I am not interested in this kind of discussion. You're generally not interested into admitting you're wrong. You can't accept another mindset. I wasn't interested into talking to such person, but hey, at least I tried. When I come to a store, I am not there to "admit" something. I am there to ask a salesman about a particular product to find out whether the price on the product is reasonable. Here, I also ask about a product - bitcoin. And your answer is: "You're paying any amount of dollars to use a currency that is different in character." Which is as stupid as the following answer by salesman: "You're paying any amount of dollars to use a product that is different in character." |
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Can you answer the question?
Open your online banking app and you will see the same useless numbers which are also of intangible nature, cannot be eaten, driven, turned into jewelry, etc. These numbers are nothing more than pixels on a screen. You don't need them actually because they by themselves have zero "utilization capacity." However, you for some reason keep buying them and keep going to your job to earn more useless digits. The real reason is that you don't want money, you want products, goods, services, things of real utilization capacity, which the only way to acquire is with useless digits you previously earned with blood and sweat. Bitcoin is no different from any other money in this regard, it is useless as a product but still can be exchanged for real products. The only reason people wish to buy bitcoin is that it has a greater potential than fiat money to be exchanged for more goods and services in the future. If you for some reason don't want to wait, if you don't want to defer consumption for the sake of more consumption in the future, you don't need Bitcoin, just keep using fiat money that is perfectly designed for immediate gratification of your needs. It's all about your preferences and your mindset. Numbers on my bank account are not useless because banks and borrowers are liable to use them to liquidate the isued loans. Every number in someone's bank account is someone else's loan. And loans need to be payd. The banks, via borrowers, withdraw numbers from people's banking accounts literally every minute and in that way pay the last number holders goods, services or labour of the borrowers. With new loans numbers are put back on people's accounts and the whole process repeats itself. Bitcoins are never withdrawan from people's accounts by the issuer. They always exist in people's accounts/wallets. Meaning, bitcoin circulates in the market like gold. But unlike gold, it's literally useless. All people can do with it is watching it on the screen in the form of a number. So, I am still waiting for the answer to my questions. Why would I pay you $38,000 for watching a number on the screen. |
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So, why would I pay $38,000 only to get the ability to watch number 1 on the screen?
To sell it for $100k? What kind of a dumb question is this? Are you stewpid? You talk all that crap about finance and you don't know the basics of finance which is buying low and selling high? Read a book you ignorant fool. Stock Investing For Dummies Cheat SheetSo, if I ask you, why would I pay a $1M for a product, your answer would be: "to sell it for $2M. Well, I have no psychic powers. I am simply asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for a particular product. Why are some people paying 1 million for a bugatti if they can have an audi cheaper? Why do they pay more for a lambo that uses audi parts than for an audi? Why people pay more for a bitcoin where they could have bitcoin cash for cheaper? Think about it. You demand answers to be pushed down your throat instead of using your brain and coming up with them by yourself. Well, people are buying a Bugatti because they are able to utilize it. That's why cars exist in the the market in the first place. Because they have utilization capacity - they are able to be driven. The price then depends on how big this capacity is. So, people are not buying cars because they are tradable. Everything on the market is tradable by definition. And everything that is tradable is by definition means of exchange. You can't say: "a Bugatti costs $1M because it's tradable". That's stupid. It's the utilization capacity that matters. This is true for everything that is in the market. When buyers are checking a product they basically check its utilization capacity. Utilization capacity of a security is how much value will the last holder of a security get from the issuer at the security withdrawal from the market. If for e.g. a bond issuer offers $1,000 face value that's the utilization capacity and the market price will be around that level. No one will pay you $1M for a bond with $1,0000 face value. We know that bitcoin issuer/issuers don't withdraw bitcoin from the market to give something to the last bitcoin holders. So, bitcoin has zero utilization capacity in that sense. Bitcoin is not a security like bonds, stocks or fiat currencies are. Which means that bitcoin must have utilization capacity the same as economic goods have. And in bitcoin, this utilization capacity is the ability to be watched on the screen. It is not the ability to be driven, eaten, turned into energy or jewelry, etc. It's simply the ability to be watched. What I am asking is why would I pay $38,000 for that? People in this topic are ignoring this question. But instead, they repeat, in various ways, that bitcoin has generic feature of all things that exist on the market, that it is "tradable", that it is a "means of exchange", etc. Or they say bitcoin is easy to store and transfer. Well, a needle is tradable the same as a Bugatti. The needle is easier to store and transfer than a Bugatti. But would you trade the latter for the former? So, what I am interested to know is why would I give you a Bugatti for a needle? Why would I give you a thing with a huge utilization capacity for a thing with immensely small utilization capacity? Why would I give you a Bugatti for number "50"? Can you answer the question? |
