Well, I looked up the prices for some of the components, and they would be extremely cheap to make. Something like $2 for the NFC chip and $5 to $10 for the processor and memory. Whole device may end up costing less than $15, and that's for buying parts one at a time. Downside is that it would still need NFC terminals at cash registers, and until Google Wallet propagates their system, that won't go anywhere. I see RFID readers on card swipe terminals everywhere now, but I suspect they are receive only, and the keyfob would require receiving a transaction to sign.
As for Gox, maybe once they get their financial licences, it'll be easier for them to get VISAs


I think he's just an entrepreneurial type. I fully understand, since although I'm still doing the 9 to 5, I also have a lot of ideas and really want to go out there to try them out. Bitcoin is so new and unexplored that there still are a lot of possibilities in it. Look at Gox; it started as a magic the gathering card exchange running on a single computer in some guy's basement, and is now an international business with over $10,000,000 in annual revenue. I'm very certain that Bitcoin still has a lot of similar opportunities. As for the other stuff, how else do you learn if not by asking questions and bouncing ideas off of others? I actually find his posts wildly entertaining, since even if what he says is completely bonkers, it starts a discussion, and people who point out mistakes in the idea still end up teaching me things I likely wouldn't have even thought of myself.

Simple swipes. Same as credit cards. Even actual credit cards that are loaded with Bitcoin and charge the same fees to begin with if we must. People will accept the familiar with revolutionary backbone they don't have to think about way easier than a totally new paradigm change. That's why I was thinking just a dumb swipable keyfob, or even a visa loaded with Bitcoin on some centralised bank service (wasn't MtGox planning on having VISA card?) instead of smartphones or smart cards with keypads and screens.

As for the chat, we just talked about how stuff is going. I was mainly interested in how he was doing, how his school was going (he just finished high school), whether he was doing ok (didn't seem to have emotional issues), and stuff like that, followed by some "where are you from" when he heard my accent, and some reminiscing on old forum discussions. Normal people stuff.

I have mentioned this on this forum before:

BlackBerry captured the business PDA market by advertising their devices as pagers capable of sending longer page texts, not as the first portable wireless e-mail devices that they actually were, because back in the 90's, "WTF is an e-mail?"

TiVo advertised their devices as revolutionary digital video recorders with hard drives, that revolutionize the way we watch TV by recording things digitally, and allowing us to timeshift live programming. TiVo has pretty much always been near dead because, "WTF is a digital video recorder with timeshift?" Had they advertised themselves as a digital VCR you didn't need to rewind, things may very likely have been different.

This is a marketing and development lesson that Bitcoin MUST heed if it wants any chance at addoption.

(Thank you UMCP MBA program for this, and many other insights)

Just a few minor quirks about this:

* If you have no problems with monopolies, you should have no problems with private sector unions. All they are are human resource companies that sell resources innthe same way that any other company would. The resources in this case being labor. One thing against them though is that they can sometimes bully other business and employees, which SHOULD be treated as unfair business practices or racketeering, but sadly isn't. Either way, unions still fit into the free market ideal.

* Government employees getting paid higher salaries is not true. On average government employees earn higher salaries than private sector, but that's because ALL government positions are professional white collar type, like accounting, research, management, etc. All jobs like cafeteria work, cleaning, custodial, etc have been outsourced by government to local business. And the average of private sector jobs includes those low level blue collar jobs. So in essence, the statistics that show government workers make more than private sector are comparing group consisting mainly of office professionals to a group that's full of McDonald's and Wal-Mart workers. If you compare private office workers to government office workers, the salaries are about the same, and many government jobs actually pay less. At my current job, the top salary for my profession is maybe half of what I can get in the private sector (I'll start looking soon as I'm done with my MBA). Caveat:I do believe fully that on average private sector employees work much more and harder than public sector employees, since public sector atmosphere is more relaxed, and it's harder to get fired. In that sense, public sector employees get paid more for the work produced than private sector ones.

Yes

I say let the ignorant morons let themselves be known publicly, instead of having them brood and plot in secret.

Getting a bunch of people together and watching YouTube videos on a common screen (usually looks like a tv) was a popular pastime on SecondLife. Different people would show the weird quirky videos they found online, shared music, or watched bootleg anime episodes together. It's more fun to share and watch with others.

I hope not all of it is just nuts. Frankly, I would guess the majority of this forum is into just boobs.

So, um, what was the problem with the idea of having one simple keyfob-sized device with one button, whose only function is to sign transactions pushed to it when it's swiped, without giving out the private key?

Amount is displayed at the cash register/terminal. At least in this case, if the store displays 8BTC and charges 80, you have an irrefutable, time stamped record that this money was spent at this time, and know who swindled you.

And, again, I'm going for ease of use before cost. Small displays and buttons will be a problem for people with poor eyesight, shaky or thick fingers, or with gloves, and they take time to type in amounts (especially if Bitcoin rises in value, and you have to type 0.00473440 or something). With a swipe all you do is confirm the price on the cash register and swipe.

Will do! Left it alone for a day or two just so I can come back and re-read it with a fresh perspective.

I was aiming for the simplest, and thus cheapest option. If NFC terminals only need a software plugin for this to work, something like a keyfob without any display or buttons would be way cheaper to mass produce. Also, the discussion was about making this as easy as using credit cards. Swiping a keyfob once or twice is much simpler than typing out amounts on tiny buttons.
Plus having a slightly bulkier device attached to the keychain means there won't be expensive size restrictions requiring more expensive tiny components. I agree, getting the infrastructure in place is the biggest hurdle, but getting cheap prototypes that don't require hundreds per device just for a proof of concept would be important, too.

Just talked to a friend of mine who's more familiar with cryptography, and apparently something like this is possible. The keyfob would have to store the public and private keys, be able to receive NFC data as well as send it, and be able to sign transactions:

Sales terminal comes up with the amount.
Swiping the keyfob transmits the public address to the terminal.
Terminal creates a transaction with the public address and the amount, displaying the transaction (and checking if enough funds are available).
Customer verifies the amount, and swipes the keyfob again.
Terminal uploads the newly created transaction to the keyfob, the keyfob signs it with the private key, and transmits the signed transaction back to the terminal.
Terminal uploads the transaction to the Bitcoin network.

A physical button on the keyfob that you need to press to transmit would keep it secure, and conserve battery power. No need for displays or other buttons. hopefully something that has a tiny amount of flash, just enough CPU power to sign keys,  and an NFC transmitter/receiver won't be too costly.
Comments?

No. I want to give ample time for people to review.

If you are adding a private key with all the transactions to your wallet, yes. If all you're doing is signing the public key with a private key, then no, all you need to do is sign the key and broadcast the transaction. You don't even need a copy of the blockchain.

I wonder if it's possible to sign a transaction on a keyfob or some similar small NFC device, without the terminal that's transmitting the transaction getting a copy of the private key? If yes, maybe the device could be something like the pic below with a button, so the terminal would display the amount, and if you agree, you hold down the button, bring the keyfob up to the terminal, the device signs the public address with the private key and amount, and the terminal only broadcasts the signed transaction without ever seeing the private key.



I have a feeling my lack of understanding of cryptography means I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But... he had video   

Finally worked. Didn't notice the big green "Hang Out" button

Don't know how this is supposed to work. Never used Hangouts before. Is there a place to type text or see who's around?

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards. Short of having a pre-loaded debit card serviced by some entity in the exact same way as banks do with fiat now, I really can't see how this can work. I do wish it could though.