I was just playing about on prcdice.eu - I deposited some dogecoin and wanted to try "investing" it. I made a bunch of notes on my experience. Maybe it's of interest:

My first problem is that I see no mention of investing anywhere on the site. I guess I'm meant to use the full casino site, not the dice site, but I couldn't find a link to it, or any hint that that's where I need to go. There's a big red 'investments' button on the account page that I missed.

My Internet connection was being slow at one point. The dice site loaded up, but the "provably fair" tab was all blank, except for the "num.rolls" field which said "Nan". My Nan is dead, so I don't know why it said that. All the other fields were empty, and editable. I was able to type whatever I liked into the server seed fields for instance. That doesn't seem right.

I finally got it to load right, set a client seed, and made 3 rolls, then verified the rolls.

Here's a little bash command I made that verified the rolls:


It seemed to be working, so I set a new, different server seed and played some more. At one point I tried betting less than 1 dogecoin, and it didn't let me. I was curious whether it had counted that as a roll in the "num.rolls" counter, so I clicked 'generate new seed' hoping to be able to check whether it skipped a nonce or not. But nothing happened. I guess my Internet connection dropped out again.

I reloaded the page, went back to the 'provably fair' tab and saw the 'client seed' was reset to something random. It would be good if the client seed would stay set once I set it, even after a reload.

I tried clicking 'generate new seed' again, but it told me 'you need to be logged in'. I was already logged in. There are "account" and "logoff" buttons at the top. So I don't know why it would say that.

I reloaded again. The client seed changed again. I still see "account" and "logoff" buttons at the top, and see my dogecoin balance when I pick dogecoin from the dropdown menu. This time I could randomize and verify my seeds. It all worked OK, and no nonce was skipped when I tried to bet too low.

Edit: the 'history' report on the investment page uses the word 'deposit' when it means 'invest'. That could be confusing. "deposit" is moving coins from my wallet to my PRCdice balance, and "invest" is moving coins from the PRCdice balance to the bankroll. It's better not to confuse the two activities.

Edit2: when I go to divest, it again uses the word 'withdraw'. I wouldn't do that. Also, there's no "divest all" option. If someone was playing as I was divesting it would be hard to divest my whole investment and you'll be left with lots of "dust" investors.

Edit3: I copy/pasted the "amount available" on the divest dialog, submitted it, and it went away. It turns out my investment shrunk a little while I was doing it, so I was trying to divest more than I had. There was no error message of any kind - it just didn't work. I tried divesting much more than I had to see if there was an error message - there wasn't. I tried again to divest my exact whole amount and that time it worked. I checked the history and although I only divested once it shows two "withdrawals" and two commission payments, all at the exact same second:



Edit4: I checked the numbers. It appears that both 'withdrawals' and both commission charges actually happened. I deposited
10099999 and made 3001 by betting:

(+ 1800 -900 560 -280 -140 -70 30 1 4000 -2000 -1000 -500 -250 250 1000 -500 -250 250 250 500 -250 2000 -1000 -500 -250 1000 -500 -250)
3001

Adding those two to the 4 divest figures:

(+ 10099999 3001 66918.84 -6691.884 835.4176 -83.54176)
10163978.83184

gives my current balance.

So I'm confused what the 835.4176 represents.

https://prcdice.eu/account shows: Dogecoin    10,163,979.00000000
ie. is has rounded my balance up to a whole number.

But when I click 'withdraw', I see: Available balance: D 10,163,978.83184000

Why round differently in different places?

Edit5: I tried withdrawing my balance. The withdraw page showed a 'withdrawal pending' message, but I see no way to get back to the account page. Maybe having it pop up like other windows do, rather than taking me to a dead-end "ok" page.

I see only a single "emergency withdrawal address" box. There should be one per currency. I was able to put my dogecoin address in there, but it would be better to be able to set my bitcoin one too.

That's a very good point. We had people depositing 1000 BTC or more at once to JD, and it would sit on the hot wallet until it had one confirmation. Then it would be moved offsite. That was a risk in that anyone hacking the server would be able to steal it while it had 0 confirmations.