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If I buy a government bond on the market I didn't redeem that bond. Only the government can do that by paying me the face value of the bond. I see that you lack basic knowledge about finance. You keep thinking in terms of government's bonds. Stop it. The videos you've mentioned have no relation with the questions you're making here. You're asking “ why would I want to buy a number”, I'm telling you that this number can be used to exchange stuff; it's a medium of exchange. There are people who find it useful. Focus on this statement. Redeemable means able to be bought back by the issuer. It doesn't mean able to be traded. No, it also means able to be traded: gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment. They are securities. Bitcoin is a number. By the same reasoning, gold is also a dead rock. Yes, you can make jewelry, but what's the point of jewelry if you don't care about shiny necklaces? What if you don't care about electronics? What if you don't care about medicine and dentistry? Guess what: Some people do. Same goes for Bitcoin. Some people are satisfied by using it as a currency, because it has perfect characteristics. The fact that you're seeing it just as a number doesn't make that false. Do we agree that if two individuals find it satisfactory, it instantly gains value? (Whether that's personal or market value) Well, this is exactly what I am doing. Trying to exchange stuff. You want $38,000 dollars from me. And what you offer me in return is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. I am asking why would I gave you that much money for such an ability. Your answer is because this number is amedium of exchange. This is pretty irrational answer given that "a medium of exchange" is just a generic phrase. It's like asking a salesman about the box that has $10,000 price on it, and he answers: : that's a product. "A product" is just a generic phrase. The same thing is saying that something is "money", "currency", "digital gold", whatever. What I want to know is what utilization capacity will I get for my dollars? Dollars, which gave me the right to collaterals, goods, services, or labour of the borrowers, as explained in the above linked videos. So, we are trying to exchange stuff. And I am asking you: what utilization capacity do you offer me for my dollars? What is your answer? |
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Bank notes or numbers on my banking account secure the capital that I invested in them because the borrowers are forced, via collateral, to use these notes or numbers to repay their loans.
In a similar way, blockchain secure all the bitcoin transactions. The bank notes can be printed by the government making its value less with more increase in supply but in case of bitcoin, its value will keep on increasing because of its limited supply. Think if you hold 1000$ in dollar and 1000$ in bitcoin (which you call numbers) from 2010, you would have become millionaire by now. This is the potential of bitcoin which you are repeatedly ignoring. Why would I care for someone's transactions? Why would I fantasize about being a millionaire? I only asked two simple questions. Can you answer them please? |
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ok.. this guy is being arrogently ignorant. last time, just for fun you are not buying the ability to watch a number. you are buying a medium of exchange that has many features and benefits that has a cost. that cost is somewhere between $35-$85k right now depending on how available it is for you to get, either o-t-c, market or mining. is a deciding factor of convenience, ability and time it requires to get 1btc for the different methods. EG if you live in kazahkstan you could probably find a way to get it for $37k instead of the market price of $39k EG if you live in germany you wont want to get it from mining at $80k+, so instead prefer the market price of $39k but no where, no place, no way can you get bitcoin for $2 . so the value of bitcoin is not $2 near everyone is willing to sell for atleast $35k. and make profit if they sell for more. its not like there are 2 people rolling 14,000 dice each where by they both get a random number. of meaningless. each. and then agree on a middle. instead its based on acquisition costs. that value between a current value window of $35k-$85k where diffferent regions have different price points. where some can buy it real cheap vs other places where its at a bit of a premium to other methods of acquiring the reason they want it in the first place is a multitude of reasons. the way that its a currency that offers different features that banks dont the way that its a currency that offers different less restrictions than banks do how you can hand it to another owner without needing to explain reasons how you can buy things with it how you can be the sole controller of transfers how it is irreversible how its immutable how it does not rely on government involvement how its deflationary, to hedge against inflation you can treat it like a 'trust' without having to get a solicitor/lawyer to draw up 'trust documents' you can use it like an off-shore tax shelter. store value without having to do any banking shuffling keep it as a pension pot or assign it as inheritance without having to do complex Will's or contracts .. and so on There's nothing false. Redeemable means able to be bought back by the issuer. It doesn't mean able to be traded. If I buy a government bond on the market I didn't redeem that bond. Only the government can do that by paying me the face value of the bond.
