17pgZ4mCRsTwW6D5kHEg92eQM2V9JAUHBS, then to 1GtPbfmp75HvJ2N6r4uRtBozZa3bjJofvw, to 12VTYbiXoRiVKXNyNvrqtAgkAFZewFPAw1, to 1EZmoUo4YorRnNnnyDewHsdBREr6YnMnvm, to 17hPi868CsyvjWHtXjY7NnNbS6QTaDz4FN, to 1Q5JYuxQK5ZmjyAP1CJEJUPU8wUHXByvK3, to 1JxME3VtA9Q4quZHqQFwA6qKdSP1rtVviQ, to 1D2MKZtPs5xZC9cY4fch8msP838KnVgXK9 and and and... Till there only 6 hours were gone. Every transactions was done like sending the big part to an address and a smaller part. A weexchange change address and a weexchange users address. The last transaction where i can say that its most probably my coin that was sent to a change address of weexchange is here: https://blockchain.info/de/address/1PfERfzUJEr4kxzBxtx49GcF4dM2vfGc52 from octobre the 27th. After that i cant say if it went to a weex user or a weex change address. So the coins from my deposit were paid out to weexchange users most probably completely. At least it does not look like the coins were sent to a single address that might be controlled by government. At least not till octobre 27th, 2013. I hope we can find some interesting things from other users addresses.Maybe someone has later deposits where ukyo didnt have the time to use the funds to pay withdraws from weexchange users with. So that it is in the timeframe of "manual withdraws" and the "incident". Lets see if we find something!  We should investigate this. List of weexchange portal addresses the 6.1% were paid out from: 1L5eKEybeeFq9nZYvvokoKrCVGmudY5iwG General Info: Well - the only interesting thing I found with my 3.175% payout was that tracing it back it came from pool mining.
The 386 BTC payouts were done over and over again to a new address so it takes a while to follow it back but it was easy to see and follow.
I take it you weren't able to discern which pool it was? Speculation here; maybe it came from Graeme? Yes, but I can't remember 100% which it was - I think it was BTCGuild But it wasn't Ozcoin. |
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My thought on it is that its not really a difference to the actual system when you take 3 months or so. Its the same fee for you. For the investors its not changing much, for the gamblers nothing. So i think the only big changes are for you and you should decide. I think...
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Another weexchange deposit address from a user that wants to stay anonymous: 1JvJBF59uxkfMqqBxv5RoNCGS92wAnGewL
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Damn... so i thought i will finally be able to trade shares and then Ken comes up with the idea he has to get 106 Bitcoins from ukyo's shares. Judging from the time these shares are bought it will take ages until Ken has his money. Till then it doesnt make sense letting us trade because that instantly would stop his ability to sell these shares at 0.01BTC. Great Situation.
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Yes Doog... you have picked up on my point exactly. I think your idea of taking 0.1% of wagered amount from the investors as each bet is placed is a GREAT idea. Is there any way you can setup a trial run with a counter on the website so we can track investor profits the way they are as opposed to this newly proposed scheme?
I think we're getting somewhere! Thank you very much for taking the time to read my posts.
For what do you need a counter? The house edge is 1% so 1% profit in average for investors. Then 0.1% of each bet is exactly 10% of each bet. Thats exactly adding a fee on the theoretical profitline. And this line is known. So you could even calculate the fee back to the start of JD now. |
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Yes, an account with high losses from a player was sold recently... these losses can be used for investments too and doog wouldnt earn fees for a long time. doog bought the account himself because no one wanted it...
That's not true. I bid on it, but I was outbid by BayAreaCoins. He pretty quickly sold it on for something like twice what he paid for it, too. The account is now earning commission-free profits for its new owner. Didnt notice that. I only remember a statement from you where you wrote that you bought it because you wanted to help him and you have an advantage from it. I would have bought it when i would have seen it early enough too...  No way should you rake bets, unless you completely remove or reduce the house edge.
