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An anticapitalist (wikipedia says so) who likes bitcoin? Can you explain that?  Either you are plain wrong and dont know what real capitalism means, or you are confused about the values that bitcoin represents: free market, free trade, right to private property, individual freedom, etc... CAPITALISM in its more pure expression (libertarian, ancap, etc) I get the impression you think crony capitalism is capitalism, when they're not the same. Not bashing around, I'm just curious as to what your position is in this story, and what you expect of bitcoin. For me Bitcoin is freedom from controls, and freedom to exchange globally.. If you trade to make rich, you can do, right, but if we trade to build a cooperative society, we can do, also. Bitcoin could be better, but more of less is neutral between capitalist and anarchist punt of view. It depends how do you use it.. We, in the Cooperativa integral catalana, not are going to use bitcoin internally because we have better aproach to do it (social currencies, direct exchange, reciprocity, and others) but bitcoin its so better from bankers money to be used externally to trade with other coops and people of the world. regards enric |
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Claro que tiene que ver con el Bitcoin. Bitcoin para muchos es un avance par evitar el control de los poderes políticos a los intercambios económicos y al mismo tiempo una alternativa al sistema bancario tradicional. Esa acción hace más 5 años (y antes que existiera bitcoin), se hizo para denunciar un sistema basado en el monopolio bancario de la creación de dinero legal y para crear alternativas al mismo. El propio comunicado dice algo que tien mucha relacion con parte de las motivaciones para crear bitcoin: "Mientras los bancos sigan manteniendo el monopolio de la emisión del dinero legal, mientras sigan prestando con intereses el dinero que los acuerdos de los estados les han permitido crear sin costo y que deberían formar parte del común, mientras continúen resultando impunes en su deriva especulativa, generando agujeros de miles de millones de euros que provocan recortes sociales por todas partes, mientras se convierten en responsables de dramas personales expulsando gente de su casa…, mientras todo esto siga ocurriendo, será igualmente legítimo recuperar desde la audacia colaborativa la parte que se pueda de ese dinero que nos estafan para dedicarlo realmente a proyectos relacionados con el bien común"Por cierto WSDN: eso que dice este muchacho de que la accion fue colectiva y que agredece la participacion de colaboradores, lo veo como para ensuciar un poco el camino y no quedar pegado solo en esta movida.
Si te lees el comunicado original: http://enricduran.cat/es/comunicado17s2013/podrás encontrar que si se dice precisamente ahora, es porque las denuncias han prescrito para la gente que participó (no en los créditos, pero sí en decidir el origen de parte de los fondos o en recibirlos para determinados proyectos). Por tanto todo lo contrario de lo que piensas. saludos pd: Por cierto Enric Duran, soy yo... |
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Enric Duran se plantea acciones legales por la vulneración de sus derechos de defensa mientras prepara un proyecto restaurativo En un comunicado hecho público hoy, 17 de septiembre de 2013 –Coincidiendo con el quinto aniversario de su anuncio en la publicación Crisis de la expropiación bancaria que hizo–, Enric Duran anuncia que está valorando “llevar a cabo las acciones legales adecuadas, ante la vulneración de derechos que está sucediendo cada día que pasa en relación a mi defensa”. Afirma que se han vulnerado el derecho a la información del proceso, el derecho a elegir testigos, el derecho a elegir libremente abogado y el derecho a tener un abogado defensor. “Parece ser –Dice Enric Duran en el comunicado– que la sección segunda de la Audiencia provincial de Barcelona se ha inventado una nueva ley que dice que un acusado en rebeldía pierde sus derechos fundamentales en relación al proceso de defensa.” Para Duran, los motivos que justificaron esa acción anunciada el 17 de septiembre de 2008 no han prescrito y por eso continúa “facilitando apoyo a otras iniciativas, que pretenden realizar acciones similares y por ello, tampoco, no he renunciado a encontrar y aprovechar nuevos agujeros que deja el sistema bancario en su desmedida voluntad de lucrarse a través de los ahorros de la gente”. Según manifiesta en el comunicado, “las fuerzas policiales del Estado español