Bitcoin Forum
July 05, 2024, 03:19:18 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 [327] 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 »
6521  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mining cartel attack on: December 15, 2010, 11:16:54 PM
You might be able to leverage this technique to gain an advantage over the network with less than 50% of total processor power under certain ideal conditions; but you will still need something very close to 50% even if your attack conditions are perfect.  It's also an attack vector that is unsustainable, as the first non-cartel block to get accepted by the network breaks any prior computational advantage and renders the cartel's prior work towards the next block based upon their delayed block worthless.  In the end, I would say that the conditions required to make this work would be nearly as difficult for any group as simply aquiring the resources to take 50% of the network.  Either way it's at a nation-state level already, and we are not a particularly large network.
6522  Economy / Marketplace / BitcoinGateway on: December 15, 2010, 10:32:21 PM
Is this gateway broken for Visa prepaid debit cards?  I can't seem to get past the popup.
6523  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Questions about inflation enforcement on: December 15, 2010, 09:09:19 PM

The problem is the same whether mining is collaborative or otherwise.  If bitcoin gets a million users but the reward for mining is 0 BTC as it is planned in the future (plus fees no one has any incentive to pay beyond a token penny to set their transaction apart from spam), why would Joe bother?

First, the day that comes that a reward is zero is beyond our lifetimes, and only a theoretical issue to us.  Second, the priorities system gives more priority to transactions that pay a higher fee.  So the blocksize limit, whatever it is in the future, functions as artifical scarcity as well as limit the bandwidth/storage consumption of the network.  If Bitcoin were to become as regularly used as Paypal, even a 10 meg top limit is likely to delay transactions of the smallest fee, creating a natural market price for the value of a near term transaction.  A future client can look at the most recent several blocks, and produce an average transaction fee recommendation for a user to get his transactions processed in a timely manner.  This premium on speed will likely be in constant flux.

Perhaps we should consider a "flushing block" every so often, wherein the top limit is uncapped for that single block, to allow all persistant transactions to clear.  This could be done once every retarget, permitting the network to catch up, so that even free transactions have a high end limit of two weeks of wait.
6524  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Questions about inflation enforcement on: December 15, 2010, 08:55:53 PM
I'm not sure I understand the wisdom behind capping it at 21 million blocks, or by reducing the production rate.  Inflation isn't intrinsically a bad thing, it is only bad when it is used to swindle people out of their savings.

Can someone explain what would be the harm in allowing 50 BTC to be created per block forever?  Even that is still an inflation rate that asymptotically trends toward zero, when considered as a proportion of the entire economy.  And the inflation rate will be vastly disproportionate to the expected deflation that can be guaranteed if Bitcoin experiences a surge in popularity.


The point is that the creation of new  coins is mathmaticly similar to the mining of gold, as the mining continues, the difficulty of doing so increases until the mine is played out.  Also, there is the problem of initial distribution of a new currency, if the rate was continuous then it would take decades for the inflation rate to drop into the range of a rational currency, say 2-3% APR.  The halving system used by bitcoin will have distributed half of all the coins by 2013, 75% by 2017, and will be into an inflation rate preferable to any fiat currency on Earth today.  We wouldn't want to wait a couple decades before Bitcoin was preferable to a regular national currency issued by a government with "target inflation rate" of 2%.

Quote

I see two parallel phenomena.  The more people adopt Bitcoin, the more one BTC is going to be worth, but the less worthwhile it will be to generate coins due to the increased competition (difficulty).  Both of these growths will be in proportion, and that should be a good thing.  But if the incentive to generate coin goes to zero (transaction fees aside), what's the point?  You're going to have the casual user disinterested in generating blocks, leaving all the block generation to a small class of professional administrators of large banks of GPU's (may as well call them "bankers" for short!).

I recognize there's transaction fees, but the way I understand it, the maximum block size is imposed by fiat... and unless the maximum block size adjusts in some systematic fashion in response to the transaction fees, they serve no purpose other than to prevent spam...


The max block size is not imposed by fiat, but by agreement to a convention.  You could change that in your client right now and produce blocks just fine, but unless at least 50% of generators agree with you, whenever your client produces a block that defies this agreed convention it will be ignored by those who do.

Quote

 there's no market force that would compel people to pay transaction fees in a quantity that would incentivize people to contribute computational power.  If I have misunderstood, someone please correct me and provide an address for a small donation!


Yes there are such market forces, at least there will be once the rate of transactions is averaging over 50KB per block.  Some fees are voluntary, but increase your priority, allowing your transaction to be processed in a timely manner.  There are numberous cases in real life wherein a delay of a couple of hours is unacceptable, and it would be worthwhile to tack on a transaction fee of .02 bitcoin in order to jump the line of freebies.  If you are tyring todonate to a cause, or just moving funds around between multiple clients of your own (working client to a savings client, for example) then you can probably wait a few hours, or a few days, for the transaction to get processed at the network's own convience.  Buying a car, however, would likely justify the fee for speed.