Of course anyone hacking the server could also see their own "server seed" and so could drain the whole bankroll over time by "getting lucky" with their rolls. Perhaps the presence of 1000 BTC sitting in the hot wallet would be too much for them to resist, and so they would make themselves known immediately, costing the site "only" 1000 BTC instead of draining the whole bankroll over time.

It really depends on the operator.

"Bent" operators may decide to close the scheme as soon as the rate of new deposits slows to below the rate of outgoing payments. If their aim is to run off with the coins then it makes sense to stop when the available "haul" is as big as possible.

Even a legit operator may decide to close the scheme as soon as there are not enough coins available to make a regular payout. So long as that is announced up front I think that's OK. We just need to know what the rules are.

In this case I think he has said that he will run the scheme indefinitely, just skipping hourly payouts if he doesn't have enough to make a full payout.

That's wrong. All deposit addresses are in the JD hot wallet, and are used to facilitate withdrawals. If the hot wallet balance gets too high, the excess is moved off-site. There's no point making an extra transaction per deposit to move the coins off the deposit address. That's just a waste of blockchain space and serves no purpose. So long as nobody expects the balance on their deposit address to be the same as the balance on their account (and why would they when they're playing off-chain?) I don't see a problem with it.


From what I've read, PRC uses offline addresses for deposits. I don't like that idea; I would rather use deposits to service withdrawals, because that requires less manual intervention. If every deposit goes to an offline address, you'll be constantly moving offline coins into the hot wallet to service withdrawals. If the offline wallets are truly offline it's a pain to access them, and so limiting that access as much as possible is a good thing.


I don't see what purpose "sweeping" achieves. The balance on your deposit address will be zero most of the time, rather than effectively random, but so what? Nobody really expects their balance to be reflected in their deposit address. What if you win more than you deposit? Would you expect coins to move to your deposit address? How often? Every time you bet? The whole point of off-chain play is that it doesn't pollute the blockchain.

I don't think so. He mentioned that he has proof that Cryptory isn't a Ponzi.

Here's exactly how he said it. It's not very well written, but I think it's clear what he is trying to say:


He claims to be "trying to prove" they are not a Ponzi, but I haven't seen him present any evidence for that.

All I've seen is "still paying", which is proof of nothing.

Earlier you mentioned that you had proof that Cryptory wasn't a scam.

Are you ready to share that proof?

According to Cryptory's profit calculator, the return from the mining equipment bought today stays constant for the next five years.

Do you think that is reasonable?

You're misunderstanding.

When you deposit, you send coins to a specific address purely so that the site can track who is sending them the coins. Otherwise they wouldn't know who to credit. It's not "your address" other than that it's the particular address you deposit to. When your coins arrive, they are credited to your account. The balance on your deposit address is meaningless.

When you come to withdraw, the withdrawal will be made from whatever addresses are available. Maybe your deposit address is in an offline wallet, and so a different address is used to pay you out. That way you'll get your withdrawal without the balance on your deposit address going down.

You can't look at your deposit address on blockchain.info, see it has 2 BTC and say "hey, I want my 2 BTC".

This is how Just-Dice worked too - any site with a shared wallet will be the same.

Think about it this way: suppose you deposit 1 BTC, double it, and withdraw 2 BTC. What should your deposit address show then? minus 1 BTC? It's like when you deposit a dollar bill into the bank. You don't get to protest when the guy after you in line withdraws 'your' dollar bill. Alternatively, after withdrawing a different dollar bill, you don't get to peer into the vault, locate your bill, and scream that they ripped you off because they still have "your" one.

Most miners struggle to ever earn enough coins to pay for their hardware.

At Cryptory, you can deposit 100 BTC, they buy mining hardware with it, and over the next 300 or so days you earn 0.32 BTC per day. After a little over 600 days your hardware has paid for itself!

That's pretty amazing - you've broken even in less than a year.

But wait - it gets better. You can then withdraw your original 100 BTC. Presumably Cryptory sells your 100 BTC mining rig, that has been working flat out for almost a year, and is a year out of date, and they magically get the full purchase price for it and send it to you. Instantly.

