I will post another update once I know more. I'm guessing that payments will have to take a forced 30% cut.
No updates in the last 24hrs... I know it is a Saturday but I assume that by now you guys (all Bitconica LP partners) must have had a crisis meeting and made some concrete decisions on how to proceed following this latest MtGox compromise? Please don't leave your customers guessing. |
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Aren't copyright notices required or else information is in the public domain? If there are no notices then from my limited knowledge I would guess it was in the public domain legally.
According to US law... Q. Do I have to register with your office to be protected?A. No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.” From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.htmlI'd love a C&D notice, I'd publish it here so people know on which door they should knock to get their money back :D I like the way you think! :) Although I doubt they would actually serve a C&D letter. I understand the new Bitcoinica owners found so many holes in the current code that they most likely decided to not to maintain and and instead develop a new platform from scratch. Unfortunately Bitcoinica came tumbling down before the new platform was ready. (not that it would have mattered because their non-code related security practices were lacking/non-existent) |
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Welcome back Tihan, you have been missed since your last brief visit to this forum. It would appear that a lot of misinformation has circulated since the date of my last post. Considering the many inconsistencies, I will assume astute readers here have already discounted the versions of facts presented by the Consultancy. That is funny because the last time I spoke with a certain Bitcoinica representative (about a month ago) I was told that you were misrepresenting the facts and preventing them from exposing the truth because you were unwilling to nullify their NDA: There's a PR smear campaign that might be working through sheer force but it's a bunch of lies. If you want to understand what's going on send me your phone number and I'll give you a call So who do we believe? It seems all parties are blaming each other and no-one is in control. The Consultancy members accepted that responsibility on April 24 as operators and General Partners of Bitcoinica LP. There is ample written documentation to confirm this.
I believe this to be true, but would you care to back up that claim with some references? There are still a lot of unknowns surrounding recent events but the Consultancy's responsibility for Bitcoinica and its password security is not one of them. The fund will be considering all legal options.
I assume you are considering all legal options for the benefit of Bitcoinica customers? There's something with Tihan going on, but I am not following that because it's unneeded drama for me - it seems he got fired, although I'm not sure for what.
It appears you got fired. What is your current role with Bitcoinica LP? |
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As a Bitconica customer: - I had no positions, no leverage, and was using it as an interest bearing savings account.
And now *THIS* happens? When will you people learn that there is ONLY ONE VIABLE TYPE OF BTC SAVING ACCOUNT --> heavily encrypted and backed up bitcoin wallet/brainwallet/paperwallet in a secure place ? How about NOW? (Admittedly too late...) |
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Maybe we should ask why all those people had that much funds there...?
Bitcoinica was the first fully licenced financial service provider that provided decent interest of 6% on both BTC and USD currency accounts. The interest on my USD account alone provided me with ~0.5 BTC per day, so I simply used it as a BTC savings account, while leaving speculation to the other customers. This is the post (from Donald) that won me over: http://bitcoinmedia.com/first-licensed-advanced-trading-platform-for-bitcoin/While Bitcoinica had some previous security concerns, namely where the attack on the Linode cloud hosting provider generated them a loss of 40k BTC, Bitcoinica has fully recovered from the loss and no longer depends so heavily on 3rd party platforms. The Bitcoinica reigns have been taken up by the recognized development group called the Bitcoin Consultancy which have a record of solid security in the tumultuous world of Bitcoin. On a personal level: I did not commit any sizeable deposits until Bitcoinica got their new ToS, status as registered FSP in NZ and contracted the Bitcoin Consultancy, who at the time were regarded as some of the best and reputable in the business. I found Zhou to be responsive, honest and helpful in his communication with customers and the bitcoin community. The fact that he was able to deal with the first hack to the complete satisfaction of the entire customerbase only bolstered my confidence that this was not a scam operation and assumed he learned a costly lesson in security that would not be repeated. I was impressed by Bitcoinica as a service, it worked very well for my needs. I secured my account with a strong unique password + Google 2-factor authentication and Bitcoinica stated they did not keep deposits on site but at MtGox. Little did I know that while providing strong user facing security features they did not have adequate security measures internally (No offsite backups, cheap VPN, no OTP on their MtGox, root password reset broadcast to a mailinglist, etc.) I realized this was one of my riskier investments since the legal status of Bitcoin is uncertain and Bitcoinica was still a largely unproven business. I did my due diligence to the best of my ability. I did my risk assessment. I decided the risk/reward was worth it. I was wrong. Mea Culpa. http://youtu.be/NmFo-LKHGY0So far this has been an painful and protracted lesson in counterparty risk. Now I see no option left apart from considering joining possible legal action and feeding the lawyercats. I admit I don't like it one bit, but the alternative is to sit around like a fool and I tried that strategy for the last 2 months without much success. |
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I'm in. My deposit value is $38,626 (BTC+USD combined). Willing to contribute to legal fees.