here is the thing though.. take zimbabwe.. having a 1trillion Z$ is redeemable for?? nothing now people in zimbabwe dont even use zimbabwe dollar. it broke. its finito in the 1900's a US $10 bank note could buy 75 loaves of bread. i guarantee you if you handed in a $10 bank note they would not redeem it for something that can buy you 75 loaves of bread they have not secured value, they are not liable to you for 75 loaves of bread per $10 bank note all you would get is another more crisp fresh smelling $10 note. which can only buy you the same 4 bread loaf value as today if you hold it for 10 years. i guarantee you, you wont be able to buy more then 3 loaves of bread with it. at best/worse you might decide to accept 1000 copper heavy coins. hoping to sell it for scrap for equivalent of 8 loaves of value(at best) but thats with the hassle of then trying to get someone to convert the scrap metal for value equivalent to loaves of bread, at scrap metal value but government/banks are not securing value or liable to you for the 75 loaf value of the past. nor are they securing or made liable to always give you 4 loaves of bread value for bank notes held today, in the future the serial number of a trillion zimbabwe dollar bank note you admire so much as 'security' is worth not even a square millimetre of a single sheet of toilet paper.. meaning a trillion Zdollar bank note is not even worth wiping your ass with it. yet 1btc (of many) that i got in 2012, which could get me 3loaves of bread, can now get me 15,600 loaves of bread. because deflation is better than inflation. i also used some coin to do trades, to secure funds for pension, some inheritance to nephews, and to pass funds through customs without having to hold a debit card or paper cash on me when travelling.. heck it even paid for the ticket and hotel... i also paid rent with it, bought food with it. furniture and loads of other things, heck a couple evenings a week, when people complain that my words are not grammatically precise, is because of a nice bottle of whiskey paid for in btc Hahaha. It is actually you who is being arrogently ignorant. The fact is this. After buying bitcoin I literally am only able to watch a number. There's nothing to eat, wear, drink, drive ... There's nothing to use as jewelry or energy. There's no entity with the liability to return me the capital I invested in it. There's only a number that I am able to watch. Now, you can call this ability "a medium of exchange" or "currency". You can say it has many features and benefits. You can talk about availability, irreversibility, immutability, costs of mining, someone's profit, inflation, deflation, government, pension ... whatever. But still, after paying $38,000 I am only able to watch a number on the screen. That's all I got. I cannot redeem that number at the issuer. I cannot use it for consumption. I cannot use it as an intermediate good. Nothing. All I can do is to watch it like pictures are watched. No matter how many fancy concepts you mention. No matter how many fancy words you use. No matter what you say and do, this fact won't change. So, I am not interested in your philosophical rants. The only thing I am interested in is the answer to a simple question: why would I pay $38,000 only to be able to watch number on the screen? |
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Winning and non-winning lottery tickets may be one of the worst ways to analogize USD with Bitcoin. May I assume you've made it? This video gives a horrible example of how these two currencies differentiate. You keep using these buzzwords (e.g., “numbers”, “redeemable numbers” etc.) to achieve what exactly? Yes, any form of IOU is redeemable, congratulations for figuring this out. The video doesn't explain why Bitcoin is meaningless. It just says that it's not redeemable, which is not true. Redeemable means that it can be exchanged for goods, services or money. Both assets and liabilities (IOUs) are redeemable. You're repeatedly having false syllogisms. False conclusions. There's nothing false. Redeemable means able to be bought back by the issuer. It doesn't mean able to be traded. If I buy a government bond on the market I didn't redeem that bond. Only the government can do that by paying me the face value of the bond. I see that you lack basic knowledge about finance. That's why you have all these misconceptions about fiat currencies. No, fiat currencies are not numbers. They are securities. Bitcoin is a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it? Try to answer this question instead of makings false claims about securities. ok you love the phrases "number 1" and "security" "liability"
but what is a bank note secured against.
saying a bank note is backed by another bank note is not security. its just a promise to swap crumpled paper for crisp paper 1:1
it doesnt protect against inflation or loss
it especially does not secure your value that in 30 years you can still buy the same amount of bread as now.
heck zimbabwe went through 4 different bank notes and each time within years it lost value very very very quickly
so much so that zimbabwe just gave up on its own currency and now people use Us/euro currency.
the zimbabwe dollar did not secure anything and citizens of zimbabwe did not get compensated for the banking faults
a zimbabwe dollar being backed only by another zimbabwe dollar does not protect the zimbabwe dollar
..
if you expanded it out a bit, that $10 is worth 1000 copper pennies valued at $20 scrap price.
but then bitcoin can be exchanged for an altcoin or other assets
if you expanded out a bit you could say that 7.25 us dollars is secured against minimum wage law. meaning even someone on the lowest paid job will get atleast 7.50 of bank money for their hours labour.
but then you will have to realise that right now:
bitcoins most efficient work per btc is $35k
bitcoins least efficient work per btc is $85k
but here is the thing.
bitcoin is not a random TXID with an output number which has a randomly chosen price of no value.