Other fees are not voluntary, but are required of more sophisticated transactions than the simple send X bitcoin to Y.
Quote

The way I see it, incentivizing the average joe is critical... If Joe might solve a block once a year as difficulty increases, and his trouble is worth the equivalent of two bucks, why would he bother?  If nobody but a few heavyweight GPU "bankers" are in charge, then the whole point of decentralizing becomes broken.  Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Bart lost the class president election to Martin Prince - all because everyone was so sure Bart would win hands down that nobody voted for him.


I think that you misunderstand the point of decentralization in the context of currency.  It's not the idea of a bank that is the problem, but the monopolies that cnetral banks have in our modern world.  Bitcoin banks will likely exist before very long, as Mybitcoin.com and Mtgox.com already offer some of the most important functions of a bank, but none of them can manipulate the system to their own advantage over any other peer, be they a user or another bank.

Quote

On the other hand, if generating a block becomes a once-in-a-lifetime affair due to a surge in popularity, perhaps 50 BTC would be a prize worthy of a lottery.  Either way, whether the incentive to generate blocks comes in the form of transaction fees or inflation, it is still a cost imposed upon the entire user base as a whole and it is a cost that goes up (in the form of difficulty) at the same time.  Why not let the reward climb with it?

Those two incentives are not equivalant, transaction fees do not affect the value of all other bitcoins held by others.  Increasing the monetary base does.
6525  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: infinite increasing of the chain size on: December 15, 2010, 07:28:04 PM

Quote
Quote
Example, after a million blocks, block 1000001 could be a block that replaces all blocks 2 thru 1000000, so one may only need a block chain of 1 -> 1000001 -> 1000002 etc... until two million:  1 -> 1000001 -> 2000001 -> 2000002 etc...


Feel free to write such a client.  If there are technical issues with such a shortcut, I'm sure that you will figure it out.

By looking at what's left, I suppose that leads me to figure that keeping the headers (the proof of work for the size of the blockchain, including the hashes) is pretty vital to establishing which is the correct (longest in terms of PoW) blockchain.

Yes.  The current system cannot function without the blockchain headers, at a minimum.  That shouldn't discourage you from seeking another solution.
6526  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Exploiting Special Properties of Bitcoin For Uses Other Than Currency on: December 15, 2010, 06:56:33 PM
What alternative uses could exist that wouldn't detract from the primary function?
6527  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Version 0.3.18 on: December 15, 2010, 06:39:41 PM

I do think there should be a spot for arbitrary data to be sent along with transactions, but I think it should be VERY limited - and by that, I mean no more than either 32 bytes, meant as a sender's transaction reference.  32 bytes should be enough to fit a short URL, or at most, a 256-bit hash.  I know somebody gained infamy for thinking 640Kbytes should be good enough for "anybody", but this isn't the same.  I think it's fair to say that 2^256 possible references should be enough for anybody - Bitcoin should not offer payloads of any kind other than bitcoins!


I agree, as do many others.  There is great risk in trying to adapt Bitcoin into some kind of multi-tool.  Simple tools that can be used in conjunction is what made Unix great, and both Linux & the Internet great by proxy.  Bitcoin should be a currency system, and leave the othe innovations to other tools.  The argument that some have made that another blockchain would take generation from Bitcoin (or vise versa) is a false one.  People will contribute to what is important to them.  Neither distributed.net, nor any other of the prior distributed work projects, makes any attempt to compensate participants.  If a p2p DNS is important, people will volunteer both clocktime and bitcoin donations to support it.
6528  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Base-less Block Chains (Broadcast-only bitcoin) on: December 15, 2010, 04:45:41 PM
Bitcoin can already work like this, just not as an absolute.  This is similar to my own 'datacasting' concept.

What is your datacasting concept?


Use the search function.  Look for 'datacasting' and 'Dash7'

Quote

One reason why I think bitcoin can't work like this is that a client who only saw new blocks wouldn't be able to know whether the transactions contained within were valid or not.  This seems to require balance sheets...

that is the chicken and egg problem, isn't it?  A client that uses balance sheets cannot independently verify transactions based on blocks prior to it's own initial startup, but a client that uses the full blockchain to verify transaction history doesn't need balance sheets.
6529  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Base-less Block Chains (Broadcast-only bitcoin) on: December 15, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
Bitcoin can already work like this, just not as an absolute.  This is similar to my own 'datacasting' concept.
6530  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Point of Sale Technical Issues on: December 15, 2010, 05:32:40 AM

So, in order to buy a coffee in your shop, you first get an bitcoin account in this shop.  And you fund this account on regular basis.  Once a month, for instance.