no me buscan sólo por la acción explicada en 2008, sino, también, por otra, aunque más pequeña, realizada en 2011”. En el comunicado también ha analizado algunos aspectos de actualidad para luego opinar que “la encriptación, el bitcoin y las impresoras 3D son puntas de lanza de toda una serie de tecnologías revolucionarias que apenas empiezan, para multiplicar la libertad de los individuos y de las redes autoorganizadas al margen del poder, poniendo fecha final a la hegemonía de los Estados-nación tal como los hemos conocido en las últimas décadas”.Ante estos retos, Enric Duran considera que “los que trabajamos por una revolución integral que incluya la construcción de nuevas estructuras de autoorganitació social y política, a la vez que una transformación profunda del ser humano que recupere el ser comunitario, tenemos un reto aún mayor del que habíamos imaginado”. En este sentido, Duran anuncia el relanzamiento del colectivo RADI, creado hace medio año. Enlace al comunicado entero: http://www.enricduran.cat/es/comunicado17s2013 |
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Five years after the publication of "Crisi" and the anouncement of a bank expropriation of 492,000 euros, Enric Duran considers legal action for violation of his rights of defense while preparing a project of restorative justice.In a statement published today, 17 of September, on the 5th anniversary of the publication of "Crisi" which carried the announcement of his expropriation, Enric Duran says that he is "thinking about carrying out legal action against the daily infringement of my defence rights". He states that the right of information, choice of witnesses and choice of lawyer have all been breeched. “It looks as if - says Enric - the second section of the Provincial Court of Barcelona has invented a new law against all odds, saying that an accused who is in hiding loses his fundamental rights in relation to the process of defence” For Duran, the reasons that justified that action announced on the 17th of September 2008, have not been fallen in to prescription. For this reason he says that he will continue “providing support to other initiatives who seek to act similarly. For the same reason I have not given up taking advantage of and poking new holes in this banking system's whose only aim is to get profits out of people's savings” According to the statement: “Spanish police is now hunting me not only for the action explained in 2008, but also for another one, although smaller, realised in 2011”. In the press release he also analized some current affair events concluding that "encripting, the bitcoin and the 3D printers are spearheads of a whole range of revolutionary technologies that are only just starting to enhance the freedom of individuals and organized networks, putting a sell by date on the hegemony of the State-nation as we have known them in the last decades”.Faced with these challenges, Enric Duran considers that “those who work for an integral revolution that includes the building of new structures of social and political self-organization and at the same time for a deep transformation of human being that recover value of community, have an even bigger challenge ahead than we had imagined”. In this sense, Duran announces the relaunch of the collective RADI, created half a year ago. Link to full statement: http://www.enricduran.cat/en/statementS172013See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enric_Duran
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Gracias LuisCar, veo que puedo poner también la media que es lo que me interesa, ahora será cuestión de trastear un poco! |
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Que idea más absurda, si aceptas cambiar a un tipo diferente al del mercado ¿como vas a evitar que compren a precio de mercado y vendan contra tu precio?
Seria un cambio dirigido a nuestros socios los cuales rechazan la especulación, pero les interesa bitcoin para salir del euro y de la legalidad estatal. A quien nos quiera cambiar de forma especulativa, simplemente no se lo aceptaremos  |
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Seria esto en cuanto a información inmediata de la que se podría sacar el precio en la oficina. Por ejempo hoy serian 92.03. Gracias.
Sigo con la duda de si se podrían cambiar los parámetros de un procesador de pagos, para que en lugar de coger el precio del momento cogiera ese valor.
También para poder comprobar como cambia la volatilidad en ese caso seria muy útil una gráfica hecha con la evolución del precio a 30 dias.