bitcoins value window is between $35k-$85k as explained before. in multiple ways in different posts
the price sits within the value window.
the value window is the backed value based on the cost.
much like how copper has a acquisition cost. gold has an acquisition cost.
where it varies in price depending on different factors that vary the price within their respective value windows
So, why would I pay $38,000 only to get the ability to watch number 1 on the screen? |
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I am not trading it with some pieces of paper but with security that give me the right to recive capital that the security issuers borrowed at security puting on the market. The higher a number on paper the more capital, that is utility value, will I receive at security withdrawal from the market. You must educate yourself how securities work to be able to understand what I am talking about. But here that's not the point given bitcoin is not a security. Bitcoin is literally a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it?
a $10 bank note is a security of what??? if you take it to a bank. what do you expect in exchange?? at best they will swap a dirty, tatty crumpled bank note for a crisp bank note. 1:1 if you lose a $10 bank note, a bank wont just re-reimburse you/compensate you for the hole in your pocket. a bank note is no longer backed by gold. if anything it can be considered backed by copper/nickel that puts a $10 bank note at relative exchange of about $20 worth of scrap metal pennies and 5c coins. but the inconvenience of holding such weight and counting coins when doing purchases means people dont like to accept 1000 pennies for a $10 value purchase even if they can scrap the 1000 pennies for $20 later. when loans are taken out. its printing money(from nothing). where the receiver has to pay it back + interest this then causes your $10 bank note to not be worth $10 value. because the moment it circulates. and you receive it as income from work. you are suppose to give $2(20%) of your income to the government in taxes. meaning your instantly at a 20% value loss, only able to buy $8 worth of goods. if you take out a mortgage for $100k your basically going to have to give back $110k on a 2 year loan(5% interest per year) so that $100k is also less than $100k value. because you need to do 130% labour to pay tax(20%) on new income and then pay it off with the remainder income+interest(10%). what do you seriously expect bank notes to secure, what liability is it you are describing that banks have to you. Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-number because people accepted whatever ask the sellers put on the market. I am not accepting it because I am a rational buyer. I am checking what I am buying. That's why I asked the questions.
is not a "whatever ask the seller put" its actually the seller deciding what his costs were and what he can expect to sell for. its where the buyer can look for different ways to obtain bitcoin away from the market and decide if the market price is near value or premium compared to other acquisition methods(otc/mining/scamming) as for your need to explain how YOU see "liability/security" take the Zimbabwean dollar.(1980-2009) it hyper inflated. and the government did not protect it at the 1:1 rate against the US $ in the end people had trillion Z$ worth less than a loaf of bread Bank notes or numbers on my banking account secure the capital that I invested in them because the borrowers are forced, via collateral, to use these notes or numbers to repay their loans. Here you have video explaining that: https://youtu.be/p37Wg6h2PJ4Or: https://youtu.be/aBl-O_3g_58
I am not trading it with some pieces of paper but with security that give me the right to recive capital that the security issuers borrowed at security puting on the market. I don't know what you're trading it with, but when I buy a car I give these: The fact that you can use it to buy securities, bonds, investment funds etc. does not make it anything beyond a currency. This is all it is. And it has value, because your government says so. If you found another way to make your transactions, then you'd have found out another currency. This is Bitcoin. And since it's entirely possible to buy any type of titles with a currency, you can do with Bitcoin too. Yes, these euro units secure that you will recive the capital from the banking system and borrowers at the withdrawal of these units from the market. Check the videos linked above. You have two different approaches explaining this. [moderator's note: consecutive posts merged] |
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Because with a million dollars, either cash or digital, I get the ability to recive capital at the dollar withdrawal from the market, which is at loans repayments/liquidations You're gravely mistaken if you think that this is an exclusive feature of the dollar. It can happen to every currency. You still don't answer to my question, though. You said that you can multiply your dollars, but this doesn't answer on why you would trade your car with some pieces of paper. I am not trading it with some pieces of paper but with security that give me the right to recive capital that the security issuers borrowed at security puting on the market. The higher a number on paper the more capital, that is utility value, will I receive at security withdrawal from the market. You must educate yourself how securities work to be able to understand what I am talking about. But here that's not the point given bitcoin is not a security. Bitcoin is literally a number. And I am asking why would I pay an enormous amount of money for it?
Is that what Bitcoin really is to you? Have you gotten to know Bitcoin a little more deeply? What do you think is the reason why Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-currency? That, despite of a strong resistance from all directions, heavy criticisms, extreme labels, and so on. Do you think in buying Bitcoin people only buy a number registered and kept in the blockchain? Have you heard of any decentralized money? Have you heard of a tamper-proof, censor-proof, borderless currency? Have you heard of a currency whose supply is fixed, hard-coded, in the system?