So a debit account, at a coffee shop?  That's not a faster solution.  It would be easier, an faster, if the retailer was willing to accept the small risk of a double spend attempt and just accept valid transactions on faith.  It would be less risky than accepting personal checks, as well as generally faster.
6531  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Point of Sale Technical Issues on: December 15, 2010, 05:13:36 AM
We're contemplating a point of sale solution for bitcoin.

The issue we're concerned about is transaction processing time.   

If a bitcoin app was running on a smartphone,  how long would the transaction typically take to post  to a coffee shop's bitcoin application?

Obviously, we cannot wait an hour for the transaction to post in order to get our cafe latte.


Just the transaction, would take only a few seconds to wrap the planet via the bitcoin network, (this would take longer in the future with many more nodes than exist today) but if there was an open hotspot in the store (perhaps with all outgoing ports blocked except bitcoin's own) and a running bitcoind locally, it would take longer for the customer to remove his finger from the 'send' button than it would take the store's client to receive & verify the transaction.  From a human perspective, this would be an instant; faster than the quickest credit card authorization.  This kind of check only verifies that the customer owned those recently, but does not check for a double spend attempt.  At the retail level for anything less than $20 in value, the risks and difficulties of a double spend would likely be high enough that there wouldn't be a reason to worry about a double spend attempt.  At any level that would require a credit check under normal circumstances, such as buying a car, would justify a couple of block verifications.

Just checking the transaction without waiting for a block would likely be a lower risk for the retailer than accepting personal checks with an ID.
6532  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Moore's Law on: December 14, 2010, 10:02:05 PM
the cryptographic portions of Bitcoin are somewhat modular, and can be swapped out for other/better/future versions of similar tools with majority consent of the network; no matter the reason for doing so.
6533  Economy / Currency exchange / Re: Want to buy BitCoins for CHF or GBP on: December 14, 2010, 08:44:20 PM
I'd like to buy some (maybe a few hundred) coins using either Swiss Francs or pound sterling, but it seems the existing markets are primarily requiring US dollars.

Does anyone know where I can make such a trade. Is my best bet to use PayPal or something like that to convert my currency into dollars then convert again into BitCoins?

hmm, I collect foriegn notes, and do not have either of those.  Are you willing to go out on a limb and risk sending those notes by international mail?
6534  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Recent floods by MrBurns (17yhRAYKJvVmBh14HMxYRHp2Z4erWgk1ne) on: December 14, 2010, 08:40:07 PM
If there is a 50 kb limit per block, what does that mean when legitimate (non-spam) transaction volume reaches that amount?


Free transactions must wait for another block.  Spamming only consumes space in the block reserved for free transactions, fee paying transactions have space (at increasing fee levels) up to 1 meg at this time.  The 1 meg limit is a hard limit, but much discussion about replacing the hard limit with a more flexible rule has already occurred on this forum.

Quote

 If each transaction averages 270 bytes, that's less than 200 transactions... and if there's guaranteed to exist only a block every few minutes, wouldn't that mean the whole BitCoin network as a whole cannot sustainably commit an average of more than 200 transactions every few minutes?

I believe that the network can sustain a level of about 470 transactions per minute at this time, due to the hard limit.  We know that this is not enough,but these are changable rules.
6535  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: customer experience for purchases with Bitcoin on: December 14, 2010, 08:27:10 PM
What about buyers who don't pay transaction fees. Any risk that they might get held up for too long at the throbber?

As I understand the protocol, transactions are broadcast through the network without regard for transaction fees.

correct

Quote
I assume customers would still get a quick throbber response even without a transaction fee.

It is possible for a client to check that a transaction is valid independently, but it's  impossible to eliminate the risks of a double spend without waiting for comfirmations.  It's possible to reduce such risks without the blockchain, however, by scanning the transaction queue for attempted double spends for a couple seconds before approving the transaction; but the clients can't yet do this, AFAIK.
6536  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: why it doesn't show from what address bitcoins came? on: December 14, 2010, 08:18:35 PM

and I wonder why does it say "From: unknown"? Is that normal?

Is it not possible to see from what address bitcoins came?

Yes it's possible, but the current client is not able to do many things yet that the protocol permits.  Part of it is that more than one address can input into a single transaction, totaling up to the amount requested, and the current client does nothing about displaying those addresses.

If you are talking about sending to a Mybitcoin.com account from another, this would be a different issue, as there would not often even be a bitcoin transaction in that case, as such internal transfers are usually handled internally by Mybitcoin's modified client servers. 
6537  Economy / Economics / Re: Calculating BItcoin Inflation (or Deflation) on: December 14, 2010, 08:07:19 PM
Quote
Inflation/deflation = change in exchange rate

So if USD/BTC increases but EUR/BTC decreases, does the bitcoin economy have inflation or deflation?  or both? or none?

