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6761  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Government Cannot Outlaw Bitcoin, it's Impossible! on: August 12, 2011, 10:28:36 PM
Bitcoins can be printed on paper, copied, bound, copyrighted, and self-published. One could then tear out pages and transmit them. Shall we outlaw books?

Even better solution: Engrave your bitcoin key on a bullet! You can defend your bitcoin under the 2nd Amendment, and have another nifty way to transmit it over long distances Cheesy

(I'm actually not a gun nut, nor even own a gun, but the "gubming gonna get you" comment made me think of this)
6762  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Government Cannot Outlaw Bitcoin, it's Impossible! on: August 12, 2011, 10:15:15 PM
Bitcoins can be printed on paper, copied, bound, copyrighted, and self-published. One could then tear out pages and transmit them. Shall we outlaw books?
Certain types of pornography is illegal. There are more types in Canada than in US. US has outlawed books with those, and there are certain types of books that you can buy in US from Japan, but is illegal to poses in Canada.
I like the claim that government can outlaw anything. Especially if it's to "save the children," and it's very easy to see how Bitcoin can be targeted with that.
6763  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Vanitygen: Vanity bitcoin address generator [v0.17] on: August 12, 2011, 10:09:19 PM
No, safe mode doesn't help.

So, the last version worked in safe mode, but crashed otherwise, and the current version doesn't work at all in either mode?

And, just to verify, the key search rate is still ~3Mkey/s in safe mode?

I may have jumped the gun on this one. The old one has the same problem of not actually finding anything in safe mode, either (the one I was looking for would've taken an estimated 3 days to find it in safe mode, so it never finished)

This is a very interesting result.  In the current version, safe mode does not completely disable loop unrolling, just the long ones.  The shorter loops used in the bignum arithmetic functions are still unrolled by the preprocessor.  There were changes beside this, but it could be a good place to start poking.  I can send you replacement kernel code that disables all preprocessor unrolling if you want to try.
I think the issue may be something else now. Then again, maybe it DID work back when I had 0.16, and something changed between then? Damn. I hate debugging things. Sorry :/

Quote
What code is this written in? Or rather, what compiler (for Windows) should I get? Maybe I can step through the thing to see where it fails (I at least know that much about programming >.< )

The language is OpenCL-C, and you should already have the code: take a look at calc_addrs.cl.  Unfortunately, I don't have any tips to offer on how to use a device-side debugger, or whether it's even possible using AMD's SDK.

The kernels keep a couple of large temporary value buffers in GPU memory, usually never touched by the CPU.  Their contents could be very informative for diagnosing problems, and all the test suite will do is check the correctness.

I was thinking I could do something like step through it line by line to see where it SHOULD actually find a match and see what happens when it skips it and keeps going. I code in VB for Excel for work, and used to write in some other languages. There's no compiler out there that would allow me to execute the code line by line? Or is the stuff in the background too complicated to monitor?
6764  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Vanitygen: Vanity bitcoin address generator [v0.17] on: August 12, 2011, 07:49:36 PM
So, does anyone else have/had an issue where olcvanitygen never finds a matching key, and just continues searching regardless of how easy the request is?

I haven't forgotten about you!  To really get to the bottom of this problem, a device-side kernel test suite will be required.  I'm working on this.  All of my testing to date has been done using a host program, and in all cases so far except yours, the code has behaved identically on the device, or caused a nice, clean crash.

In the mean time, does it generate addresses correctly in safe mode, i.e. does not take more than a few seconds to find a match to 1Boat or such?

No, safe mode doesn't help.

What code is this written in? Or rather, what compiler (for Windows) should I get? Maybe I can step through the thing to see where it fails (I at least know that much about programming >.< )
6765  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Government Cannot Outlaw Bitcoin, it's Impossible! on: August 12, 2011, 07:47:33 PM
Anyone care to explain here just how a government can attempt to outlaw bitcoin?

By outlawing the use of the concept rather than any particular implementation of it.

The law and associated penalties would only need be harsh enough to destroy market confidence.  It wouldn't take that much.

You cannot outlaw the use of a concept that injures nobody.

They did it with "gay" for a few decades/centuries, so why not?
6766  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin block size on: August 12, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
given the number of 4000 average TXN per second at 438 bytes per TXN

1752000bytes per second
105120000 bytes per minute
6307200000 bytes per hour
147825000 kilobytes per day
~140 gigabytes per day
~51456 terabytes per year (365)

seeing these numbers makes you wonder really wonder. what is the solution?