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Buenas, En el marco de la cooperativa integral catalana http://www.cooperativa.cat estamos empezando a dar vueltas a generar una oficina de cambio para proyectos productivos que quieran empezar a usar las cryptomonedas de forma complementaria a las monedas sociales que ya llevamos años promoviendo. Una resistencia que se crea al enfocar este tema, és la volatilidad de los precios por las razones especulativas y de falta aun de liquidez del mercado monetario. Esto podría llevar a que el vendedor en un momento dado vea disminuido o aumentado en mucho el valor de su venta cuando vaya a cambiarlo por dinero fiat (en nuestro caso euros) Por ello se nos ha ocurrido generar una oficina de cambio diferente, la cual solo cambiaria monedas que esten vinculadas a la actividad comercial ya sea para a los proyectos productivos o a sus clientes y que para darles seguridad asumiria un cambio al margen de los vaivenes especulativos. Una manera de hacer eso, que se me ocurre sería trabajar con la media de los últimos 30 días. Sabeis si existe ya alguna gráfica o listado de precios de bitcoin que trabaje con ese dato de la media de los últimos 30 días. Si no es así, ¿se os ocurre como generarla? Y para módulos como bitpay o similares, seria complicado cambiar el precio vinculado al api de mtgox, por el precio vinculado a esa media? Se os ocurren otras maneras mejores de generar esta protección del comercio ante la especulación? Agradezco vuestras aportaciones, Enric |
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I think that the bitcoin community has the responsability to posicionate itself including in a better space in the forum the really innovative, community supported and complementary coins and take distance from the others (lost projects, pump amb dump, scam, premined etc...) So i think that is not difficult to consens that there some coins that are complementary to bitcoin and have innovations and real community suport: At first first level: litecoin namecoin at a second level: ppcoin devcoin freicoin and no more, until other coins demonstrate long time, huge communitary support. Every one of this real cryptocurrencies, have their own forum (perhaps except devcoin?) but not exist a forum to talk about the real cryptocurrencies as a group related to bitcoin. But i think that a at the current moment its pretty important to think and create about technical innovation and public outreach, not only for bitcoin (in competition with other real crytocurrencies?) but bitcoin & other real alts. So we need a common space for bitcoin & and other real cryptos. and the better space is this, bitcointalk as the more consolidated forum... At the sime time that Dollar, euro, pounds, pesos, yen, yuan ruble...etc its the cluster of the fiat money and their technical and organization its useful for all the cluster (central banks, ATM, credit cards, etc...) Our technical organization as a cluster of p2p& crypto currencies needs to be useful for all the cluster. So, I propose to rethinking bitcoin talk & other cryptocurrencies. perhaps a subforum in "other" section could be: - Bitcoin & Other real cryptocurrencies (litecoin, namecoin, ppcoin, devcoin, freicoin) And inside (child forums like mining project development, etc...) and alternative cryptocurrencies subforum, could be abandoned or just make and advice/above post saying: "bitcoin talk itself not responsible of the content of this subforum" just my opinion!  |
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Hello! I want to introduce a proposal that I called a cooperative pool , that its a non profit pool of cryptocurrency miners whose benefits would go not to individuals but would be used to generate self-managed and non-profit projects for the communal goods. We could try to get donations from the mining hardware through the cryptocurrency community to reduce startup costs and increase the benefit of the community. I perceive this project as a way to multiply the impact of fundraise communty projects and to do a great link between bitcoin world and social/self manegement world, because this project would create a dynamic process that would allow generate the task of creating multiple local solidarity organizations in the world of cryptocurrencies. I browsed the internet and have not found anything similar. The project could be international in scope, through territorial nodes, generating funds to manage locally via these nodes and to promote alternative and communitarian economies in the locality. The territorial node would be in turn, the political responsible of the projects funded by this cooperative pool in its area and should therefore include a number of people and function through direct participation Each territorial node would bring together the greatest number of hardware resources to search for the ones located in private homes and at the same time the ones in the very headquarters of the projects that need funding. The territorial node would be the responsible to validate new miners to become part of its node, while validating at the same time the projects. As example i am involved in to create a local node in Catalonia supported with people involved in Cooperativa Integral Catalana http://autonomies.org/en/2013/03/revolution-from-below-coopertiva-integral-catalan/Also will be a global cooperative that could involve miners that don't have a local node to be involved, and will be projects to support at the global level. All the cooperative (global + local nodes) would decide about the more general questions, for example: - To trust in local groups to generate a local node - cryptocurrencies supported - About organize a common event - and so on I hope to meet here people with technical expertise to develop the cooperative pool. we need for the first beginning some taks to do. - one wordpress page to explaind and promote it? (and a subdomains for every node?) - one call for participate with nodes and hash involvement. - one call for hardware donation for minning + has - to install a pool software (some people proposed p2pool) The project could include - crypto's currencies donations -voluntary computing donations -hash power donations - hardware donations We need to create a working group to begin the process at the global level. So, with this missage i would ask for people that would be involved. pd: the project has already posted in freicoin forum, getting already some support: http://www.freicoin.org/a-cooperative-pool-to-generate-self-managed-projects-t340-20.htmlwaiting for replies! Enric |
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Exactly,
And the service of exchange bills at home, is not an offer of the big couriers, because normal people dont need its,
but would be very useful for bitcons people...
i thing that a network of local levels projects would be nice...