Anyway, for argument’s sake, people give value to anything under the sun. It’s all about agreement. If a community agrees among themselves that this unique kind of leaf or that shiny kind of stone has value and could be used as a currency, it will have value. You have to take note that people worship a tree, a stone, or whatever.
Bitcoin turned from basically nothing into a $38,000-number because people accepted whatever ask the sellers put on the market. I am not accepting it because I am a rational buyer. I am checking what I am buying. That's why I asked the questions. [moderator's note: consecutive posts merged] |
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The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand? Why will you give your car for a million dollars in cash? Because people accept it as a currency. Because, you'll afterwards go to another person who's willing to trade their goods for your dollars. Simple economics where societies develop mediums of exchange. Same happens with Bitcoin. It meets the conditions to be considered currency. It was designed by humans only for that purpose. What's so hard to understand about that? Because with a million dollars, either cash or digital, I get the ability to recive capital at the dollar withdrawal from the market, which is at loans repayments/liquidations. Dollar is a security. Securities are shares in capital that the security issues borrowed and have the liability to return. Bitcoin on the other hand is not a security. It is literally a number. You can consider whatever you want, but bitcoin will still be only a number. Hence the question. |
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After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen. But, you're not supposed to look your screen. You're supposed to use it as a currency. Haven't you yet acknowledged that this is the only purpose of its existence? It doesn't have any intrinsic value. It's only meant to be traded. You can't make jewelry out of it. You can't live in it. It doesn't represent a fraction of a company. But, if two individuals agree that Bitcoin is money, then it instantly gains monetary value. And it does look like money! It's divisible, portable, durable, easily verifiable and transferrable. I'm trying to look things the way you do and I think you're just closed-minded. Well, if two individuals exchanged a car and a grain of sand, they agreed that a grain of sand is money, and it instantly gained monetary value. Everything can be money, even numbers, that is crypto. But that's not the point. The point is, why would I gave my car for a grain of sand? Why would I gave my car for number 1? Why would I gave 150,000 kWh of energy for the same number? A car and 150,000 kWh of energy, in comparison to a grain of sand or digital number 1, have an enormously higher utilization capacity. I am simply asking why would a rational buyer ever agree to such an irrational exchange of utilization capacities? |
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I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000. Without explanations, discipline and willingness to learn, you may not be able to understand the utilization.  If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. Everything's a number nowadays. What's the difference with Bitcoin: This number can't be censored by anyone. Everyone is forced to accept it's true. This feature is what makes it electronic cash. If you fail to understand this fact, you justifiably complain that there's nothing legitimate behind it. It's not about what I understand, it's about what I get. After buying bitcoin I get the ability to watch number on the screen. If I sell bitcoin to someone else, they also get the same ability. No human being can get anything after purchasing bitcoin, except this ability. So it's not like in the case of securities where people get the ability to recive the capital at the security withdrawal from the market. It's not like in the case of gold where people get the ability to use gold for jewelry, electronics and so on. It's literally the ability to watch a number on the screen. And of course it's not that only today everything is numbers. It was always like that. Numbers always existed. It's not Satoshi that invented them. The point is that numbers have always been just an axillary means to mathematically express the quantity of something. In the case of securities to express the quantity of capital that security issues borrowed and are liable to return. In the case of gold, the quantity of this metal. When I am buying 10,000 EUR I am not buying number "10,0000". Rather, I am buying the ability to recive a specific amoun of capital at the withdrawal of EUR units, wich is at loans liquidation/repayment. When I am buying two ounces of gold I am not buying number "2", but the ability to utilize gold for jewelry and other purposes. On the other hand, when people are buying one bitcoin they are literally buying number "1". And the only ability they have is to watch that number like pictures are watched. I am simply asking why would I buy something like that from people? Why would I gave them an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch a number? |
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And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich,
People get rich by buying arts all the time. It all depends on your expectations. Lots of people became rich by buying bitcoin before. Why do you think it would be different for you? Yes you can become rich buy buying a NFT too, if you are lucky. why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?
But these numbers are of limited supply. Only 21 million of them is available. If every millionaire wanted one, they couldn't get it. And they all want it. Look at Michael Saylor, Elon Musk etc... You should panic because there isn't enough bitcoins for everybody on earth. So start buying right fucking now and maybe you can get your full piece before your funeral. The thing that I am getting when purchasing bitcoin is a number. Numbers are not limited in supply, but infinite. Just because someone wrote a software with limited number of numbers doesn't make numbers limited like gold or diamonds are limited. Every idiot can write a software that puts numbers into a database and shows them on the screen. In whatever amount they want. You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former.
So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?
