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661  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 08:01:29 PM
1) Scrap the deadline, put up instructions on how to four for BIP16, BIP17, or neither, in a simple to understand way (precompiled bitcoind exe's preconfigured for specific votes maybe?), and just let the voting continue. Eventually once more than 55% of the miners are voting for either BIP16 or BIP17, implement the winner. With enough time it will happen.
Doesn't works this way. "Voting" means that this mining system already supports given method, but it will be enabled only after specified date.
If you want to vote for one version, but in case of other one winning switch to the other, you need to implement BOTH with a some kind of switch. And this switch should never br triggered after the end of this voting. Adds complexity and poosibly error-prone.
662  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Join me in the biggest mining pool boycott Bitcoin has ever seen on: January 26, 2012, 07:03:07 PM
I use a small pool, only because I want there to be more than 3 voters.  All pools are not equal and so the miners are not voting on this issue by using any specific pool.   

The majority miners have spoken.  There is going to be only three people that will make the decision on which implementation is chosen.
Actually I don't think there will be any choice.

I can predict the future:
1) Slush and BTCguild support BIP16
2) Luke-jr supports BIP17
3) Some small pools support BIP16
4) I'll check if there is considerable support of BIP16 and if it is, then I'll implement it too.
5) BIP16 wins.

Well, or nothing happens.
663  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: [BOUNTY] Bitcoin blockchain monitoring site on: January 26, 2012, 04:12:02 PM
My pledge is paid (50 BTC).
664  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: [BOUNTY] Bitcoin blockchain monitoring site on: January 26, 2012, 03:34:35 PM
I PM'd the other bounty contributors, but I don't think they are active anymore.
Post a fresh address here, so award can be sent and checked by people.
665  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: How bad firewall settings can make you lose 75 BTCs on: January 26, 2012, 03:26:49 PM
How does this make you feel about the P2SH debate that has been raging lately? If you do continue to use Bitcoin, is this something you would hope to be implemented ASAP so you could take simple precautions to prevent what happened to you?
I've been reading... BIP16/17, P2SH... honestly, i feel that, for the enduser, despite some divergences in opinion between Gavin/Luke and others, they ultimately want to do something that is good for everyone, so, eventually, the decision that will be made shall be positive.
All those BIP16/BIP17 (types of pay-to-script) and BIP11 are doing the same thing, which can allow you to require confirming your TXes from your mobile phone or some other separate device.
(It's already possible technically, but no client currently exist with appropriate functions, and this TX would be "strange"(non-standard))

The point of voting is to a) select the most suitable implementation, b) deploy it safely.
666  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 03:23:18 PM
Hey Tycho, as long as you are here, I see that one of your objections to BIP16 is the magic transaction pattern.  Would you be more comfortable if there was an opcode that triggered the BIP16 mechanism?
Yes, I would be.

Also, you should note that I'll vote for /P2SH/ if considerable part of other miners will. It's not like I'm completely against it.
My position is rather "Vote for doing it in a better way unless impossible" and not triggering the avalanche by voting myself first.
667  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Are there any mining contracts offering the right to choose how to vote for P2SH on: January 26, 2012, 03:15:39 PM
Actually they cannot. They can *insert* the text into the coinbase, but one entity cannot actually mine for both chains (except some strange solution) at the same time, so putting p2sh header in some blocks don't have the sense.
Actual mining should be decided accordingly to the voting result.
668  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: [BOUNTY] Bitcoin blockchain monitoring site on: January 26, 2012, 03:13:59 PM
Would be nice if you can add info about which blocks they belong and which one is orphaned.
669  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 03:09:00 PM
Here's another interesting prospect…let's say both BIP16 and BIP17 were implemented in two different forks of the bitcoin client.  Since they are both somewhat backward compatible (which means that the old validation rules will allow these transactions to pass if seen in a block), both styles of transaction could be supported by the network as a whole.
Possibly won't work this way. With "old validation rules" 1) both BIP16 and BIP17 will be "non-standard", but mined by supporting pools (unless stopped by not relaying to to way to miner), 2) more importantly, if someone is mining by old rules, then under some circumstances he can create a TX, redeeming any BIP17 TX, that belongs to someone else, causing evil blockchain forking (depends on hashing power of both branches).
670  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: [BOUNTY] Bitcoin blockchain monitoring site on: January 26, 2012, 02:51:57 PM
Tycho, When I initially made the double spend page there was only one transaction, now there are 6. Is that you testing it?
No, I'm not.
I think that it's some broken client or attack against some broken client.

You can try to monitor for transactions with multiple instances of same input, that's what happens too, as my monitoring nodes show.
I heard that there was some old client storing them in memorypool or doing something else.

UPD: Also it may be caused by people restoring their wallets from backups or using wallet.dat copy accidentally.
What we should especially care for is double-spend attempts in orphaned branches.
671  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 02:45:54 PM
I think that the only dev against BIP16 is luke-jr, who is offering BIP17 instead.
And what about BIP17? I did get the idea that Gavin didn't like it, but what about other devs? If more devs like BIP16 than BIP17, then in my book we can rule out BIP17.
BIP17 is less "compatible" with old clients and under some circumstances can allow redeeming other people's TXes if the network suddenly stops supporting BIP17.