As I mentioned above, prices don't really offer information about the causes.  The above situation could happen without either inflation or deflation, although this would be corrected by actors seeking profit from arbitrige.  Prices tell you the answer, but not the question.
6538  Economy / Economics / Re: Calculating BItcoin Inflation (or Deflation) on: December 14, 2010, 08:02:26 PM
There is this fine inflated article at wikipedia on inflation:

Quote
In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

I'm a simple minded logical person, i prefer to simplify and ask a conditional question:

If the above is true,

The excerpt that I left above is not true.  This describes the most common effect of inflation, but is not inflation.  Inflation is the the expansion of the monetary base (including credit extended) relative to the economic activity that it represents.  Deflation is the exact opposite; the reduction of the monetary base relative to the economic activity that represents.  Notice that this is a raw ratio, not a unit, and change can come from either side of the fractional.  In the case of Bitcoin, even though the absolute monetary base is expanding at a rate of ~60% as expressed as an APR; the value of bitcoin is increasing (the ratio is increasing) because the economic activity is expanding at a higher overall rate than 60% per year.  Without running any numbers, the rise in the value of bitcoin suggests that the economic activity of the Bitcoin economy is increasing at a rate closer to 500% per year or more.

The general rise in prices seen over time, is an expression of that ratio filtering across industries, but make poor indicators themselves because they are 1) late, 2) uneven across industries and 3) offer no information with regard to root causes.
6539  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Android Bitcoin Client Bounty (1740 BTC pledged) on: December 14, 2010, 07:46:45 PM
I guess that the whole discussion is going a bit awry, I'd hope that stores would put up a small access point for people to connect to when checking out.

That's why I wanted the client to be NFC/Dash7 aware eventually, because I think that either/both of these technologies will play a big role in the IRL use and trade of digital currencies.  Dash7 is particularly well suited towards spreading Bitcoin transactions and blocks, but even a wifi hotspot that blocked all ports except Bitcoin's would work fine for this purpose.
6540  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: infinite increasing of the chain size on: December 14, 2010, 07:33:41 PM
Is there any reason why every certain number of blocks, that everyone's balance could not just be calculated and written as a huge new "genesis block" heap that simply equates Bitcoin addresses with their balances, and then all the detail from all prior blocks could be truncated?


Yes, there is a reason that is not done in the standard clients, and running balance sheets have been proposed, but it's not neccessary in order to keep the local blockchain footprint down.  The blockchain can be 'pruned' of old transaction records that have been already referenced (spent) in "lightweight" clients such as cell phones, or even full clients once set up.  There will likely always be a complete copy of the blockchain available somewhere on the Internet, but only 'paranoid' clients need the entire thing and then only upon initial startup.  Once they have verified the entire blockchain, even the most paranoid client can prune years of records off the chain and need only keep the 80 byte long headers.

Quote

The way I understand it, you need the whole block chain not just to be a generator, but to independently verify the validity of your bitcoins cryptographically, and that can be tedious if a cell phone in 2030 must trace each cent through countless micropayments back to the originating block.


You understand it incorrectly.  Don't take this personally, as it's a very complicated system, and takes a while for even the geekiest among us to wrap their heads around.  I was here for weeks before I really understood it.

And a 'lightweight' client can verify transactions independently without the full chain, but it's more than possible to verify transactions without a local copy of the chain at all if your client is connected to the Internet at the time.  There is a number of ways that this can be done, but the current Android client functions as  a frontend to a remote bitcoind running on a server.  This bitcoind server is functioning as a "trusted node", in this case because both the server and client are owned by the same user; but it is reasonable that "trusted nodes" will be a common thing in a Bitcoin future, functioning as a type of bank and/or credit card company as a service.  The trusted nodes keep the blockchain, and verify all user transactions.

Quote

Example, after a million blocks, block 1000001 could be a block that replaces all blocks 2 thru 1000000, so one may only need a block chain of 1 -> 1000001 -> 1000002 etc... until two million:  1 -> 1000001 -> 2000001 -> 2000002 etc...


Feel free to write such a client.  If there are technical issues with such a shortcut, I'm sure that you will figure it out.

Quote
Not only would this save space for people not wanting to dedicate an ever-increasing amount of resources at a difficult-to-sustain rate, but it would also reduce the computational resources needed to validate balances, which would probably grow in an O(n^2) manner relative to the block chain itself.


The resources of verification do not grow exponentially, or even linerily, with the size of the blockchain.

Quote

If this is not sensible or beneficial due to my misunderstanding of the way it works, I'd welcome being corrected.

It might be both, but it's not immediately neccessary to be able to compact the blockchain for any reason; and provisions exist in the protocol to be able to prune the blockchain to significant degrees.  This system is still young, and alternative clients will start to pop up with other ways of doing things when the time is right.
Pages: « 1 ... 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 [327] 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!