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No, this is not the users' fault. Why should the bitcoinica users eat all the loss?
+1 It makes no sense to make us eat the loss. That is their own fault. They need to all stop taking a paycheck like Zhou did and/or start eating muesli with even cheaper milk and cough up the money out of pocket. Some of us have undeniable proof and we want our money back. Actually they need to honor their terms of use their clients agreed to and if they didn't make any guarantees about security they're off the hook and it's the client's fault for putting money someplace where such guarantees weren't made. From the Bitcoinica ToS: [12] Limitation of Liability
IN NO EVENT SHALL BITCOINICA, ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR EMPLOYEES BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH OUR WEB SITE, OUR SERVICES OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) EXCEPT AS STATED IN THIS AGREEMENT. THE LIABILITY OF BITCOINICA, ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR EMPLOYEES, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY PROVEN CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU TRANSFERRED OR DEPOSITED IN YOUR ACCOUNT AT BITCOINICA IN RELATION TO THE TRANSACTION GIVING RISE TO SUCH LIABILITY. In the case where you make funds available for trading via a voucher, "coupon code", or similar from another financial service, banking institution or exchange, you acknolwedge that you are providing Bitcoinica access to those funds for trading purposes only and that the originating financial institution is the holder of such deposits. Bitcoinica is not liable for any loss if such institutions fail in honoring withdrawal of customer funds. |
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Once again, someone with a US IP succeed to get Bitcoinica's account credential which did not trigger any alarms since they were fully identified. Since Bitconica's account was a verified account the owner of this account asked (This happened when Zhou was still controlling Bitconica) to have his limits lifted to the maximum possible, giving the possibility to the thief to move Bitcoinica's assets to another external account (External to MtGox).
Thanks for the update. Can you please clarify when the theft occurred? |
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@Genjix - Can you please update https://bitcoinica.com/ with the info from the OP? You can not assume all customers are reading bitcointalk.org. |
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This has been one of the most stressful situations with maximum suffering I have ever experienced. I am furious and I hope everyone involved putting us through this gets what's due to them. Karma is a bitch, you fucking wankers.
Right. Because this has not been the most stressful time of my life. I have physical health problems and need to see a doctor, but haven't had the time. On the forums I'm called a scammer and repeatedly insulted. Someone is trying to sue us. My bank gave me crap and held my money. I was borrowing cash from friends and spent 3 days eating bad muesli and cheap milk. I lost a lot of code by accident. I put a lot of work into the bitcoin.org clients page to make everything fairer, and now it will be removed, helping to recentralise bitcoin again. Electrum maybe has a security flaw and Macs have random problems. The conference needs the CFP announced soon, but I have to deal with Bitcoinica first. My health is suffering and im getting headaches. Right now is the first time I'm feeling depression, and I'm a little worried because I've never had it before but my father did. I emailed a health professional and they advised me to seek help. I've started sleeping very long, being very lethargic and apathetic. When the Bitcoinica thing first happened, I was considering suicide until Tihan said he had the funds. Genjix, out of all Bitcoinica folks I've dealt with you've shown the most integrity. I have no intention of shooting the messenger. My anger is direct at Bitcoinica LP (whoever owns it) and the continued mismanagement of this situation. Please keep updating your customers with facts (however bad they are). All we care about is 1) getting our money back and 2) the truth. So take a breath and try to keep doing the right thing. You are OK. |
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As a Bitconica customer: - I have $38,626 (BTC+USD combined) in Bitcoinica. (2 years of hard savings)
- I had no positions, no leverage, and was using it as an interest bearing savings account.
- My claim has been verified as accurate on 3 occasions.
- I have received exactly 0 back over the last 2 months.
- A large part of my deposits was from a 5 digit USD wire transfer between my bank account and Bitcoinica's bank account in NZ (CORE CREDIT) and cleared only 2 days before Bitcoinica was taken down.
- I had previously requested Bitcoinica to put all customer funds into escrow until the reimbursement issues were resolved
And now *THIS* happens? |
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This has resulted in the loss of one third of all the Bitcoinica money which has been stolen from MtGox. (40k BTC / 40K USD - the mtgox daily limits)
When did this happen? In a single day or over the course of many? Are you saying 40,000 USD + 40,000 BTC were stolen? Or the USD equivalent of $344,800 at today's exchange rates? |
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Can someone from MtGox support please weigh in and provide more details on what happened, when, how much?