So your magic mining rig not only paid for itself in 300 days, you were then able to sell it for its original purchase price. You've doubled your money!

That sounds almost too good to be true, doesn't it?

Yes, they were all different cases. I was listing some of the pretend ways that hyips say they make money.

What they have in common is that they are all lies.

Can you find any evidence that any of the people bringing the Cryptory scam to light are admins of other scams? I think you'll find we're mostly well known and respected members of this forum. We attack scams here because the scams attack Bitcoin, this forum, and its newbie users who might be dumb enough to lose their coins to them.

Earlier you mentioned that you had proof that Cryptory wasn't a scam.

Are you ready to share that proof?

No, if someone posts thinking that Cryptory is a real investment producing real returns for its investors, that doesn't make them a shill.

But when they ignore all evidence to the contrary it's hard to understand what other motivation they have for not listening to reason.

When someone posts:


what are we to think? How can a satisfied customer know that withdrawals will always work? He can't.

This guy has no doubts whatsoever about the fact that Cryptory are able to offer constant regular large returns from a single investment which they say they use to buy mining hardware.

Anyone who has ever mined knows that the returns from mining hardware go down pretty consistently over time, yet Cryptory is able to guarantee that mining hardware they purchase today on your behalf will continue giving the same returns for the next 5 years!

So in the face of that, what do you think about someone who continues to say "they will keep paying always"?

Yes, you are spot on.

This kind of thing is bad for Bitcoin, because when it inevitably turns out to be just another scam, it won't hurt the idiots selling their souls for $1 per post here, and it won't hurt the people running the scam.

It will hurt the people stupid enough to believe that this could be real (but you could argue they deserve it), but mostly it will hurt Bitcoin's image.

When MtGox went bankrupt due to massive mismanagement or other dodginess it hurt Bitcoin's image. The media portrayed it as Bitcoin going bust, and the uninformed masses ate it up.

This will be the same if it gets big enough, so let's continue calling it out, and marking the shills as untrustworthy whenever they make new accounts. Anything that helps end this scam before it does any more harm is a good thing.

I don't know that the operator isn't going to run away with the funds, but I don't know that about any site that accepts coins. CoinBase, BitStamp, whatever dice sites are still running - they all have that risk.

The problem I have with most Ponzi schemes is that the operator lies about where the "profits" are coming from. They tell you you're investing in mining equipment, or funding their day trading on exchanges, investing in oil rigs, or whatever else they can think of, when in fact it is just a Ponzi.

This guy says "I'm not investing in anything. I'm going to use new deposits to pay out old investors, I'm going to take 1% of each new deposit for myself, and if new desposits dry up, you're out of luck".

That's not a good thing to get involved in, but I don't see how it's any worse than rolling dice against a 1% house edge.

There are 3 risks:

1) the game's odds are stacked against you. You're likely to lose
2) the site operator may abscond with the bankroll before the game is over
3) the site operator may be lying about how the game works

1 and 2 are risks with any game
3 is the risk that isn't present here, and it's the absence of that risk that I commend him for.

Another weird glitch.  The API reported a trade at $704.55 when there were many sell orders below $700 which didn't get matched.

What's going on here?

That's probably the only smart thing you've done in this whole thread.

Withdraw now while you still can.

I've had 3 people so far being unable to get into their accounts to withdraw funds.

I asked all 3 "if the emergency address 1(xxx) still OK?"

1 said "yes", 2 said "no", but 1 of those 2 later regained access to it.

So 1/3 or 2/3 depending on how you count it have access according to my tiny sample.

People are less careful with Bitcoin than you might imagine.

Many people lost (or omitted to make) their 2FA code backups, for example.

Not sure what to make of this:

Their own facebook page has reports from customers being unable to withdraw for 3.5 days now:

This address:



Looked like this in 2009:

The photos they recently posted were from video of an Infineon plant in Germany, and were taken in 2010.

This is just a regular Ponzi with slicker than average marketing.