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6161  Economy / Economics / Re: Distribution of Wealth on: March 13, 2011, 09:16:55 PM
And who said "no rules"? Freedom is about no rulers, not no rules.
<snip>
<lots of links>
I'm going to read these links you sent, 'cos I really can't understand how you can have rules if there's no ruler to enforce them,

And that is why most people can't understand libertarianism.
6162  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Options for offline-only users? on: March 13, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
Let's say they fork the chain. When they reconnect, they find out that their chain is shorter (less combined difficulty). What happens to the transactions in their chain?


Basicly, yes.

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The only thing I see is that they would be unable to generate blocks at current difficulty. Perhaps their clients are smart enough to know when they are disconnected from the main network. When disconnected, blocks are generated at a lower difficulty, which is readjusted every N blocks where N is significantly less than 2016.

A client could detect when it is on the minority side of a network split, although none presently do, by tracking the average time interval between blocks.  If the interval is more than twice the average for several blocks, or more than 6 times the average once, that client is almost certainly disconnected from the majority network.

Still, the clients cannot just decide to lower the difficulty.
6163  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Options for offline-only users? on: March 13, 2011, 09:03:33 PM
Not really true in this case.  The risk of double spending is if there is a person on the sub trying to send coins from a wallet to another person on the sub, while another person in the greater Internet has a copy of that same wallet trying to spend those same bitcoins.  This excludes the possibility that the sub was trying to generate while under water, which would be futile and therefore should be suspect anyway.  There would still be a near zero risk that coins could be double spent on the sub itself.  A disconnected client is at risk of a double spend, but a disconnected client can certainly itself spend.
Yes, but the sailors can't process the transactions by generating blocks, right? Otherwise, they'd have to fork the chain.

No, and if they tried then their blocks would be wiped out each time that they reconnected to the majority network, and those transactions would have to be included in another future block anyway.  The chain split that it would cause wouldn't be a problem for anyone outside of the ship.
6164  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why Is Getting Bitcoin "Accepted" As A Form Of Payment So Important??? on: March 13, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
Before something can be a store of value, it needs to have value. Gold gained this initially through being wanted for use in jewelry. The only way bitcoin can gain value, is by proving its worth as a useful (or even best) means of electronic payment.
This is a good point. Can bitcoin be a reliable store of value (as it currently is) without being supported by its use as a highly convenient electronic payment method? Can something be established solely as a store of value? Where does the value come from? I'm guessing it being a highly convenient store of value... But I can't wrap my head around it to be convinced that it can be enough...


Bitcoin can be a reliable store of value, as can gold, silver, US Savings Bonds, or many other things.  There are investment vehicles that exist specificly as a store of value, such as US Savings Bonds, but even that isn't a certainty, and I can think of no such intentional structures that do not have counter party risk.  Commodities do not have counterparty risk if one takes delivery, but there are storage risks.
6165  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Android Bitcoin Wallet on: March 13, 2011, 02:03:21 PM
The problem Goonie has is that both BitCoinJ and the official BitCoin implementation store block headers in RAM. That's ~5mb per year of operation when stored without overheads. But in practice all implementations do have overheads so it's more than that.

That's probably because modern OS's can be trusted to handle any ram overusage by some form of virtual memory paging, but Android doesn't do this.  So some form of substitute needs to be created.  Perhaps bitcoinj can be modified to treat the blockchain as a series of records, of say 500 blocks apiece, and only keep the latest one in ram; and the rest as flat files on storage.  Odds are high that it would be rare that bitcoinj would have to check back farther than a couple months for anything, so beyond 20 such files, the client could then hash the entire blockgroupfile so that it could recheck it if it needed to redownload it from a support server.  Such a server could support thousands of such client, as downloads would be uncommon.

In fact, this might be a good feature for the main client.  No need for a regular client to prune at all, and even keeping the headers would become optional if it had the small database of archived blockchain hashes.
6166  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Android Bitcoin Wallet on: March 13, 2011, 01:36:36 PM
Yes the blockchain handling in BitCoinJ needs a lot of work. It's not just storage. It's handling of chain splits (reorgs). I'm working on reorgs first before storage because the chance of encountering a reorg gets much higher when you're keeping a permanent record of the chain.

I'm surprised an Android client came out so fast, but it's great to see anyway, even if it's still early days. If people could work together on it that'd be even better.
I was looking into the chain storage and as far as I see it you'd just need a few recent blocks to track transactions you're interested in. I'd keep them in a stubbed "quarantine" chain as long as I'm not satisfied that they were confirmed, and then stub them off at ~10 confirmations, and just store the potential inputs for transactions I'm going to send. It's just that right now I'm swamped with 2 theses, and I wont be able to actually implement it for some time...

That has been called 'pruning' by others.  It was intended by design for a future 'lightweight' client that could still stand alone, without the need to trust a remote server.
6167  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Options for offline-only users? on: March 13, 2011, 05:14:04 AM
In another thread I was making the analogy that you'd have a local network inside a submarine and the crew wanted to transfer bitcoins to eachother but there might be an occasion when the crew would want to buy a shipment of stuff from a city so ever so often the sub would emerge onto the water surface where the sub would them be in radio range to send the bitcoins. From the feedback that I got it sounded like you can't have a segregated bitcoin network like in my example as it would cause double spending?