What the heck is utility value you are talking about? How do we measure this utility value and what units of measurement are there to express this utility? It is merely an ephemeral concept that doesn't make any sense at all since different people will value different things differently and that so-called value or utility value will vary significantly from one person to another. Moreover, there is no way to measure this value, it cannot be aggregated, subtracted, added, or divided. There is no reference system exist to measure the degree of utility. Even if we could measure it, it would be pointless to do that anyway because we are talking about bitcoin, which is a pure form of money. Unlike other goods, money is only useful when exchanged for something, it has no value by itself. So, money is only demanded because of its monetary use cases, and if there are other use cases such as industrial or ethical, that only distorts its functions and results in more complicated economic calculations. People buy bitcoin not because it has some questionable utility value that cannot be measured, but because bitcoin is the only money that is both decentralized and digital, money that is far superior to gold in terms of monetary characteristics. I have a counter-question for you. Why does a loaf of bread costs less than a diamond despite the fact that a loaf of bread has a higher utility value since it allows humans to eat and survive, whereas diamonds do nothing useful to humans? I am not interested in reasons why people buy bitcoin. Nor why they value same things differently. I am interested in something pretty simple. I see the ask price on the market, currently around $38,0000, and I am asking why should I pay that price if the only utility value I get is the ability to watch number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. You see how simple it is? I don't care about other people. I care only about the product that costs like a brand new car. With a car I have the ability to do lot of things. With bitcoin the only ability I have is the ability to watch number on the screen. So, why should I pay the price? I am not a blind buyer and I don't buy things just because people put prices on them. I am a rational buyer and I check what I am buying. So, can you provide a rational answer? |
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why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor? Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?
No need to always be aesthetic if you want to buy something. But if you really want to buy it based on aesthetic value, can you turn your mind to another side of "aesthetic"? By looking at your Bitcoin value that cents by cents increasing? I am not thinking of taking Bitcoin as seen as aesthetic, I see it as money, where I can use it for currency (if available in some merchants) and also use it for investment digitally. It is about mindset, if you buy something by only seeing the value of it physically, don't go to Bitcoin. But if you buy something by seeing the value inside of it and for investment,buy Bitcoin If you are doubtful, don't buy Bitcoin If you are sure enough, buy Bitcoin Look at the title of this topic. I am a buyer, a potential buyer. And I am asking, why should I pay so much money if the only utility I get after the purchase, is the ability to watch number "1" on the screen? Watching numbers has some minimum aesthetic value. But if I want such a value I could just press the key on my keyboard, get the number I like and enjoy it. So, why would I pay the current price of $38,398 to get the same utility? I see no rational answers here. Moreover, in comparison to number 1, the number 0.00000001 has more aesthetic value and is quantitatively richer, given it has more pixels. Yet, it costs only $0.00038. On the other hand, the number 10,000,000 is aesthetically and pixelatically similar to number 0.00000001, but it costs $383,980,000. So this is not like numbers in the case of the securities, where a particular number only represents the amount of capital a security issuer borrowed and has the liability to return. This is not like in the case of gold, where a particular number only represents the quantity of this metal. In bitcoin system, people are literally purchasing numbers for being numbers. Like pictures are purchased for being pictures. Miners are spending ton of electricity only to get numbers. That's craziness never seen in human history. |
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Given that bitcoin is not a security
This is true. one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized.
This is also true. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen.
It has been explained to you multiple times now that this is false. Either you are being intentionally obtuse and ignoring the explanations, or you suffer from poor reading comprehension. You can say it over and over and over (and you have), but repeating it doesn't make it true, nor does ignoring the forms of value that have been explained to you. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it.
They do not. The smallest spendable value of bitcoin is currently valued by the market at $0.037. You certainly can by multiple spendable units of it if you want to (just like you can buy miltiple paintings, or multiple ounces of gold) I don't care about explanations but utilization of a product that has price of $37,000. If I pay the price the only utilization I can get is watching number 1 on the screen of my mobile phone. That's the only truth. No explanation can change it. |
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dont watch the txid.
dont watch a bank note serial number.
you pretend all you can do is look at a number for bitcoin. but thats just as naively as me saying all i can do is look at a bank note serial number.
if you think bitcoin is just a number as you would have to then think a bank note is just a number. you would realise there is more to it in both cases than a number
if all you can see is a txid or a bank note serial number, then you are looking at the wrong thing. so stop looking at it. take your eyes off of it and realise the other things you can do with bitcoin and bank notes.
by the way. banks are not liable to you for $10
if you lose a bank note, a bank wont compensate you
if $10 bank note can buy you 4 loaves of bread, but banks push inflation to only be 2 loaves of bread at retail for $10. the bank will not give you 4 loaves when you surrender $10 to the bank.