Would be important a beginning in a city with a lot of bitcoin adopters..
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Hello I was talking about the same in this topic Ok our big goal its to descentralize absolutely our alternative economic system.
we have bitcoin + opentransactions + bitmessage,
but i think that we need two more pieces to complete this alternative system, because the global power system its attacking
the form that we change dolars/euro/... to bitcoins; and the fiat as a virtual currency are always connected to a nominal bank account controlled by the central banks.
1. A home version of bitcoin ATM.
Yes, perhaps sounds crazy,, but if we want to change the world, we need to think also about this crazy possibilities. A system by the way people could diposit fiat currencies to exchange for bitcoins from their home. So, a really p2p alternative to the banking system.
I imagine a little atm machine connect with your cumputer where you put your bills, in order to be changed in the p2p exchange. When fiat is exchanged for bitcoins,
the atm system, blocks your possibilities to get the bills.
2. A p2p courier system to do anonymous bills exchange
To complete the bitcoin ATM home version, we need a p2p courier, that move the bills between diferents homes to adapt the exchanges between their p2p fiat accounts...Perhaps a cryptografic system could link the courier with the home ATM in order to do segure transactions...
So, i mean... we need to pierce the anonymity and decentralization to the physical world!
And reading your links to early posts, seems that are already some thinking useful to be continue: Personally, I love the idea of flying, autonomous delivery services as much as the next guy, but I think this conversation needs some re-alignment. The issue more presently at hand is that of a lack of decentralized distribution services. I had an idea for such a system.
BitDrop.
Bitdrop would be a system for human "runners" to pass goods from person to person in the most cryptographically secure way possible.
Person A negotiates a sale of an item to person B online.
Upon deciding on BitDrop as means of distribution, distance would be calculated and current gas prices would be tabulated. This is the base shipping cost.
Person A types in their "willing to travel" radius, and, the machine would chew on the data and randomly/securely spit back out an exact lat-lon point within that radius.
A nearby runner gets notified that a package is ready for distribution. He's signed up with his own "willing to travel" radius as well. Ideally, if there are enough warm bodies in the chain, the venn diagrams all start overlapping, and form a human supply chain.
Upon the completed transaction, all runners in the chain would receive good feedback (ideas for delivery confirmation? sms? scanned qr codes?), and get higher GPG rankings, which would enable them to deliver goods that had been marked with higher trust requirements...and likewise, the more you're trusted in in the chain, the more the runners can charge. Seller wants to sell something of importance/high value? they can raise the trust threshold (and subsequently, the shipping rate)
As far as black market goods go, I've thought of this scenario. The TOS for bitdrop would state specifically that transfer of illegal goods is strictly prohibited; however, you may anonymously mark your package "shaded" if you feel the contents pose risk for any member of the chain, including senders, receivers and most importantly, runners. Shaded goods may be distributed exclusively via dead drops, and runners can opt into notifications of shaded packages, but only after a GPG trust threshold is passed, so a significant time expenditure is required before you go "googling for drugs". You basically knowingly waive your rights when you deal with shaded transacations. That being said, I'm sure it would turn into a profitable venture for risk-takers, while keeping clean runners away from things that could land them in jail for trafficking.
There are other details I've thought of, including the distinction between dead drops and trusted drops. Dead drops would be entry-points into the runner market. Let's say I want to make some extra money, and I want to sign up as a runner. I go to the bitdrop site and sign up for an entry-level position. This requires that I pledge a deposit for the first item I'll deliver. This means that new runners will mainly focus on delivering items of little value. It's a Low-risk, low-return scenario for everybody involved with the transaction. Once I, the runner, complete my transaction, the deposit is returned to my account, as well as the base shipping cost + small delivery fee. Part of becoming a runner is setting up GPG-Authentication. The buyer and seller then add ratings to my transaction, and after a threshold is reached, I'm allowed to forego placing a deposit on items of certain values or lower. Eventually, dead drops would give way of chains with "trusted drops", where people who've established their trust arrange meetups based on encrypted lat-lon values and anonymous instructions. The specifics should be debated about at length to promote the safety and longevity of the chain Smiley
I don't expect my first ramblings to be the end-all-be-all of this system, but unless I'm way off base, I think the concept has potential. I actually wrote up an extensive post detailing this idea yesterday, and stupidly hit f5 before I sent it, erasing my whole post instantly... I'd love to hear feedback and concerns.
and more: Calling ruby, php, python and javascript developers we're starting development.Get your name on this project, make a place for yourself in history.