I think the only way it makes sense is to rake 0.1% of every bet from the bankroll, not from the players. That way instead of getting 10% of profits, I get 10% of expected profits, paid by the investors in real time. It leaves the edge exactly the same for the players, leaves the investors expecting to pay 10% of their profits, but gives me a much more steady income. I no longer have good weeks and bad weeks. All the variance is shifted to the investors rather than me taking 10% of it upon myself. I don't mind either way. I don't feel the need to win when the investors are losing, and don't mind that some weeks my commission is very close to zero, because the good weeks make up for that. But if people think it's fairer for me to take 0.1% of every bet rather than 10% of new profits, I'm happy to do so. We'd have to find a way to make this work with the fact that some investors have over-paid commission already in that they're still making up coins they lost to nakowa. Maybe a weekly rebate until they're back where they should be or some such. That would mean fees to pay when investors make a loss and judging from zipmasters text thats what he wants to avoid because he thinks its harder to grow back to the previous level that way. But its simply not possible to solve what zipmaster wants to solve. There is always a fee and regardless of how you calculate it it will be unfair on times. At the end i dont see why zipmaster is hanging so much on the fee since its only 10% of the PROFIT anyway. I think your suggestion, that you get fees on the fly for each bet, so you earn on the theoretical profitline, is ok. Its no big difference for investors. Though of course that should be valid for the weekly fee only. When people divest then the fee should be calculated according to the profit. With this system you even could get daily payouts without problems. Though i hear already zipmaster that he wants the fee monthly... For me its ok. I really dont think that you are responsible for investors losses or that you should feel responsible. There is no reason to feel guilty having run JD with the mathematically proven Optimum values for investors. Something i would like to see though would be the investors setting their own risk level and the standard risk level is low. It would mean they have even more chance to set to their needs. And no one than the investor can be blamed for what he did then even more. But in no way you are responsible or in debt for investors risks because you used the optimum. It was up to everyone to take that risk and losing is part of it. At the end you or the other investors would pay for it and i dont think thats how investments should work... it works for banks this way but that should be stopped too... |
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Well - the only interesting thing I found with my 3.175% payout was that tracing it back it came from pool mining.
The 386 BTC payouts were done over and over again to a new address so it takes a while to follow it back but it was easy to see and follow.
What about the weexchange deposit address? Anything interesting there? |
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No way should you rake bets, unless you completely remove or reduce the house edge.
As someone who is extremely familiar with casino rake, I can tell you that one of the worst things you can do is to let your fish go broke too fast.
If you begin raking bets and keep a 1% edge, thats exactly what you're doing. In the short term, the site makes more money, but the fish go broke more quickly and thus reducing the total volume of bets executed in the long term. Inherently that will increase variance as fish execute less bets relative to their bankroll. Consequently there will be less people able to bet long term because their effective bankrolls have decreased.
Does anyone want to gamble in an empty casino?
IF you want to start raking bets, then doog should remove himself from taking commission on the site's winnings.
The problem is that the casino and gambling bitcoin dice industry is completely built around the house edge IIRC. to buck this trend could cost you customers, certainly if they believe that they are executing bets with an EV that's more negative than your competitor because of the rake.
So if you start raking bets you better reduce the house edge.
does zipmaster support that?
*facepalm* Sure... JD is short before extinction because players go bankrupt fast. I dont know what data you have but i guess you guess. |
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Do you guys think it's wise to throw away more money at a lawyer, that will probably get you nothing?
Yes, even if nothing is to be gained. Hunting down fraudster to clean up this community, and act as a deterrent to others, is worth it. +1 I lost more than i thought but in order to let scammers know that the bitcoin community has jaws i will invest more to bite him really hard. |
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You should note that not only investment, but player accounts work for this too. As far as i read.
By the way... im interested in buying such account too.
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Guys... there were a lot of people that wrote how many bitcoins they lost at weexchange. I once suggested posting the deposit addresses everyone had at weexchange. I wanted to see if the bitcoins are still in there or when they moved. Shortly after i suggested that ukyo wrote me something like "like you saw... the coins are gone" which means to me the coins arent at the deposit addresses and in the wallet anymore. It can be an important clue to know where they went. When seizing is involved i would await the coins are collected in one place/address. Its different from a normal bank account. Government could hide everything there but the blockchain is publicly visible. Which might give us a hint what happened. So please post your deposit addresses you had at weexchange, maybe we find out how the coins flew...