the most they will do is give you a crisp $10 in replacement for the rank, sticky, dirty old $10.
they wont even give you 2 compensatory loaves if you show them a retail receipt of 2 loaves for $10
what you are buying is not the txid or the serial number. what you are buying is a unit of measure that can be used to buy/spend/keep/invest.
with a bank note i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy LESS bread with it. and no bank will compensate you for the missing bread
with bitcoin i guarantee you in 20 years time you can buy MORE bread with it.
as for liability.
with bank notes. the moment you receive $10 income. your suppose to declare 20%($2) of it as tax. meaning your at an instant 20% loss of value
with bank notes. when you receive $10 as a loan. your suppose to pay back $11 in 2 years (5% interest).
you are never going to get 4 loaf value with a bank note. the banks do not owe you anything.
I think nothing. I am just saying what I see. I see that issuers of the securities return holders the capital at the securities withdrawal. That's the purpose of the securities. That's how they are utilized. At their puting on the market the capital is borrowed, and at their withdrawal the capital is returned. Given that bitcoin is not a security one can utilize it via its intrinsic value, like all non securities, that is, economic goods, are utilized. The intrinsic value of bitcoin is watching number on a screen. The bitcoin system exists only to provide the holders with this "watching" and to transfer it between people. First the miners invest electricity to make the system running, and the system rewards them by giving them the ability to watch a number on the screen. Then, they sell this "watching" to someone else. Currently, people ask $37,000 for it. I am simply asking why would I pay so much money for something like that? |
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you can cry about how you just see a bank note serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of bank notes
you can cry about how you just see a share certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of shares
you can cry about how you just see a stock certificate serial number and thats the only utility you see, watching the serial number.. forgetting the real utility of stocks.
..
so the real question is
why are you seeing beyond a bank notes serial number?? and trying to find a bank notes utility. but ignorantly and arrogantly trying too hard to only see a txid and think its the only thing you can do
I am not crying. I am stating the facts that securities are utilized at the time of their withdrawal from the market by providing their holders the capital that the issuers of securities were liable to return. I am also stating that bitcoin is not a security. So the only possible way anyone can utilize bitcoin is by watching a number on a screen. What I am asking is why would I pay $37,000 for watching number "1" on the screen. So, it's pretty simple. |
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i know you are thinking you are just buying a "number 1" and watching it. but you are not
you are ignoring its utility..
you are acting as if a bank note is just a serial number which you just watch and see the amount of loaves of bread it can buy deminish each year. where all you want to talk about is the serial number vs bread loaf value.
firstly its utility is not just "number 1"
deflationary
unlike bank notes that can print endlessly meaning inflation allows you to buy less bread per $10 bank note per year/decade. bitcoin supply halves every 4 years meaning less NEW coins every 4 years where that equates to deflation which means people would sell more loaves of bread for less coin as time goes on
remittance
you dont need to go to western union and explain why you are sending $38k to your relative in another country, with bitcoin you just make a transaction without having to explain who you are or the other person or the reason for the transfer.
its a currency without the banks. i can buy pizza, rent, a car, and hundreds of thousands of other things without needing to disclose bank details or reasons for payment.
monitoring
unlike bank accounts(like remittance) that need ID and question purpose of transactions. there is also no flagging of spending over 0.3btc(~$10k). you can send as little or as much as you like. no questions asked
security
unlike bank accounts where banks can seize funds, as long as your the only private key holder of the 'number 1' only you can move it. there is no chargeback scamming. no fractional reserve. no 90day refund policy. . once its moved. its moved, end of.
also unlike art, oil,wheat. where you are stuck with flame risking asset, which if it burns its gone.
all you need to store is the private key for security. you can store your private key in multiple safe places, in multiple forms. where as art is a single instance which doesnt like fire.
supply.
unlike gold that was said to have a 190k tonne cap. and now with asteroid mining in near future that cap has evaporated. bitcoin will only have (actually less than) 21million 'number 1'.
yes its not like commodity. (wheat,oil, gold) where its a raw material used to make other products
yes its not like a stock/share(value of company holding)
its an asset. like collectables, currencies.
yes its not an attractive collectable asset like jewellery or art. but here is the thing, its a asset currency. with better utility than fiat currencies
most of the aesthetic features of collectable assets do not convert the aesthetics feature into the market price.
take gold.
if it cost only $2 to mine gold in a back yard using only a spoon and a coffee filter. the market would speculate only at $2-$5
however because it costs over $900 to mine gold, the market speculates between $900-$2k
yes there are many factors that change the 'demand' decision of valuing it nearer the $900 or nearer the $2k speculative price inside the value window. where some of those decision might be based on desire/aesthetics/etc. but the aesthetics dont affect the $900-$2k window.
