Then how do you keep track of which incoming payments are for which user, and make sure not to credit them twice in the event of a blockchain re-org or transaction malleability?

The account system takes care of all that for you. I wouldn't want to have to reinvent the wheel.

I dug up more of the chat surrounding the events. At one point he comments:

2013-10-04 05:34:20 <mechs> wow already lost 3 BTC in my new investment
2013-10-04 05:34:40 <mechs> investing here really does make you a gambler
...
2013-10-04 05:57:31 <mechs> omg, my profits down 5 BTC already - investing is rough

Here's the log: http://pastie.org/pastes/9338997/text


Yeah, I thought that was a little odd too. It wasn't me taking his coins after all.

The biggest one is fully withdrawn now, leaving:

736, 692, 378, 314, 186, 143, 142, 133, 119, 73, 71, 52, 43, 41, 30, 29, 27, 26, 25, 24, 22, 18, 17, 15, 14, 2*13, 3*12, 11, 2*10, 2*9, 3*8, 2*6, 4*5, 5*4, 12*3, 14*2, 57*1

Yes. At Just-Dice I used bitcoind, and simply did getAddressesByAccount() to see if there was already an address associated with a userid, and getAccountAddress() to get one if there wasn't. Then you can listAccounts() to see the balance for each account with the required number of confirmations and move() to move the funds from a player's 'account' to the main hot wallet account so you don't count it twice.

Recently I heard Gavin saying that the 'accounts' feature in bitcoind is likely to be removed soon, so I guess this isn't a good idea to use any more.

Exactly.

Or in other words:

Cryptory is a Ponzi that is still in the "gathering victims" phase. It hasn't stopped paying yet, but could do so at any time.

I don't think we disagree about its status. Ponzis have two phases:

1) pay out, and collect more victims
2) stop paying out

It is currently in phase 1, as you correctly say yourself.

We only differ in our conclusions.

I conclude "so stay away - one day, possibly today, they will stop paying".

You seem to conclude "so give them your money". I don't know why, but suspect the unwritten part is "... so they can give some of it to me"

I give negative trust to anyone I see promoting a scam whether it is Cryptory or not. Check my post history and you'll see I've warned people about many other scams, going back to BS&T over a year ago.

It is OK to run a Ponzi scheme if you make it clear that that is what you are doing.

I don't hate Ponzi schemes.

It is not OK to run a Ponzi scheme and claim that your victims are "investing in Bitcoin" or "buying mining hashrate" or any other such lie.

That is dishonest, scammy behaviour.

One day this Ponzi will stop paying out, just like all the rest. People will lose out as a result. I'm trying to warn them about this.

You, on the other hand, are encouraging them to get involved.

You can keep repeating that if you like, but it isn't true.

I didn't rate you negatively because you say Cryptory is paying. Cryptory is paying. That is true. All Ponzis pay until they stop paying, and so Cryptory is no different in that regard.

I rated you negatively because you promote a scam here.

OK, so now I see what happened.  He withdrew 7022 to the 'mechs' account, invested it, and someone won a bit. By the time he divested, only 7016 was left. Here are the invest/divest/deposit/withdraw actions on the 'mechs' account around the same time:

Notice the "n:" values - that's the nonce. He made a lot of "dust" bets between the big ones. He also kept withdrawing his whole balance to the "mechs" account, and redepositing it to the "fuckit" account. The "mechs" account was blocked from betting.

Here's a list of the deposits and withdrawals on the "fuckit" account"

I just received a couple of private messages (click to make it bigger):



It sounds like people are being paid to promote this scam here.

If nothing else, this should be a red flag.

Edit: for the record, I don't remove negative trust unless I believe I gave it by mistake. If I see you scamming, or promoting a scam, I will give you negative trust. If you then stop scamming or stop promoting a scam, that doesn't change anything. You're still not trustworthy, and still have a history of running or promoting a scam. If you don't want negative trust from me I recommend acting in a trustworthy manner.

Yes, you are. Look:


That is you encouraging people to give their money to Cryptory.

I guess there are two ways you could be right:

1) you're not encouraging people to give their money to Cryptory - but I've just proved that you are
2) Cryptory isn't a scam

So is (2) what you're arguing? Do you think they have somehow found a way to double your money in less than a year from Bitcoin mining? Some way that mining gear you buy today can produce the same incredible returns for the next 5 years? Even if the network difficulty increases? Even after the block reward halves? Seriously? No, I didn't think so.

Would you like to make a bet on whether Cryptory ends up defaulting on their payments?

I honestly think you should be ashamed of yourself.

You are encouraging people to get involved in a scam just so you can make more for yourself.

You're missing the point.

What if they keep paying for 5 years and then go bust?

That just means they have even more victims than if they go bust after 3 years, and leave even more people even further out of pocket.

The longer they run before going bust, the worse it is for everyone.

I know they cannot keep paying exponentially increasing returns forever from mining.

If you don't know that then I don't know what to tell you.

Do you know that returns from mining halve every 4 years?

Check the return chart on Cryptory. Tell it you want to invest for 5 years.

Do you see a dip anywhere in that 5 year chart it gives you? No! Because the returns don't come from mining.

All Ponzi schemes pay (with proof) at the start.

Then one day they stop paying.

By that time, it's too late.

The time to warn people about this is *before* more idiots deposit their coins, not after.

Check any Ponzi thread on the forums here. It's always the same story. The operator and his shills deny any claims that it's a Ponzi by saying "check the blockchain - we are paying so it's not a scam". Then they stop paying, leaving a bunch of people complaining, and the operators move on to their next thread.

"We are paying" is absolutely not evidence that they will keep paying.

I only recently found this cryptory scam. I discovered a small number of forum accounts were advertising it all over the forum, so I rated them negatively.

I didn't rate you for "speaking out". I rated you for recommending an obvious scam.

Maybe you don't know it's a scam yet. That doesn't really matter. The fact remains that it is one, and if people trust your recommendation they stand a good chance of losing their coin. So by rating you I'm warning your potential victims.


I'm not saying anything is unreal.

Here's what I'm saying:

1) cryptory is a ponzi scheme that pays old investors using new investor deposits
2) ponzi schemes inevitably go bust due to the laws of mathematics
3) when they do, they leave many people who trusted them out of pocket
4) they "guarantee" huge returns, but they're lying
5) so it's a scam
6) you're promoting this scam
7) so you're not to be trusted

Notice at no point am I saying "they aren't currently paying returns" - they *are* paying returns. They're paying *your* returns out of the deposits that your victims make. That's why you need an every increasing supply of new victims, to fund you future returns.

Do you disagree with any of the above 7 points specifically?

It's a scam with a promotional video. You can't guarantee to double your money in 216 days by mining. CRYPTORY guarantees to double your money *and* pay off the cost of the mining gear in 216 days, no matter what the network difficulty does in the coming months.

Most miners struggle to make back their initial investment at all, but these guys guarantee to make it back twice over, and very quickly.

Obvious scam.

"Someone lost 7k on a 96% bet? Wow!"

It seems amazing until you realise that he made 27 such bets in a row, and won the first 26 of them...