It was stated that as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, all fees will go to ICN holders.
Once they will burn ICO money, profits will first be used for operational costs and the rest will be paid as dividends.
Since ~80% of ICNP profits go back to Iconomi, I don't expect Iconomi to be short for operational funds any time soon
I missed this. Link? "How much is distributed as dividends to ICN token holders? ICN token holders receive everything, after the operational costs of the service operator have been subtracted. Please note that we will be using the capital raised during the ICO for coverage of operational costs and will not participate in profit sharing as long as there are ICO funds left over." https://ico.iconomi.net/faqThat says they won't participate in profit sharing as long as there are ICO funds remaining. The wording is ambiguous, but the least favourable interpretation seems to be "there won't be any dividends until the ICO fund runs out". I.e. no profits will be shared until that time. Can you clear that up at all? How are you reading it? I don't see anything ambiguous about " Please note that we will be using the capital raised during the ICO for coverage of operational costs and will not participate in profit sharing as long as there are ICO funds left over" Profit sharing=dividends I don't know why we have so much discussion around dividends. There is still time for that. My point is that it says they will NOT share profits as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, but you seem to be reading it differently. If they say they will NOT do something, why are you reading it as the opposite? It doesn't say "as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, all fees will go to ICN holders", which is what you said. I am asking you to clarify your interpretation for me. I will try one more time.. I don't know where you take your point it says they will NOT share profits as long as Iconomi have enough funds It is clearly stated in FAQ "we will be using the capital raised during the ICO for coverage of operational costs and will not participate in profit sharing as long as there are ICO funds left over" How is that different than "as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, all fees will go to ICN holders"? It's different because they say they will NOT be doing the thing which you said they WILL be doing. If I said I will not be giving you an ice cream, would you read that as "Mendeleev said he's giving me an ice cream"? I am open to having it explained better, but so far you are just repeating the same words without explanation. How do you read "we will not participate in profit sharing" as "all fees go to ICN holders"? Are you reading it as them saying they will personally not take a profit? Which could be one definition of "participate" (hence the ambiguity I mentioned) I don't mean to frustrate you. If you can't explain your interpretation any better, I may ask one of the team to clarify at a later date. Another point - are they saying that as long as there are ICO funds remaining, that fees will INITIALLY be split only among the original 85M ICO tokens bought by non devs, AND ONLY LATER split among all 100M ICN tokens (and thus, the devs) only when ICO funds run out? $6M of ICO funds for ICONOMI ops will last a long time, but if they leave lots of ICNP profit locked up for long periods of time before cashout, they could possible have a real cash flow problem once they depend only on the OPM fee dividends from 15M ICN for ICONOMI operating expenses. I would hate to see a need for cash flow become a consideration for when ICONOMI does an ICNP profit cashout.... |
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I honestly don't understand why there is not zero liquidity at Kraken. You have to be a complete idiot to sell any ICN you currently have.
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It was stated that as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, all fees will go to ICN holders.
Once they will burn ICO money, profits will first be used for operational costs and the rest will be paid as dividends.
Since ~80% of ICNP profits go back to Iconomi, I don't expect Iconomi to be short for operational funds any time soon
I missed this. Link? "How much is distributed as dividends to ICN token holders? ICN token holders receive everything, after the operational costs of the service operator have been subtracted. Please note that we will be using the capital raised during the ICO for coverage of operational costs and will not participate in profit sharing as long as there are ICO funds left over." https://ico.iconomi.net/faqWow. I keep learning. First ICN price will go up like a rocket based on unrealized, undistributed profits from ICNX / ICNP, and now effectively 100% distribution of OFM fees as dividends until ICO funds run out. I'll edit my post above. Mind blown. Hodl ^ 2. |
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It was stated that as long as Iconomi have enough funds from ICO money for daily operations, all fees will go to ICN holders.
Once they will burn ICO money, profits will first be used for operational costs and the rest will be paid as dividends.
Since ~80% of ICNP profits go back to Iconomi, I don't expect Iconomi to be short for operational funds any time soon
I missed this. The word "fees" is mentioned exactly once in the Whitepaper, and not in this context. Link? |
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is the Dividends start paying on 28/12?
Or the project start to launch and by weekly dividends, do they mean every week? Or Bi week?
Thanks!
On December 28 ICONOMI launches the OFM trading platform and the ICNX fund. OFM will then have to generate fees and the ICNX fund will have to generate profits to create a dividend pool. Also, the already-operating ICNP fund also needs time to generate profits. Generating these fees and profits will take weeks or maybe months to happen after the December 28 milestone. Once fees and profits begin to flow routinely to the dividend pool, those dividends will be disbursed to ICN holders on a weekly basis. And remember, ICN is a zero-inflation token and not a mined inflationary coin. There's only 100M ICN tokens, ever, that will be paying dividends. ICN price has gone from $0.1257 USD per ICN at launch on Sept 29 to $0.2188 today - an appreciation in value of 75% in less than 90 days. Get your ICN now at Kraken while they are still cheap. |
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I don't expect dividends to be significant until OFM platform is launched and starts generating fees.