This is just incredulous.
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Core Credit LTD is a New Zealand Limited Company and the General Partner of Bitcoinica LP.
Ah this is new info. On 2012/06/07 Amir claimed that Core Credit Limited is Tihan's Parent company (the Limited Partner). See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg946751#msg946751 Core Credit LTD was renamed to Bitcoinica Consultancy LTD significantly after the events occurred.
Yes it happened on 2012/05/30 and it was never explained why this happened despite me asking repeatedly. Nevertheless the legal incorporation date for Bitcoinica Consultancy is 2012/01/30 according to the NZ documentation. Look at the documents posted up on the New Zealand Companies House website for the company you just linked: here. If you look through it, the company was registered as Core Credit Limited on the 30th of January 2010 and it was renamed to Bitcoinica Consultancy LTD on the 30th of May. Your own references show that phantomcircuit is right and you're lying through your teeth. This isn't new information either, someone noticed it and brought it up ages ago. After some more digging I found that you are correct; It is not new info and it does seem I made some false assumptions in one of my earlier posts. See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg953181#msg953181I assumed CORE CREDIT was the limited/banking partner (Tihan's fund) and BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY the general partner (the Intersango Guys). But I found an earlier post from Zhou that is pretty clear on the topic. See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81045.msg918845#msg918845And: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79688.msg883562#msg883562Bitcoinica has started using a new bank account in New Zealand for wire transfers. This account is opened with Bitcoinica's banking partner Core Credit Limited (an approved FSP in New Zealand). I thought the company name change on May 30 from CORE CREDIT > BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY indicated something dodgy since there was an earlier BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY record that was withdrawn. But actually it seems this was part of the normal formation process that apparently only completed some time after the hack. (I assumed the process was complete on April 24 since that was when Bitcoin Consultancy's new role in Bitcoinica was publicly announced). There is no way you could possibly have interpreted the linked reference to mean what you say it does. I should probably have been clearer in my wording here. I did not mean that the corporate entity Bitcoin Consultancy became Bitcoinica Consultancy, merely that the same individuals behind the Bitcoin Consultancy became the owners of Bitcoinica Consultancy. See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83711.msg922963#msg922963Bitcoinica Consultancy has three people including two technical experts. They have been working in Bitcoinica for more than one month. And they're assumed to bear all liabilities of Bitcoinica LP. And from Tihan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81045.msg919130#msg919130The members of Bitcoin Consultancy operated Bitcoinica via a separate New Zealand Ltd company formed for this purpose. I'm sorry if I added to the confusion. And if anybody feels I have personally defamed them then I offer my apologies. My intent is not to deceive but to understand what is going on and who is in charge since I have a not insignificant balance in Bitcoinica that I would like to see returned. That is all. I assure you that trying to figure out corporate structures is not my expertise nor my hobby ;) |
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Membership in a DRS is mandatory for FSPs who provide a service to retail clients, because it provides consumers with an avenue for redress when a dispute arises with their financial service provider. Membership in a scheme is a pre-requisite for registration as an FSP. Why did Bitcoinica LP not sign up with a Dispute Resolution Scheme? FSPs who are unsure as to whether they need to join a dispute resolution scheme should seek legal advice. Did Bitcoinica seek legal advice in this matter, if so what was the outcome? I haven't done much research, but to my best knowledge, DRS only applies to NZ residents. Over 99% of Bitcoinica customers are not NZ residents so they are not classified as "retail clients". I believe that the company had plans to amend the Terms of Service to mention the illegibility of NZ non-accredited/non-institutional investors for Bitcoinica service. FYI: Today I got a reply from FSPR Compliance regarding my question whether the mandatory Dispute Resolution Scheme for FSPs applies to non-NZ retail clients (most of Bitcoinica customers): From: FSPR Compliance compliance@fspr.govt.nzDear Sir I refer to your query below. All financial service providers must be a member of a dispute resolution scheme in respect of a financial service provided to a retail client. A retail client is defined in section 49 of the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act 2008 as any person who is not a wholesale client. There is no requirement that retail clients be New Zealand customers.There is no offence provision where a FSP is not a member of a dispute resolution scheme. The Registrar will inform the Financial Markets Authority of your complaint. So there you have it. Bitcoinica does not meet the requirements for financial service providers in NZ and also seems to be in violation of it's own ToS by not offering this service as an option to their customers: [21] Governing Law; Arbitration and Court Jurisdiction
Binding Arbitration: For any Claim (excluding Claims for injunctive or other equitable relief) where the total amount of the award sought is less than $10,000, you or Bitcoinica may elect to resolve the dispute through binding arbitration conducted in person, on-line or based solely upon written submissions where no in-person appearance is required. In such cases, the arbitration shall be administered in accordance with New Zealand law or any other established Alternative Dispute Resolution provider mutually agreed upon by the parties. Any judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrator may be entered, exclusively, in any court located within New Zealand. Exclusive Court Jurisdiction: Alternatively, you agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within New Zealand to settle any dispute, which may arise in relation thereto. |
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His plan was to pay the most vocal people 100% of their claimed amount.
