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6681  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What will keep transaction fees up? on: November 30, 2010, 01:07:03 AM
Most transaction are free, but you can make it go faster by paying transaction fees.

Will there be a default fee amount included in future clients, or will be have to guess/check what the average miner is charging to process transactions?

Some clients may have a default fee amount, but I doubt that those will survive in the marketplace.
6682  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What will keep transaction fees up? on: November 30, 2010, 01:05:58 AM
I suspect the generator rules can vary with time, but to fend off chaos they should be a deterministic function of the content of previous block(s) and not depend on the transaction pool.  I also suspect that if the customers & merchants do not hold a significant fraction of the Ghash/sec, the 'rules' will tend to make a generator cartel with high fees.

Yes I believe the real potential issue is the 'cartel,'  I'm not worried about the transaction fees being too low, rather too high.  I think that studying this with game theory would be very fun, but, I don't have the time also.

There can be no 'cartel' in Bitcoin, because there can be no monopoly.  The barriers to entry into the generation pool are simply too low, and there is no way that a government could enforce an artifical monopoly even if it wanted to.  If the transaction fees begin to creep up due to consolidation of the generation pool, others will begin to notice and they will choose to participate as the possibilites of a random reward become worth the costs.  This will create a price point that is ever fluctuating, but balanced, as this effect removes any pricing power of any group of generators in collusion.  I would predict that the transaction fees will be somewhere between 0% and 3% on average, but closer to 0%; because 3% is where the credit card companies and PayPal have set their prices, and they do have a degree of pricing power.  If a 'cartel' were to set up a datacenter that could dominate the network, but only include transactions with fees at say 2.9% (PayPal's regular rate), they would be ignoring an entire set of fee paying transactions that only non-cartel generators could capture.  The results being that the network would generally see that 2.9% is the premium price to get one's transaction recorded quickly, but if one is willing to wait until one of the non-cartel generators then there is a budget option (currently that option is free).  The cartel could not be certain that they could even capture the premium fees, so they would have a choice to make.  Either recognize that they don't have the kind of pricing power that they thought that they did, or ramp up their generation capabilities until they do.  The second choice creates an 'arms race', as for as long as the cartel increases their capacity, they must attempt to pass on that cost, but they can only do so temporarily before non-cartel generators see a profit opprotunity to do the same.  Eventually the cartel hits a point that it can no longer continue, and in the meantime the system has benefited from their attempts to corner a market that cannot be cornered.

Of course, anyone with the resources to do any of this is also going to hire people who know the system, who are likely to point out that they can't really do what it is that they want to do.
6683  Other / Off-topic / Re: Political Assessment on: November 29, 2010, 10:44:03 PM
I'm just an old fashioned kind of libertarian.
6684  Other / Off-topic / Re: Money as Debt on: November 29, 2010, 10:33:27 PM
The most important feature that the digital coins have is that you never have the "we won't do this project, because there is no money"-problem, which was what happened in 1929. There were workers, people wanting to eat, and factories, but no money.


That's not really what happened in 1929, or 1932.
6685  Other / Off-topic / Re: Money as Debt on: November 29, 2010, 04:29:27 PM
An interesting article I read recently on fractional reserve banking and libertarianism:
http://www.anti-state.com/article.php?article_id=416

I've read this article, and with regard to the current economic system, the author is missing one crucial detail.  He states, correctly, that if a bank were to engage in excessive FRB, i.e. to recklessly print extra 'money', then its notes would naturally devalue.  Well, that works when banks can issue only their own notes.  In the current system, the money produced by the bank *is equivalent to* the fiat currency accepted by the government for tax payments.  Thus, no devaluation of the bank's private notes - the devaluation is spread across everybody's currency holdings.  So the banks go for short term profit, at the risk of destabilising the entire economic system's future.

Nope, he was right.  You need to do more research.
6686  Other / Off-topic / Re: Money as Debt on: November 29, 2010, 04:28:12 PM
A) the BP oil spill and countless other environmental disasters, B) the continuously widening gap between rich & poor right throughout all western (& other) society.