I will start here. My deposit address was: 1P7tdTzWhpYoV87L4v4gZwhd6mAnT7fiD4 The address is empty now. Even though i see letsdice.com appear there... i never used that website. I believe what happened is that this website is sending one satoshi to used addresses because blockchain.info is posting the name of the website then which means advertising for the domain name. So its pretty sure neither iam nor ukyo used the domain in connection with my deposit address. Ok, when i see what happened with my last deposited bitcoins, around 158 BTC, then they were sent to 1KMmWYbWHQjBZY14hXENGXeb5aMyoQynvg and a small part to 1BDtP3xdCQ1Zj1wJDxLPu8mf1uvuspQ3BU I believe what happened was that ukyo paid out a withdraw request from a weexchange user. The small transaction was a withdraw to a user wallet and the big transactions target is a change address in the weexchange wallet. Weexchange change addresses then are for example: The big BTC-part was sent then from 1KMmWYbWHQjBZY14hXENGXeb5aMyoQynvg is sent to 1BYrnppD62tj2cn1HD32iD6Bv2t9sTESYH, then to 12Nz2KmzVfnsrCK7HVYzw4LLYp4iQtqU4P, then to 115vYRHjw9uCnXoecs6VzigubMUhmMfcfE, then to 17pgZ4mCRsTwW6D5kHEg92eQM2V9JAUHBS, then to 1GtPbfmp75HvJ2N6r4uRtBozZa3bjJofvw, to 12VTYbiXoRiVKXNyNvrqtAgkAFZewFPAw1, to 1EZmoUo4YorRnNnnyDewHsdBREr6YnMnvm, to 17hPi868CsyvjWHtXjY7NnNbS6QTaDz4FN, to 1Q5JYuxQK5ZmjyAP1CJEJUPU8wUHXByvK3, to 1JxME3VtA9Q4quZHqQFwA6qKdSP1rtVviQ, to 1D2MKZtPs5xZC9cY4fch8msP838KnVgXK9 and and and... Till there only 6 hours were gone. Every transactions was done like sending the big part to an address and a smaller part. A weexchange change address and a weexchange users address. The last transaction where i can say that its most probably my coin that was sent to a change address of weexchange is here: https://blockchain.info/de/address/1PfERfzUJEr4kxzBxtx49GcF4dM2vfGc52 from octobre the 27th. After that i cant say if it went to a weex user or a weex change address. So the coins from my deposit were paid out to weexchange users most probably completely. At least it does not look like the coins were sent to a single address that might be controlled by government. At least not till octobre 27th, 2013. I hope we can find some interesting things from other users addresses.Maybe someone has later deposits where ukyo didnt have the time to use the funds to pay withdraws from weexchange users with. So that it is in the timeframe of "manual withdraws" and the "incident". Lets see if we find something! We should investigate this. |
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Maybe there is another exploit for hacking the emailprovider alive? They only need to get the link. Might it be that they have setup a forward email in the gmail account or can read there directly. But since you said you have google auth set for gmail... they must have somehow read the email while they were on the way to gmail? Or maybe check if there are forwardings set in your account.
But im not knowledgeable in the hacking area...
I use keepass since some time and everywhere i have bitcoins or shares i sat up google auth.
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Im in the process of buying a new beamer too. Though this one has too low resolution. Yesterday i got the tip that sony beamers cost less than half of the price in japan than they cost in my home country. I think i will see if i can order them at amazon.jp. Maybe you want to buy a new one too.
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Most probably an internet marketer trying to e-whore for bitcoins... i wonder if someone pays to get "the sexy pics"... |
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No Sebastian, he takes his profit upon divesting OR at the end of the week. Which ever comes first!
From the Invest section:
"Commission is charged when profits are divested, or at midnight (UTC) on Sunday each week, whichever happens sooner."
Now that you mention it though...
Doog, just take your cut when people Divest!!!!
I forgot. But its profit. investment 1000btc week 1 +10 btc -1btc for doog, wallet 1009btc week 2 -9btc 0btc for doog, wallet 1000btc week 3 +10btc 0btc for doog, wallet 1010btc week 4 +10btc -1btc for doog, wallet 1019btc doog has 2btc fee and the investor 1019btc. I dont see that its a problem. Yes, an account with high losses from a player was sold recently... these losses can be used for investments too and doog wouldnt earn fees for a long time. doog bought the account himself because no one wanted it... i would have taken it when i had seen it early enough. |
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Doog, the fact that you take your cut only when we're in positive profit doesn't change anything. Like I explained in my previous post, you can always compound all the betting on the site in such a way that bets are a Win/Lose/Win/Lose sequence where when we win we are always in positive profit and the same exact argument applies. Your cut reduces the investors upside potential while leaving them vulnerable to the full extent of the downside swings.