I think you may have mixed up your labeling there. ~140 * 365 = ~51456 GIGAbytes, not terabytes. ~51 terabytes per year isn't really that bad today for a professional data storage place, and likely will be something home users can get 10 years from now (according to this http://www.pricewatch.com/hard_removable_drives/ ~51 terabytes only costs about $1,774.80 today, which already isn't much compared to what some of the bigger mining rig operators spend. This will likely drop to $200 in ten years)
6767  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: By any other name on: August 12, 2011, 07:26:29 PM
I kind of don't like the name "bitcoin" either. Mainly because the plural version is kind of meh. A few bitcoins? A lot of bitcoin? I think the "coin" part of it is weird sounding.
6768  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [reddit] The real cost of bitcoin? - Breaking Down the Math on: August 12, 2011, 06:56:49 PM
Divide it by the number of users instead, since users/holders benefit directly from having their Bitcoin stores secured. Even if we use a very conservative estimate of 60,000 (MtGox registration database from last month, which doesn't include people from China or Poland), 1,297/60,000 comes out to about $0.02 per person per hour. About $0.50 a day or less isn't much to secure millions of dollars, and I suspect the actual cost per person is even less.
6769  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Government Cannot Outlaw Bitcoin, it's Impossible! on: August 12, 2011, 06:48:19 PM
Bitcoin transactions will be added to the taxcode at some point.

Likely it'll be treated the same as any other foreign currency: you pay taxes on your profits when you convert them into your home country currency. (I suspect it should be treated like that already, especially if your profits are HUGE, and you want to stay safe and avoid IRS audits and jail)
6770  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Vanitygen: Vanity bitcoin address generator [v0.17] on: August 12, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
So, does anyone else have/had an issue where olcvanitygen never finds a matching key, and just continues searching regardless of how easy the request is?
6771  Economy / Economics / Re: What does a Free Market mean to you? on: August 12, 2011, 05:01:46 PM
But with 20%+ of people jobless - and many of those willing to work, just unable to find work - where do they get money?  I've seen no evidence that removing the minimum wage and moving towards other free market measures would even make up for this amount.

Unemployment rate is about 4.5% for those with a college education. That suggests that the people who can't get jobs should maybe focus on getting higher education, or at least going to a school specializing in some profession.

Ugh.  Education is a whole new can of worms in a thread that already had enough problems.

Consider this theory:  Having a college education does not cause employment.  Employment and college are both effects of being the sort of person that normally goes to college.

huh, good point. I never thought of this beyond thinking about low v.s high skilled workers in a supply-demand system, where high skilled are always in lower supply than needed.
6772  Economy / Economics / Re: Bubble and crashes on: August 12, 2011, 04:56:14 PM
BitCon 2011? I'm not sure 'Con' is the best representation for a financial instrument. Smiley

Well, the biggest bank in the game SecondLife had an administrator/representative who was a fox (had a fox avatar). ... though that bank did turn out to be somewhat of a ponzi scheme :/
6773  Economy / Economics / Re: BTC = $19?! on: August 12, 2011, 04:20:45 PM
One thing is assured with bitcoin investments: we will never hear today from those people who purchased bitcoins at $20, $25, and even $30.

I'm still here. Bought at various times from $6 to $20. Bought a few grand at $20 actually. Still holding, still ok, still expecting it to go up eventually, and still buying (at $10 now).
6774  Economy / Economics / Re: What does a Free Market mean to you? on: August 12, 2011, 03:10:14 PM
But with 20%+ of people jobless - and many of those willing to work, just unable to find work - where do they get money?  I've seen no evidence that removing the minimum wage and moving towards other free market measures would even make up for this amount.

Unemployment rate is about 4.5% for those with a college education. That suggests that the people who can't get jobs should maybe focus on getting higher education, or at least going to a school specializing in some profession.
6775  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Government Cannot Outlaw Bitcoin, it's Impossible! on: August 12, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
In order for the government to effectively outlaw bitcoin, they would have to outlaw the exchanging of encrypted numerical data. Nothing short of this, could effect bitcoin, legally.

if I follow your reasoning, in order for the government to effectively outlaw violence, they would have to outlaw the exchange of kinetic energy ?


They already outlaw intentional aggravated application of Newton's Third Law of Motion to people's bodies.
6776  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 8 Bitcoin Weaknesses that Affect the Economy on: August 12, 2011, 02:19:52 PM
2) The utter ridiculous hassle of having to deal with multitudes of addresses to get any measure of privacy or know who sent you bitcoins.
No Mom, that's your address this time, really, it just changes every time you use it. No it is him. The money Uncle Ted sent you was sent to this address see, that's how you know it's from him. No, that was the address from before, it's different now. No, when Chris sends you money it's this address. No, you're suppose to use this address for now with Aunt Sally. No, it still in the same wallet. No, they are all different ... ! ... look ... how about I just get you a prepaid VISA card?