Those are not examples of failures of capitalism, but failures of corproratism.  Not that capitalism can't fail, but it is a self-correcting system.

Capitalism is the idea that you can put a price on anything, and that the one who manages to sell at the lowest price should be rewarded.  The logical conclusion, therefore, is that capitalists will *always* seek to minimise their costs at the expense of, well, anything.  In these cases, they are selling the future in order to turn a quick buck now.


That's not capitalism.
6687  Other / Off-topic / Re: Money as Debt on: November 29, 2010, 03:08:17 PM
I'm a bit more then just a socialist and I know bitcoin is a step towards getting away from government/corporation authority and control. After that it will help move into a classless society and possibly money will be abolished altogether.

Is it just me, or is there something not quite right with someone who is "more than a socialist" but yet wants to eliminate or reduce government?  Bitcoin is a pure capitalist system, and, honestly, the past N years of capitalism don't seemed to have worked out so great for society - witness A) the BP oil spill and countless other environmental disasters, B) the continuously widening gap between rich & poor right throughout all western (& other) society.

Those are not examples of failures of capitalism, but failures of corproratism.  Not that capitalism can't fail, but it is a self-correcting system.
6688  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Government vs Bitcoin ? on: November 29, 2010, 04:42:39 AM
http://www.makerbot.com/

Seen one in person recently.  Slick little machines.
6689  Other / Off-topic / Re: Money as Debt on: November 29, 2010, 03:53:41 AM

I don't think FRB is inherently evil, it's the central banking system and money printing that's the real problem.

It' the former that enables the latter.  Before the banking acts of 1913 that legalized fractional reserve banking as well as the Federal Reserve itself, fractional reserve banking was considered fraud.
6690  Economy / Marketplace / Re: FunFile.org Invites (Torrent Tracker) on: November 28, 2010, 04:52:32 PM
That is like if I was selling car and you come over asking about America and the Iraq oil war.
Yes oil and cars have things in common.
Yes Bittorrent and copyrights have in common.
Selling cars and wars in Iraq do not.
Funfile invites and copyrights are not.

Oh come on, I know that 99.9% that people use torrents to pirate stuff.

A substantial amount of bitorrent traffic is legitimately licensed material. For example, every GNU/Linux distro has a torrent for their latest release install disk.  Many semi-amateur tv serials are released on bittorrent (The Guild?) and in the past some serials in syndication were released onto bittorrent at the same moment that the episode aired.  Stargate SG1 did this for a time, unofficially, while they were in dispute with the SciFi channel.  Those episodes were easy to spot as 1) they were released before the end of the show's first airing (impossible for anyone without insider access) 2) they were of dvd quality 3) they did not contain any commercials, broadcast indentifer overlays, or editing marks and 4) sometimes contained the editing marks that are never broadcast.
6691  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Sneakernet on: November 28, 2010, 04:35:45 PM
This reminds me of a sneakernet that was intentionally set up in Africa to allow residents of small towns to send & receive email, as well as request entire websites for educational research.  Once the website was captured and shipped to the distant school, a modified squid would keep a copy of that website on cache indefinately.

It would be great if a durable flashdrive could be made into the form factor of a mailable postcard, but then how would you know who to mail it to next, and how could you encourage the current user to send it to the next guy in the chain rather that keep it for himself?
6692  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: What will governments do against Cash ? on: November 28, 2010, 04:26:47 PM

I remember there has been talk of abolishing cash in some circles. It would make it very easy for them to monitor everything, a wet dream of almost all governments these days.