But both BIP16 and BIP17 are incompatible with old clients to the enough level so we can't say that one is "significantly more" compatible anyway.
672  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 02:43:06 PM
I want to try to clear up two misconceptions:
1. The original implementation of OP_EVAL was not "exploitable", but it did have bugs.
As I understand, there was a possible way to make pool's blocks invalid/orphaned, which can be an attack against the pool if this pool's rules state paying miners for invalid blocks.
673  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 02:41:06 PM
To me the biggest deciding factor here is what is the general opinion of the devs? Make a dev vote damn it, if at least 90% of devs agree on a BIP, tell us, the regular folk about it. I would gladly mine on a pool that supports that particular BIP if large majority of the devs are behind it.
I think that the only dev against BIP16 is luke-jr, who is offering BIP17 instead.
674  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:45:13 PM
Actually I can manually ask many bitcoin developers with good reputation about what vote should I give, but there are 2 problems:
1) They possibly will be all for /P2SH/
2) This won't solve my goal of having better solution

Asking my miners to vote would be "democratic", but sadly they don't know what's the difference, how this will affect Bitcoin and will mostly fall for current FUD on the forum.
Surprisingly I got just only one PM asking me what I'll be voting for, so looks like most forum members don't really care or they believe that time will settle things.
(No, this doesn't means that you should PM me now :)
675  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:33:36 PM
Also, Gavin's signature says "Send Tycho a PM or email and ask him to support P2SH for a more secure Bitcoin" like I'm currently against "more secure Bitcoin".
But I'm not.
676  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:27:46 PM
... and there are shady rumors about reasons for Gavin to support it ...
Is it something along the lines of CIA remote-brainwashing peoples without them even knowing it?
That what I would think if I were a conspiracy theorist, but it seems too far fetched to believe... :)
No. Luke-jr initiated a rumor that Gavin is hired by some company going to produce hardware/software solution for 2-factor authentication and this is the reason he is pushing so hard.

Disclaimer: I don't think that this is true.

I have a practical question though, when multiple public/private keys are used to produce a single bitcoin multisig address,
does it mean that all private keys originate on the same (potentially compromised) computer and then one of them needs to be transferred to a phone or another device? Or does the second key orginate from that second device? In this case what is the exact procedure to create a multisig bitcoin address for the end user?
No, the whole point is in having private keys on separate devices.
677  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:25:02 PM
Actually AFAIR, the "voting" ENDS 1 Feb.
Well, this just proves my point that the whole situation is a mess. The 2 percent support still doesn't tell us what the real opinions are, for example Slush has stated that he supports P2SH and his pool is much more than 2 percent. I'm not quite sure which BIP he prefers, however.
He is for BIP16.
And I don't know how he is going to mine enough voting blocks before 1 Feb.
678  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Are there any mining contracts offering the right to choose how to vote for P2SH on: January 26, 2012, 01:21:15 PM
Technically one entity (one miner, one pool) cannot vote for or against P2SH in the same time
Actually it can.
Just insert /P2SH/ tag in appropriate % of your blocks :)
679  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:18:13 PM
What are you talking about? There has not been any real vote yet, what the network supports currently is not an indicator of what the support would be when the real vote starts.
Actually AFAIR, the "voting" ENDS 1 Feb.
680  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BIP 16 / 17 in layman's terms on: January 26, 2012, 01:12:59 PM
And this is why I am watching the thread.
Tycho, can you inform us to any downside to this new change? I am a bit worried about fixing things that are not broken.
I don't actually think that this proposal can break something, but rather expect some better solution for this problem.
Well, I also believed that Gavin's OP_EVAL patch is good too because he is Gavin, and Deepbit was the first pool to support and vote for OP_EVAL. Until it turned out to be exploitable, buggy and not the thing Gavin really wanted. Luckily no harm was done, but lesson learned.

1 Objection: there are clearly no consensus between devs or miners about the exact method of implementing pay-to-script thing. That's the reason I would prefer dividing it into two separate stages - 1) implement plain multisig and long-address multisig support, 2) decide about pay-to-script method and move 1 into it.
This would give us both time for deciding on stage 2 and allow 2-factor authentication and escrow-services support with a small downside of using pubkeys instead of pubkeyhashes and a bit longer output scripts.

2 Objection: (less important) this proposal makes strange use of scripts: it's like having a compiler that can only allow the source to contain just one line #include "source2.c", which contains the actual script. Somewhat hackish. I would prefer either normal scripts or no scripts at all in TX's output.
Also I don't like the script to be in serialized form, but this is not a real downside at all.

3 Objection: I don't want to become the single entity to decide on this. That's exactly the opposite of what Gavin says. With current 2% of /P2SH/ support Deepbit would be the force to push /P2SH/ into existence, not the other way around.
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