PM me your experience and anything else you think important.
I like the basic idea however I'd reconsider the choice of technology and centralized nature. If you want a robust delivery network that is resilient to attacks it has to be a peer-to-peer system and then C++/Java/Python/.NET and similar non-web technologies are the way to go for nodes. But I'm thinking that bitcoin merchants don't really want a system that delivers parcels from their building to their customers. What they really want is for products to be delivered to the consumers as cheap and easy as possible. That is why Amazon distribution centers are so popular. So how about a Peer-to-Peer Distribution Network? Any entrepreneur with storage space can add a distribution center to the distribution network. Nodes then re-calculate optimal distribution of products in response to network events, past product distribution behavior, and prices. Such network events can for instance be addition or removal of storage space at a distribution center, addition or removal of a distribution center, addition of a product, creation of a parcel, delivery of a parcel, and undeliverable parcel. The distribution network can be modeled with a (distributed) graph data structure. The parcel is created as close as possible to the customer for faster delivery. Products are sourced from the closest possible distribution centers. Distribution centers are replenished according to predicted demand. Customers that live in areas with regular demand will likely experience very fast delivery even if the bitcoin merchant is on another continent. Since demand in an area would be visible, a good infrastructure would likely develop - jobs are created. Distribution centers and couriers are competing which will keep prices low in areas with high demand (eg. cities of a reasonble size). Investigating an optimal product distribution algorithm would be an interesting computer science problem. Of course distribution centers and couriers need to have some sort of trust rating. It would be easy to track whom lost a parcel with digital signatures and decrease the rating which would result in the network sending less business their way in the future. In fact a rule could be made that the value of the parcel must be paid to a Bitcoin address (owned by the merchant) before the network again will send new parcels their way. Distribution centers and couriers can choose not to accept parcels with a too high value and insurrance companies would probably be created to cover their loss if there is a need. The merchant will digitally sign the delivery order and the customer will digitally sign for the reception of the parcel on arrival. Distribution centers can be small (apartment based) or large (dedicated buildings) and couriers can use bicycles or trucks. I would definitely support such a project. Casper For me its important to focus in the local level that could go at the same time in multiple cities and countries all over the world. An could incorporate a exchange system between cash and bitcoins out of the banks... more people interested? |
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Ok our big goal its to descentralize absolutely our alternative economic system.
we have bitcoin + opentransactions + bitmessage,
but i think that we need two more pieces to complete this alternative system, because the global power system its attacking
the form that we change dolars/euro/... to bitcoins; and the fiat as a virtual currency are always connected to a nominal bank account controlled by the central banks.
1. A home version of bitcoin ATM.
Yes, perhaps sounds crazy,, but if we want to change the world, we need to think also about this crazy possibilities. A system by the way people could diposit fiat currencies to exchange for bitcoins from their home. So, a really p2p alternative to the banking system.
I imagine a little atm machine connect with your cumputer where you put your bills, in order to be changed in the p2p exchange. When fiat is exchanged for bitcoins,
the atm system, blocks your possibilities to get the bills.
2. A p2p courier system to do anonymous bills exchange
To complete the bitcoin ATM home version, we need a p2p courier, that move the bills between diferents homes to adapt the exchanges between their p2p fiat accounts...Perhaps a cryptografic system could link the courier with the home ATM in order to do segure transactions...
So, i mean... we need to pierce the anonymity and decentralization to the physical world!
If people are interested perhaps its possible to create another post about this questions!