Yes, but the practicalities of such a thing keeps getting in their way.
6693  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: RFC: ship block chain 1-74000 with release tarballs? on: November 28, 2010, 04:25:15 PM
My understanding was that the client already did a blockchain recheck upon startup if the index was missing.  I did this when I first started, and it sure seemed like it was marching through the chain.  Doesn't it require an index to function anyway?  Why would it assume that the blockchain was valid upon startup?  Anyone could have edited it.  The genesis block is encoded into the client, isn't it?  That and the blockchain checkpoints are the only parts that are assumed correct, or am I wrong? There is no good reason to prevent a blockchain download via other methods.  In a future with the bitcoin network running close to it's capacity, downloading the entire blockchain over the P2P network will be harmful. 

Even a chain that has already been pruned of it's merkle trees should be able to be verified from the start, otherwise what good is using a merkle tree at all?
6694  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Local exchange and stabilization on: November 28, 2010, 05:38:00 AM
I'm not sure it effects your point significantly, but I'm pretty confident I remember Betamax coming before VHS. Other formats came before both but were never successful with consumers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war
http://www.mediacollege.com/video/format/compare/betamax-vhs.html


Betamax was a professional recording standard before VHS, but VHS was in the mass market first.
6695  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Satoshi speaks about Bitcoin, 2008 on: November 27, 2010, 04:56:43 AM
Stumbled across this post from Satoshi from two years ago, explaining his views on botnets, the double spending attack, and the blockchain attack.  According to this, the blockchain attack is just another form of double spend as the attacker would not only have to time his attack but would only be able to capture coins he recently owned.

http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09967.html
6696  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Block size limit automatic adjustment on: November 26, 2010, 06:20:38 PM

I'm not smart enough to figure this out. I wish Satoshi would weigh in on this issue. I suspect he may have already envisioned the outcome.

Austrian economic theory says that no one is smart enough, because no one can have all of the information.  The best that we can do is take a guess, and I would guess that it isn't going to be a real problem.  Certainly not in my lifetime.

The main issue raised by this thread does seem like something of concern for the long-term health of this project, as there does seem to be the very real possibility that the current limit is not going to be sufficient for "ordinary" transactions at some point in the future.

I was responding specificly to his concern about transaction fees, not the block size limit.  The hard limit is a real concern, but also one that I imagine has been well considered by others before us.  Did anyone bother to search the archives before diving into this thread?  The block limit exists to prevent spamming from packing the blocks, not support transaction fees.  I think that the recently instituted priority rule does the job at least as well as the hard block limit, but it's not enough on it's own. 
6697  Other / Off-topic / Re: "The magic glasses" on: November 26, 2010, 03:14:27 PM
It was a petty crappy movie.
6698  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin in the Irish Times on: November 26, 2010, 03:03:40 PM
Google searches will find the From_Xenu wiki page without a problem...

The page isn't indexed by search engines because it contains the {{NOINDEX}} template.

Then something is wrong, because I still get the forum's new topics via Google Watch, and much more besides.  From that alone, I can tell that interest on the blogosphere has increased much since the EFF put up their bitcoin address.
6699  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Block size limit automatic adjustment on: November 26, 2010, 02:59:39 PM

I'm not smart enough to figure this out. I wish Satoshi would weigh in on this issue. I suspect he may have already envisioned the outcome.

Austrian economic theory says that no one is smart enough, because no one can have all of the information.  The best that we can do is take a guess, and I would guess that it isn't going to be a real problem.  Certainly not in my lifetime.
6700  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Android Bitcoin Client Bounty (1740 BTC pledged) on: November 26, 2010, 02:54:45 PM
The first thing we need is a working interface with Mybitcoin.com that can use as many of it's functions as possible, such as it's addressbook.  It would be nice if the interface can play nice with bu.mp in order to use it to trade addresses with the rest of your contact info.  The standalone client is after that.

What I mean by "in the absence of Internet" is that the client is a true 'lightweight' client, with a pruned blockchain (which requires that merkle tree pruning be implimented in the main client first) so that the user doesn't have to be connected to the Internet at all times in order to send money, as a website interface would.  This allows a client to create a transaction with or without the Internet and send it whenever the Internet becomes available or by another future means such as Dash7 mesh networking if such a thing becomes available. 
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