Not really true in this case.  The risk of double spending is if there is a person on the sub trying to send coins from a wallet to another person on the sub, while another person in the greater Internet has a copy of that same wallet trying to spend those same bitcoins.  This excludes the possibility that the sub was trying to generate while under water, which would be futile and therefore should be suspect anyway.  There would still be a near zero risk that coins could be double spent on the sub itself.  A disconnected client is at risk of a double spend, but a disconnected client can certainly itself spend.
6168  Bitcoin / Hardware wallets / Re: Android Bitcoin Wallet on: March 13, 2011, 05:03:26 AM
If the user is just spending, does he need the blockchain?

No, not really.  But any independent client will need to have access to a full blockchain at some point in order to even know that it has any bitcoins to spend.

What about a remote blockchain?  A symlink over the Internet, or a blockchain 'server' that can scan the blockchain for these Android clients whenever the Internet is available.
6169  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why Is Getting Bitcoin "Accepted" As A Form Of Payment So Important??? on: March 13, 2011, 04:55:56 AM
Why try to change bitcoin from what it already is? A store of value.

Personally, I'm not looking for a store of value.  I want a low-cost, non-reversible, resilient means of Internet payment.  Bitcoin does that better than gold or silver, so that's why I work towards its success.

Indeed.  Currencies, in general, make for poor forms of savings.  That's not why they exist.  Bitcoin exists as an Internet cash equivalent, and if performs that function very well.  If you are looking for a store of value, there are much better choices.
6170  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin: Disaster Proof? on: March 12, 2011, 04:27:22 AM

Yeah wee are merely talking about disasters, not catastrophic failure of the planet. But maybe we could raise a bouty to place a node on the moon, for extra redundancy, lol.


It will some time before a node could exist on the Moon, and the SoL delay would mean that any generators on the Moon would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Low Earth orbit is doable now, but neither option actually protects the blockchain from a solar flare.  The current model  is easily as safe as can be expected.
6171  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What if one Bitcoin was worth the same as one share Berkshire Hathaway? on: March 12, 2011, 04:22:27 AM
I guess we need a poll on when we reach parity with BRK.A. I'd say by 2025.

Not in my lifetime.
6172  Other / Archival / Re: Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested :) on: March 12, 2011, 04:18:34 AM
Would anyone buy cigarettes for bitcoin ?

Not that I would buy or sell them - I dont smoke either   Smiley

If the price were competitive, I'm sure people would..

Pay Kentucky taxes instead of Illinois taxes?
6173  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Poll: What are your Bitcoin Client Feature Request / wishlist? on: March 11, 2011, 05:27:26 AM
I would like to be able to see my client running on Fluxbox WM.  I'm guessing that it tries to minimize to a tray, but does not show up in the Fluxbox tray.  Some command line switch to prevent auto-minimizing would be helpful.
6174  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Poll: What are your Bitcoin Client Feature Request / wishlist? on: March 11, 2011, 04:30:00 AM
How about a 1000 BTC bonus for new users?  That way everyone will have bitcoins.  I'll ask Gavin.   Grin

Great idea!  Then I'll write a script that installs a new client, transfers the free 1000 BTC to my other client, deletes the new client and repeats forever!  Give everyone free money, and we will all be rich!
6175  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoins catch on, will people get used to having so few? on: March 08, 2011, 06:53:39 AM
Talk to an elderly Canadian, and you're as likely to hear them talk about feet and miles as United States people do today, though Canada has been metric for some time now. It'll take a couple of generations to make such a massive conversion, I suspect.

Canadians are forced to use metric when dealing with their governments, much like Europeans.  Where I live, the freeway signs have both miles and kilometers, and so does my car's speedometer.  Everyone else's speedometer has a kilometer scale in the US as well, because the government forced that upon the auto industry decades ago.  Yet miles remains the dominate scale; because then and now, Americans prefer to think in miles.
6176  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoins catch on, will people get used to having so few? on: March 08, 2011, 06:46:55 AM
Just use the wonderful metric system and stop worrying about this subject.

I don't think most people will have a probably with mBTC, uBTC, etc.

Metric sucks, and would fail without explicit government advocacy and support.  Case in point, most Americans grew up learning American Standard (very close to Imperial, but not quite) because all the adults used it, and also learned Metric in school, because the government wanted people to use it.  Most everyone, if they have a choice, prefer American Standard in regards to the kinds of useful metrics lay people use; i.e. miles for traveling distances, feet/yards for sight distances, and inches and fractions of inches for fine distances.  The fact that an adult can convert traveling distances (km) into sight distances (meters) in their head is generally a useless feature, because people rarely have any reason to do so.  

American here, confirming Metric does not suck, and is in fact superior to that of the American Standard.


Neerus sucks, too.

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And I would like to see where you got your information on "Most everyone, if they have a choice, prefer American Standard".