Estimated Weekly revenue of trading platforms (24 hour volume × trading fee × 7 days):
Bittrex: (0.25% fee): $12k
Bitstamp: (0.20% fee): $35k
Poloniex: (0.35% fee): $203k
Optimistic scenario is OFM platform starts generating as much revenue as Poloniex. Then 1k ICN would rake in a massive $2.03 per week in dividends.
So if OFM gets as big as Poloniex, your "massive" $2.03 per 1K ICN is $105.56 per year. For a $0.1257 * 1000 = $125.70 ICO investment, your OFM=Poloniex scenario would be a fantastic ongoing annual return on tokens you continue to hold which would become worth A LOT more than you originally paid for them - whether or not you bought them originally at ICO, or buy them on the cheap at Kraken NOW. Oh, and your analysis doesn't include any additional dividends on profits generated by ICNX or ICNP. So there's THAT. ICONOMI. So many ways to make money. Hodl. |
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There are some crazy theories and assumptions based on faulty or just too little information about not only ARK but the Lisk communities inner workings, so I decided to give a quick overview of how the ARK team has formed and why. I tried to make it as factual as possible, correct me if you see a factual mistake.
At the very beginning of Lisk when the ICO just begun and people started to gather in Lisk Chat, malreynolds organized a group of people called Trusted Delegates. The TDs original goal was to find trustworthy Lisk supporters to run the Lisk delegate nodes. The initial the main effort was to exlude sockpuppets, people trying to run multiple delegates. For this reason the initial TD members were those with history on BCT and/or meaningful continuous involvement in Lisk chat. The group formed and as these things go, it got more organized, rules and guildelines were made, members supported each other, some members become inactive while others joined, a community was forged (pun intended).
And what an active community it was and still is. The private channel had many times the activity of all of the public channels combined, because it was such a good group of people that we all fealt comfortable talking in there even on subject that belonged to the public channels. Max, Oliver, Joel, isabella and fixcrypt were also in the channel for many months. They only decided to exclude themselves later on when we started concentrating on voting power because they felt -and rightly so- that discussion about our voting strategies should not include them.
This group stayed strong long after forging delays were announced throught the closing of the private channels in Lisk chat (our fault, sorry, we should have been more active in public channels), and remained very active, rebranded to GDT (Global Delegate Team).
The beginning of ARK were just some off and on brainstorming session on a remote slack channel (#sharktank, I think), that slowly grown by then (again) including fixcrypt who just parted ways from Lisk. Anyone from GDT was welcome to participate and many did. A new Slack was created with open invitations to all GDT members and those who joined now known as the ARK Crew, I think it was almost 50 members. Discussion continued and the most active from these group, those who at the time had the interest and the time to actively work on a new project became the Ark Founding Team that has 25 members.
So we didn't built such a big team from nothing, but formed from an already select and battle tested larger group. We didn't even assign former roles to each other we just contributed wherever we felt we could make the most of our abilities. We weren't all large holders who wanted to take over, or replace Lisk. We just had an idea in our daily interactions and we had the will, the time and energy to make it into a reality.
Today GDT is still by far the largest and best organized group in the Lisk community and still supports Lisk and includes most of the people who long time supporters, made tools for Lisk, run it's testnet and mainnet delegates.
ARK members are still GDT members (amongst the most active members in fact), we are just sub group with a side project. Others has other involvement outside of Lisk, ours just more noticable being a Lisk fork and because of fixcrypt as a developer.
So any claims that ARK tries to overtake, replace, etc Lisk is just silly. Harming Lisk would be harming ourselves. Of course if you ask various members the exact interpretation of this statement may vary because we have different views on Lisk after 8 months of involvement, but that's just shows that ARK as a group has no agenda for or against Lisk. Individual members...you will have to ask them personally.
Please tell me more  nice story. No a whole lot else other than Max forced us to open our private room up to the public because like Vega said, our private room in the main lisk rocket chat that had x5 to x10 times the amount of talking as the public rooms at the rocket chat. Then one day out of the blue, we were told that we can't have any private voting alliance rooms anymore in their rocket chat. No if ands or butts, just nilly willy opened the room to the public so we all left and created our own private slack. Then the rocket chat died for basically months until just recently when max announced forging the DAY of the start of our TEC. We were just early to see the delays in Lisk because basically we've heard it from them almost since day one. You know without Fixcrypt, lisk mainnet would basically not have launched on time, and they basically kicked him from the group because of the same reason they can't find a developer right now, they don't want to pay what they need for the quality of coder they'll receive. I agree this is an accurate timeline. I am very proud of being in the TD and GDT groups - they are great people. Altho I am in the minority of GDT members who did not go forward into ARK (just too busy to keep up!) I certainly wish ARK well and think it is a worthwhile effort. That's why I agreed to escrow the ARK funds. My payment for that will be in ARK, which I will hodl. So even tho I am not a dev, I am a stakeholder. GO ARK !!! |
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that 59 BTC sell wall is a joke. I also don't believe it is real
Edit: the wall is actually 30 BTC
28 BTC gets you to 0.000299 and 59 BTC gets you to 0.000300. You haven't eaten thru the wall at 28 BTC; you have just reached the bottom of the wall at that point. yeah, I meant the sell order @300K Ah, I see what you are saying now. Yes, we are probably closer to 0.0003X than 28 BTC in sell orders. I agree. |
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that 59 BTC sell wall is a joke. I also don't believe it is real
Edit: the wall is actually 30 BTC
28 BTC gets you to 0.000299 and 59 BTC gets you to 0.000300. You haven't eaten thru the wall at 28 BTC; you have just reached the bottom of the wall at that point. |
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ICONOMI MOON....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Could be. Only a 13% rise in current ICN prices will put us at 0.0003X territory.  |
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...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week. ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought. |
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whether fund ICO have reached?