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Hola! Al hilo del tema del pago del IVA, hay decenas de monedas sociales que se estan utilizando para pagos desde hace años sin cargar el IVA, en el estado español y no ha habido ningun problema con la agencia tributaria. Pese a ello, algunos grupos más legalistas la han cargado como opinais algunos miembros de este debate "como autoimpuesto" aunque no hayan tenido ninguna presión para ello, a veces solo, por el "que diran" , pero la mayoria que no lo hemos usado, seguimos sin haber tenido ningún problema. Podeis miraros este hilo que publiqué en Freicoin, para conocer sobre las monedas sociales que funcionan en la actualidad http://www.freicoin.org/monedas-sociales-en-el-estado-espanol-t414.htmlEn nuestro caso, lo hacemos a través de http://www.ces.org.za y siguiendo el argumento que comentaba Liberto, que segun la ley quien debería pagarlo es el creador de la moneda, se deberían de ir a Sudáfrica, que es donde están registrados los servidores. Por otra parte el tema de la desobediencia fiscal, tiene otras vertientes, algunas más arriesgadas que el simple no pago de impuestos por bitcoins o monedas sociales. La Cooperativa Integral Catalana, es un ejemplo de aplicar esas propuestas desobedientes. Quien esté interesado en esas formas de desobediencia, las puede encontrar en http://www.derechoderebelion.net/?lang=essaludos |
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Será en AureaSocial C/ Sardenya 263 http://www.aureasocial.org[/quote] Interesante, ¿Donde es exactamente? Alomejor me paso si puedo claro, saludos! [/quote] Siento que no me he logeado de nuevo hasta ahora Lo tenías justo antes de la pregunta que has hecho  Ese es el local donde hacemos los actos públicos, el espacio productivo está en poblenou Igualmente si estás interesado puedo ponerte en contacto con gente que está moviendo esas cosas.. envíame un PM para ello. saludos |
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¿Maquinaria 3D?¿Cuanta gente?¿fablab?
Todo es cuestión de hablar jajaj.
Bueno aunque estamos empezando, somos parte de una red en la que hay un buen grupo de personas y diversas maquinarias. precisamente hoy jueves hay una charla en Barcelona sobre estos temas y es la gente de este fablab quien la monta Copio debajo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ciclo de charlas "De la addicción al petróleo a la energía libre" Este jueves, 23 de mayo, a las 19:00h tendremos la Mesa redonda: Nuevos modelos de creación y producción con tecnologías libres. Con la participación de miembros de fablab bcn, hangar, y domothings Anastasia Pistofidou, coordinadora Fab Lab Barcelona. Especializada en la consultoría y la educación alrededor de las nuevas tecnologías, la fabricación digital y el movimiento Hazlo tú mismo. Profesora en el Instituto de Arquitectura Avanzada de Cataluña en fabricación Digital y Materiales. Raul Nieves, miembro fundador del colectivo blablabLAB, dentro del cual produjo proyectos con reconocimiento nacional (Santa Mónica, Sala de Arte Joven) e internacional (Ars Electrónica), y exposiciones nacionales e internacionales (bienal de Estambul, bienal de Seoul, Nueva York). En 2013 inicia la plataforma Pratipo, con actividad docente (Elisava, ACVIC, Hangar), producción w (Idensitat) y búsqueda creativa (SAJ2013). Es impulsor del proyecto Faboratory (en residencia permamente en Hangar) s.miembor de AEREN (Asociación para el estudio de los recursos energéticos). Será en AureaSocial C/ Sardenya 263 http://www.aureasocial.org |
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houses in spain usually are cheap... around 50k euros fora decent house
Yes, some homes could be very cheaper, right now after the crisis. For 50.000 euros you can get a 30 m2 flat, but we are not talking of the same |
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Buenas
A parte de que soy de Barcelona también; con mi gente podríamos aportar local y maquinaria de impresión 3D, porque tenemos un local industrial
para proyectos de este tipo que está empezando...En concreto estamos montando un fablab.
Se trata de un proyecto cooperativo.
Seria cuestión de conocerse en persona y ver en que podemos colaborar.
saludos
enric
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The house is all exterior, with windows on three of the
four sides of the house, which gives natural light from
the first to the last minute of the day, all year long. How hot does it get in there? A more pertinent question would be "How does anyone get in there?" since it only advertises having windows on all four sides and they are all apparently barred up. Yes, also pertinent!. There are two entrances to the house. One from the street thorough some old public stairs, the other through the garage, wich is the most commonly used. |
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