you have to understand the underlying value window.
bitcoin sits at around $35k-$85k value window today due to the cheapest mining cost vs the most expensive mining cost today.
iceland/kazahkstan($35k) bermuda/german($85k)
lets say in america
hobby miners mining in residential area's have a mining cost of $51k
industrial asic farm mining has a mining cost of $41k
so right now. the speculative price for americans make it more desirable to buy it for $38k today, rather then slowly accumulate it from mining at more cost($41k-$51k)
china, kazahkstan, iceland prefer to mine... germany, japan, europe, america prefer to buy
most of bitcoins volatile PRICE within the value window. is not based on aesthetics. its based on the acquisition value of whats cheapest way to get bitcoin.
where by the reason people want it vary based on its utility,security, features as a asset currency. and where bitcoin is more deflationary than golds 'asset' class investment market.
inshort. when asteroid miners bring tonnes of gold back in 2040, golds value will DROP. because tonnes of extra gold per year is occurring more then earth mining. (earth mining per year 3tonne ->asteroid mining 100tonne per starship load)
yet bitcoins production would be 32x less than todays rate(6.25 -> 0.1953125 per block)
You're just describing bitcoin. You can describing it from now until eternity, but after I pay $37,000 for it, I am still only able to watch number "1" on the screen. That's all the utility I get for paying such an enormous amount of money. Your descriptions mean nothing to me. They cannot change facts. These descriptions are essentially just psychological rationalizations of those who bought bitcoin blindly, without checking what they are actually buying. Regarding, a bank note. It's a security by which a banking system has liability to it's holder, just like a stock and a bond certificates are securities by which their issuers have such liability. As such they have nothing to do with bitcoin. No entity has liability to you when you hold bitcoin. |
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And now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37,000 and watch something aesthetically poor?
That what you're talking about is not utilizing but trading. Everything can be traded. The question is why would one pay an enormous amount of money for a single unit of a product that has an extremely low utilization capacity?
Ah, the classic unit bias problem that has been talked about thousands of times now. This is why I'm an advocate for using lower denominations like sats — to get the newbs away from the likes of XRP and get in on bitcoin. It's like saying: " why buy a 1kg gold bar if it's only 1 gold bar?" Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?
Because gold is a boomer asset and has performed bad throughout the years, a sunset picture is highly illiquid, crude oil has a very unknown supply inflation(like gold), etc etc. But hey, if you want to invest in these stuff, then go for it! " If you don't believe it or don't get it, I don't have the time to try to convince you, sorry." - Someone someone. You are now just describing things. I know what gold, a picture or crude oil is. What I am asking is this. One ounce of gold, in jewelry for e.g., or watching a sunset picture, has much higher utility value than watching number "1" on the screen of a mobile phone. Because that's all the utility you get after purchasing bitcoin - you are able to watch a number on the screen. Yet, one has to pay $37,000 to for this. And only $1,800 or a couple of bucks for the former. So, why would I pay an enormous amount of money only to get the ability to watch number "1" on the screen?
Sure I am a potential buyer. But only if someone providers a rational answer to my questions.
Bullshit. There is no answer that will satisfy you, even if Satoshi himself comes here and answers all your questions. As I said, your mind is set and it giving any sort of pro bitcoin argument would be a total waste of time. If it is easier for you, try to view my questions as rhetorical. |
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However, in the case of bitcoin the only way I can utilize it is by watching it. That's all. Once I buy bitcoin, my wallet application reads a number from the blockchain, an shows it on the screen of my mobile phone. And all I can do, is to watch that number.
Why would I pay so much money for a single unit of a product that in comparation to gold, a sunset picture, wheat or crude oil has so low utilization capacity?
Bitcoin is currency, so you could utilize it just like how you utilize fiat. But IMO most practical usage are to protect privacy, evade censorship or protection from authoritarian government. Few random example, https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=137.0https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/edward-snowden-reveals-he-used-bitcoin-to-leak-nsa-documents-nearly-10-years-ago/ar-AAQZQEShttps://www.bitcoininsider.org/article/129955/afghan-women-have-been-able-use-bitcoin-flee-afghanistanAnd now the questions: if I can purchase a picture of a sunset for a couple of bucks on Shutterstock and watch something aesthetically rich, why on Earth would I purchase a number "1" for $37.000 and watch something aesthetically poor?
It's like comparing apples with oranges. If you prioritize aesthetics, consider "physical" Bitcoin or another goods. That what you're talking about is not utilizing but trading. Everything can be traded. The question is why would one pay an enormous amount of money for a single unit of a product that has an extremely low utilization capacity? |
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