short answer, yes. Long answer, https://tec.ark.io/ shows only 73% of the original funding goal has been met with 17 hours to go. My understanding is that ARK plans to launch with current funds raised and offer a refund opportunity to investors if the original goal not met by the end of ICO. Note that I am not a member of the ARK team and the statement above should be confirmed by official ARK leadership. For those who do not know me, I am one of three escrow agents (along with Minerjones and Blazed) for ARK's Bitcoin donation account at https://blockchain.info/address/3A8TEQ9dNPnJyG3BHyNERPbgZpE5DqvFeY , and the sole escrow agent for the ARK's Lisk donation account at https://explorer.lisk.io/address/9569486828221897676L . ARK devs cannot access or move any Bitcoin (currently approx $150K) without the participation of either Minerjones, Blazed or myself. ARK devs cannot access or move any Lisk (currently approx $800K) without my participation. I am not a member of the ARK core dev team, although I consider them to be my friends. My primary responsibility is to look out for investor interests in the ARK ICO process. If ARK does not reach 100% threshhold at http://tec.ark.io by the end of ICO in 17 hours then I will not release any Lisk funds to ARK until all requested investor refunds, if any, have been processed. |
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To start a different discussion, everybody should read this article. It has some significant implications about demands for cryptocurrencies among fiat investors and therefore the demand for ICONOMI services. http://theantimedia.org/cash-no-longer-king/ |
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the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there. "Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"Mal, this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before. But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ... If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees. But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders. And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH... Clear? best, Jaka Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot. You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct? If this is correct, it is a big deal. Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL ! |
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Can anyone explain how dividends are made exactly?
Icojaka already wrote this few post back... i will coppy his post for you once mmre: Regarding dividends... dividends are distribution of profits. In order to have profits, ICONOMI must first launch its products and generate revenue. By the end of this year we will launch two investment funds (ICONOMI.index and ICONOMI.performance)... This is where first fees will come from, but we expect profits to seriously ramp up later in 2017 when full OFM platform launches with many fund managers running their respective funds... Regarding their distribution there should be no fear - we will announce the block height of distribution well in advance... So there will be plenty of time to move your ICN tokens to a wallet for which you control private key, or to an exchange that will support eth dividend redistribution... We are a long term business not pump and dump, so do not expect dividends on 1st of January or any time very soon... Re "ICONOMI wallet"... as answered in our recent AMA ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5ghrp5/askmeanything_icnx_and_iconomiindex_edition/) we will enable ICN deposits on our upcoming platform early next year. Investors will be able to securely store ICN tokens with us (multisig cold wallets)... Okay so I mean the fees that are collected, do they market sell ICN then market buy ETH to distribute? Are the coins exchanges into ETH like DAO could therefore the coins are burned? The first option would be awful for ICN traders. Don't understand the question. How are you obtaining the ETH that is going to pay out the dividends? |
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the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there. "Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?" |
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Can anyone explain how dividends are made exactly?
Icojaka already wrote this few post back... i will coppy his post for you once mmre: Regarding dividends... dividends are distribution of profits. In order to have profits, ICONOMI must first launch its products and generate revenue. By the end of this year we will launch two investment funds (ICONOMI.index and ICONOMI.performance)... This is where first fees will come from, but we expect profits to seriously ramp up later in 2017 when full OFM platform launches with many fund managers running their respective funds... Okay so I mean the fees that are collected, do they market sell ICN then market buy ETH to distribute? Are the coins exchanges into ETH like DAO could therefore the coins are burned? The first option would be awful for ICN traders. best thing is to just read the FAQ and whitepaper, then ask some specific questions on the sub reddit I did both of that but I didn't get a clear answer from the paper or reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5gyhkk/dividends_question/) I'm not trying to spread FUD but that answer kind of needs to be clear for traders/investors. I have tried to get specific details on this aspect of ICNP dividends over a month ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5bfdtw/icnp_questions/"Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"You can read Jani's answers at the above link. I thought his answers were a little vague. I still think this question needs to be addressed in more detail. |
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I will sell only in case of emergency else will keep holding my tokens as long as I can keep them. I can only hope all this waiting will bring me huge profit. I am not really in hurry and want to let this project enough time to stabilize and grow well. These chances are rare to make entry in such thing with huge potential. There is something special in this project.
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Air. Gapped. Computer. That's where my private keys to ICONOMI are, and where yours should be, too. |
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