Look around you.  Unless you are an engineer or some kind of scientist, the majority of people who are around you at this very moment have been educated in both systems, and continue to choose American Standard for daily functions.  They can do so because they are free to do so.  Their local, state and federal governments have to deal in whatever metric that the pubic insists on using.

Quote

Also, the fact that every other country in the world has adopted the Metric System seems to contradict that statement.

Edit: Ok, most counties have. Myanmar and Liberia appear to be exceptions.


I hope you realize this is not an argument in favor of the free choice of the Metric Standard, since in most (if not every) cases, the public must deal in Metric because either their governments refuse to deal in any other system, Metric is the only system of measurements taught to children, or more likely both.  I can understand how Metric was better in Europe than the differing standards that were similar to Imperial, but different than the nation-state next door.  But that is not the case in the US, as we have been using the same standard across a land and culture vastly more intertwined than anything Europe could replicate before the European Union, but the Metric Standard was a great leap forward for interoperability and clear communications.  Not because it was a base 10 standard, but simply because it was a cross-border standard.  As far as consistency, American Standard is broken.  But it's never really been about consistency, but utility.  And for Americans, being the only significant population taught two different standards of measurements, the utility remains decidedly on the side of the American Standard.  Brokenness aside, American Standard is mostly a base 2 (or base 4) standard based on fractions, which is easier for lay people (and particularly those who are math illiterate) to understand intuitively.  For example; Gallon (1/1), Half-Gallon (1/2). Quart (1/4), Pint (1/8), Cup (1/16), Gill (half-cup, 1/32).  Beyond either end of the range of that example, things get broken, but this range alone covers most of the useful range (utility) for everyday measurements of liquid volume.  We do the same thing to all other units less explicitly, but we do it.  Half-mile, Quarter-mile, half-inch, quarter-inch, half-pound, ounce (1/16th), dram (1/256th lb), etc.  The greatest advantage Metric had that led to it's adoption in Europe, and most of the former colonies of Europe, was it's cross border interoperability.  Metric did not have an advantage over American Standard in this regard, so it has never gain common usage outside of professional fields.  The fact that Metric doesn't dominate in a large society free to choose it is evidence that it was not superior enough for a free public to choose it over what they already used.
6177  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Reasons Satoshi probably is, or isn't Julian Assange? on: March 08, 2011, 06:09:34 AM
So as far as markets are concerned I'm a libertarian, but I have enough expertise in politics and history to understand that a free market ends up as monopoly unless you force them to be free.

Would the creator of Bitcoin say something like that?

Good, God.  I would hope not.  Talk about 'newspeak'; free market = monopoly and force = freedom.  If I were king of Wikileaks, I'd still choose him to be the frontman, for no other reason than to stir controversy to keep the ire of governments turned in his direction and away from what my left hand is doing next.  Much like the president of the universe in 'The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy'.
6178  Other / Off-topic / Re: RE: But don't kid yourself, Atlas. Everyone gives a fuck. - Life and Humanity on: March 08, 2011, 05:48:32 AM
Ayn Rand had some good ideas, but "Objectivism" wasn't among them. And Atlas Shrugged is best understood as a caricature.

Atlas Shrugged is best understood as a political philosophy disguised as a work of fiction.  All the main characters are representative of different classes of people, which is why they all seem so sterile, so completely vile, or utterly perfect.  Pretty much all of Ayn Rand's work followed this pattern.  It's still a pretty impressive opus, considering English wasn't her first language.
6179  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Frustration at the Digital Money Forum on: March 08, 2011, 05:28:04 AM
You could also see a case where banks decide bitcoin is a good reserve currency, but instead of using the current block chain they start their own, again, providing initial capital (and an advantage) to the banks by having early blocks generate large numbers of coins (this is possible because the number of coins generated per block is just an agreement enforced by code, they control the code and the block chain so they make whatever rules they want). 

You're thinking, but there is no economic reason for any financial institution (bank or otherwise) to choose bitcoin as a reserve currency and then start another blockchain, for any blockchain requires a great deal of system overhead.  A bank might choose Bitcoin as the backing for a digital or physical currency of their own design and administration, but it would not likely be another blockchain.  If there is a central trusted party (the bank) there are other ways to handle the double-spend problem better than a parallel blockchain.
6180  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: If Bitcoins catch on, will people get used to having so few? on: March 08, 2011, 05:20:53 AM
Just use the wonderful metric system and stop worrying about this subject.

I don't think most people will have a probably with mBTC, uBTC, etc.

Metric sucks, and would fail without explicit government advocacy and support.  Case in point, most Americans grew up learning American Standard (very close to Imperial, but not quite) because all the adults used it, and also learned Metric in school, because the government wanted people to use it.  Most everyone, if they have a choice, prefer American Standard in regards to the kinds of useful metrics lay people use; i.e. miles for traveling distances, feet/yards for sight distances, and inches and fractions of inches for fine distances.  The fact that an adult can convert traveling distances (km) into sight distances (meters) in their head is generally a useless feature, because people rarely have any reason to do so. 
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