That is not at all what Zhou was suggesting. Here is his plan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81045.msg921368#msg921368--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---
- Your bitcointalk.org profile or Bitcoin-OTC rating shows you as reputable and trustworthy. (50 Points)
- You can supply at least one transactional email you have received which perfectly matches our outgoing transactional email records. (30 Points)
- You can provide passport scans and you have provided to Bitcoinica (even if it's pending verification). (40 Points)
- The order of magnitude of your reported balance is consistent with our outdated accounting records. (30 Points)
- You can recall the balances exactly or very precisely. (20 Points)
- You have reported a losing position, with precise details. (20 Points)
- You have contacted Bitcoinica Support at least once since September 2011. (10 Points)
- Your email can be searched online and matches your identity. (10 Points)
- You can provide proof of Bitcoin address ownership (signature), Mt. Gox code you have used/obtained or accurate details of large transaction records (>2500 BTC) that match our hedging activity. (10 Points each kind of evidence)
- Another reputable member supports your claim. (10 Points)
- You have used wire transfer, BitInstant or AurumXchange to deposit/withdraw funds and they can verify the records. (10 Points)
- You have submitted the claim within the first 24 hours since the announcement. (10 Points)
If there are no transactional emails or support emails ever sent to the claimed address, 0 Points for now.
If you get >= 100 Points, you should be refunded immediately.
If you get >= 50 Points, you can expect partial refunds first. The percentage of partial payments will be calculated using the formula (let P be the points you get):
Partial payment in % = (P/10)^2
e.g. If you get 90 Points, you receive 81% of the claimed amount first. If you get 50 Points, you receive 25% of the claimed amount first.
The rest of the claimed amount will be honored after every request has been processed. Then we can use cross reference to match the remainder records, and hopefully a copy of database can be obtained or leaked. If needed, we can also use external moderation to decide asset ownership.
--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL --- Now I agree that this was not a good plan, and I am happy with the strategy you guys chose to go with a more fact based approach. So no criticism there. |
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Your analysis is not only wrong but straight up defamation.
Why would I maliciously misrepresent your words or actions? I have nothing to gain by this. I linked to references that are either legal documents or written by members of Bitcoinica LP. Bitcoin Consultancy LTD is a UK Limited company which is neither owned nor owns any other company.
I did not claim this. I claim the members behind both companies are the same. Based on Tihans quote: "The members of Bitcoin Consultancy operated Bitcoinica via a separate New Zealand Ltd company formed for this purpose." Intersango LTD is a UK Limited company which is neither owned nor owns any other company.
I did not mention Intersango LTD at all. Bitcoinica LP is a New Zealand Limited Partnership.
I agree, and did not claim otherwise Core Credit LTD is a New Zealand Limited Company and the General Partner of Bitcoinica LP.
Ah this is new info. On 2012/06/07 Amir claimed that Core Credit Limited is Tihan's Parent company (the Limited Partner). See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg946751#msg946751 Core Credit LTD was renamed to Bitcoinica Consultancy LTD significantly after the events occurred.
Yes it happened on 2012/05/30 and it was never explained why this happened despite me asking repeatedly. Nevertheless the legal incorporation date for Bitcoinica Consultancy is 2012/01/30 according to the NZ documentation. I personally have absolute no legal obligation to assist in any of this. 100% of my time and effort is donation.
I didn't say you were individually liable. As far as I understand the General Partner is liable. The General Partner is Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd. You are a member of Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd. (Unless this changed on May 30) Please correct me if I am wrong. As for Zhou's "plan" that is precisely what he said he intended to do, a strategy I find to be immensely immoral.
It seems it is you doing the defamation here. Oh and Patrick - Respect is earned. In the same way I earned the 30.000+ USD worth of funds that you are holding against my consent for the last 2 months. I realize I am probably putting my claim at risk by pissing off 'the only person' who can help me get 'most' of my funds back but so be it. |
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the only chance you all have of getting your funds back is me.
So how about some fucking respect.
How about less arrogance and more professionalism? I feel like a hostage. |
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