The probability distribution of possible investor profits over time is a spreading bell curve whose center increases following the 1% line. At time t=0 the probability distribution is a very tight peaked curve (a delta function) around the starting profit. As time proceeds the center of this curve moves to higher and higher profits following the 1% line, representing the house edge, but also spreads out due to the variance of the betting happening on the site. As time proceeds, the chances of a swing to higher/lower than expected profit increases.
Now, your taking the cut simply when we are in positive profit limits the extent of the upside swings to the invstor profits while keeping the downside swings intact. Over time the downside swings become statistically more and more likely for investors. Ideally, if anything, you should be taking a cut of the running average of the profit so as to be sure that you're taxing the true wins of the house edge.
Let me show an example to make this clear. Suppose that house profit is at its historical maximum (which you have already taxed) and a player comes in to perform 2 50% 100 BTC bets spread out one week apart from each other.
The outcomes are as follows:
1) Player wins both of them with probability (p=0.25) thus resulting investor profit loss of 2*(-98)=-196
2) " loses " " profit win of 200-20=180
3) Player wins the first and loses the second (p=0.25) with resulting investor profit win of 2-0.2= 1.8
4) Player loses the first and wins the second (p=0.25) " " profit loss (100-10)-98 = -8
The EV of these two gambles is then:
EV=0.25*(-196+180+1.8-8)=-22BTC
The investors can expect to lose 22 BTC!!!!
Please Doog, I'm not here to bust your balls, lets think really hard about this. Limiting the investor upside is very dangerous. Especially when whales come around to play. We just witnessed a 1400 BTC downside swing to the profits this week. Assuming that Lika and Ben came to gamble the same amount of BTC next week, we the investors can expect an overall loss to our profits because you took your cut last week when we were at a max. As time goes on our downside risk becomes progressively larger and larger.
Please consider fees or, at the very, least taking a cut only out of the moving average of the profit (taken, say, over a month) as opposed to positive winnings.
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Are you an investor at all? If so why didnt you find that dooglus is only taking his fee when divesting? And he wont take a double fee. So when you are 10 profit, back to 0 and back to 10 profit he still only takes the fee for 10 profit once. |
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Ukyo did no such thing.
Should your lately use of your username ukyo in the third person worry us?
The things I am working on are not primarily code. That, as you said, would be fast and easy and something solely reliant on my efforts which means I could fulyl control how fast that could happen.
This issue is that we are working with others who have their own schedules and have a todo list that mostly requires previous steps completed before moving onto the next.
And no, Graet is not an owner, just a Director.
And Graet isnt saying anything either. Danny either. Strange. So its not coding only. It sounds like investigations going on. Maybe a thievery or scam happened and they seized all funds because bitfunder was a grey area anyway. Didnt you tell them that every bitcoin of these funds belong to the users of weexchange and arent weexchange/bitfunder funds? I wonder if they can seize all funds only because one foul apple was in it. I read your answer that its quite possible that 2 months arent enough. Since you always claim its out of your range whats happening, you say its something legal and that coding wouldnt be the problem i think it has to be some screwed investigation. Does weexchange have a legal representation? A lawyer? If so could you send me the address via pm? If its an investigation then you surely need one. I dont say that i will sue you now. But i would try contacting this way. This all praised forum lawyer didnt get back to me till now. I dont know what this says. |
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Sebastian... it's a problem because, depending on how players are betting, the odds are not in our favor. The house edge doesn't mathematically make us a profit in the long term if Doog takes the 10% cut and players bet on average at lower than 90% chance of winning.
Thats not correct. Dooglus is taking 10% of the profits only. It doesnt change the chance of winning at all. |
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zipmaster... dooglus dont need a flat fee. There is already a flat fee. Its mathematically proven that dooglus over time will get his share. If its not hard for investors when a week is negative and the next week gets the profit from last week then dooglus gets the same. I dont see why its a problem. Its not a problem for me too that profits arent linear...
By the way... if someone have doge coins you might check the doge price... i sold them now for a nice profit. At doge dice i had no movement and came out with a small profit only. But i sold since i dont trust that doge will keep that price or will even go higher.
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How slow is cryptsy? I wait for a bitcoin withdraw since hours.
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