Mom, imagine your Bitcoin wallet is a stack of envelopes you store cash in. You can get as many envelopes as you want, and for all the cash you receive, you get to pick which envelope you store it in. If you don't care where the money came from, just stick all your cash into the same envelope. If you want to separate the money and track whether it came from Ted or Chris, just ask them to put the cash they send you into their own separate envelopes. You can even label those envelopes as "Cash from Ted" and "Cash from Chris." The only difference between actual envelopes and Bitcoin is that instead of you getting the cash and stuffing it into an envelope yourself, you give those envelopes to other people and ask them to put the money there themselves. Don't worry, they can only put money in. They can't take any of it out unless they ask you to put the money into one of their envelopes, and you do it yourself.


Regarding #3, personally, I think a few people with an ENORMOUS amount of money invested in a project have an ENORMOUS incentive to see the project succeed, so I actually see this as a strength. In other words, had bitcoin started the way you suggested, we'd still have a few nerds with a little bit of cash still stuck in their parent's basement (sorry for stereotyping, rich nerds Smiley  ), but instead we have a few nerds who suddenly have A LOT of cash to invest in developing this system.

As for #4, Bitcoin is doing just fine on Android, and that OS has more users than iPhone, so even if Apple never allows any Bitcoin apps, it'll only hurt them (more) in the end.
6777  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: August 12, 2011, 01:46:15 PM
Ok, we replace 1000 farmers for 50 farmers and 5 engineers .
Can't all these 945 people do anything of value for those 55?


In a monetary system, they can either die or do increasingly menial, repetitive, unproductive, demeaning or otherwise slavish labor in their own or foreign land.

Ok, answer this then: why is it that in our monetary system, technology has progressed exponentially in the last 150 years, replacing millions of jobs with automated systems, yet the unemployment rate has held steady with an average of 4% to 6% (not including market crashes)? Do you believe that this is because the number of janitorial and financial jobs has increased?

Also, is the point of your argument that:

Automation/technology is BAD because it destroys jobs, but only because, due to money, jobs are needed to survive, so to fix this issue, we need to get rid of money, but continue to allow automation/technology to destroy jobs?
6778  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Mt. Gox acquires Bitomat.pl - consumer protection in the free market! on: August 11, 2011, 05:16:50 PM
Great. Now I feel REALLY guilty for using another exchange for my last Bitcoin purchase  Cry
6779  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: August 11, 2011, 04:02:22 PM
And why would you want to labor of the other people if thing can be done faster and better by automation processes.

Actually, one important point on this. Luddites fear that machines/automation will kill jobs. After all, a single combine harvester with a single driver takes the job away from dozens, maybe hundreds, of farmers.
What they don't realize is that automation and machines creates way more jobs that it destroys. Those jobs just move into different areas. That single combine harvester replaced 100 farmers with thousands of engineers, steel workers, chemists, botanists, mechanics, oil producers, etc. Automation will just take this a step further, replacing manual laborers with more thinkers/designers. The work will be easier, but there will likely be a lot more of it.
6780  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: August 11, 2011, 03:58:21 PM

We don't exchange the products of our labor for money because we want it, what we want is the porducts of the labour of other people.
And why would you want to labor of the other people if thing can be done faster and better by automation processes.

Do you need that many prostitutes ?

Any amount of automation will ALWAYS require someone's labor behind it. Even if you have machines that can use 3D printers to print out more machines and can fix/maintain those other machines, you still need someone to take the time to invent, design, and improve those machines. 3D Cad design and engineering is A LOT of work, and requires a lot of different specialized education. You would need people who have specialty in electronics, physics and engineering, software development, chemistry (to create new stronger materials), architectural design, and for robots that grow food, biology and botany. After all those people get together, you'd also need specialists in 3D engineering design and CAD software design, as well as resource and operations management to make sure all materials for these machines can be acquired and are used correctly. Getting specialized in these fields takes A LOT of time and work. Why wouldn't these people ask "Why am I busting my butt, spending YEARS to learn this stuff, just to provide these goods/services to people so that those people won't have to work or learn, and have everything they want provided to them?" Sure, there will be a few (maybe a lot) of people who are interested in these fields, but why would they want to do this work for others without asking for anything in return? And what if there is a shortage of people to do these things? Will someone have to force people to work on this?
I think THE ONLY way RBE is even possible is if machines replace the only type of work they still can't, which is creative thinking. But, once machines are able to think and invent as well as humans, our race becomes obsolete, anyway (especially since machines will likely figure there's no point in spending their resources on us)
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