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721  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:47:26 PM
For traditional money, you need merchant acceptance to be useful, so it never goes beyond boarder of a country. But bitcoin is more universal form of money, you don't really need merchants to accept the payment, you can easily exchange to what ever currency they accept. It is amazing that you can exchange it to any currency on localbitcoins, no other currency in the world have this kind of worldwide exchangeability

This isn't entirely accurate. If you could do nothing with bitcoin but convert it to fiat, then it would have low utility and low value. It is only because you can purchase things with bitcoin that it has value. Look at all the altcoins that serve no market function: they're all virtually worthless because the only thing you can do with them is exchange them from bitcoin to the altcoin and back. No one accepts them for any goods and services, so they have no value because they don't serve a function. There's no point to them.

There are many financial products that you can not find any merchant accepting them for goods and services: Bonds, stocks, options, futures, gold etc... But they usually worth a lot. From a pure financial point of view, as long as there is exchange, anything that have value is interchangeable. Similarly, those altcoins also have value if you can sell them for bitcoin and then sell bitcoin for fiat money. The reason that merchants do not accept altcoin is because their infrastructure is magnitudes weaker than bitcoin, and it is enough to have one cryptocurrency in merchants many different payment options

722  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:37:46 PM

The reality is, throughout human history, money's value has never come from transaction demand, be it grain, gold, or fiat money. It comes mainly from the property that it can be trusted to hold value in a relatively long time, and secondly it can be accepted widely


The grain is useful in feeding us, so it has value. The fiat money has no value if it is not used in transaction, or if it cannot be used to buy things. The value of bitcoin is from the trust we can use it to buy things.

If your fiat money lose half of its value every day (e.g. everything's price doubles every day), then even every merchant accept it as payment, you will get rid of it as quick as possible. To be able to store value over a long time is the most import prerequisite for any kind of money. You can observe that when bitcoin price rises, merchant acceptance are higher, since it can hold value very well. When the price falls, more merchant will refuse to accept it

723  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:23:28 PM
most the value from bitcoin comes from speculation from people who dont intend to use it to buy
things. Most people who I talk to just keep their coins and sell on rise and buy on dips. They don't
actually use it to pay bills etc.

Exactly. The demand for bitcoin mainly comes from investment and saving, and the effect on its value is much more powerful than spending:

Buying one bitcoin and store it for 10 years, it disappears from market for 10 years thus permanently reduce the market supply. However, you have to spend it every 60 minutes to keep it constantly occupied thus permanently reduce the market supply, so you need much larger transaction activity to reach same level of effect as saving

Most people don't realize that saving is the largest demand for money because it has the lowest velocity. And nowadays you barely can find some project worth investing, almost everything is overproduced, more and more people from new generation are aiming for early retirement, all creating a large demand for investment/saving
724  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:13:46 PM
No matter how much the transaction demand is, if a money is quickly losing its value every day, it will be refused in transaction.

If money is "refused in transaction", then demand is lower, negating the premise.

If a money is depreciating fast, then people will refuse to accept it, thus further accelerate its depreciation. When hyperinflation happens it goes quite quick, even central bank raise the interest rate to 10% does not help to prevent its fall. It started at exchange and capital market level, consumers are the last to feel the effect

Transaction demand comes from trading, if fiat money are not accepted, some other transaction medium will gain traction. I guess the next big bitcoin rally comes when we were hit by a wave of severe inflation
725  Other / Archival / Re: $1000 by 1q 2016? on: December 11, 2015, 03:57:52 PM
Difficulty must rise. I guess the current rally is caused by some inside information about the mass deployment of <0.1W/GH miners, at least 3x increase in difficulty will cause a price rally of at least 3x
726  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Gigantic difficulty jump of the last few days (speculation) on: December 11, 2015, 08:09:13 AM
The latest news is that kncminer's account has been shut down by their bank, why? Might because of large amount of suspicious funds entering their account

Mining has become the new way to launder money totally clean, that's the reason difficulty just keeps rising
727  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: BTC Network about to hit 1 exahash for the first time over a 24 hour period!!! on: December 11, 2015, 08:05:34 AM
Mining has become a business with very large barrier of entry, this is really not good for decentralization. Chinese government only need to take down those large Chinese mining pools to heavily disrupt the bitcoin network
728  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 11, 2015, 07:44:39 AM

The best scenario is that all the large players out there have deep IT expertise and can easily get what those new changes' pros and cons, but in my experience it is not the case. Rich people have totally another set of criteria in decision making

If we speak about SW in particular, I don't see it too complex to be understood by miners. The recent BIP65 rollover, which is a necessary step towards fully-functioning Lightning Network, is going very fast. Of course SW is a fair bit more complex than BIP65, I guess it shows us that miners either a) possess enough expertise to evaluate proposals; b) trust core devs' expertise. I'd prefer 'a', to be honest Roll Eyes

They are totally different, SW is a redesign of bitcoin, while BIP 65 is a planned patch toward lightning network which is easy to understand since it is very similar to a clearing based solution. Lightning network make things more simple (combining thousands of transactions into one) while SW make things more complex (split one transaction into two chains)
729  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 11, 2015, 05:46:13 AM
My understanding is that decision making power in this case very much rests with the developers. The consensus so far seems that Segregated Witness will be proposed as a soft fork when the BIP is published. Mining pools, exchanges and processors have no direct say. All that is needed for the BIP to be merged is agreement among the lead developers. That would be Van der Laan, Gavin Andresen, Jeff Garzik, Gregory Maxwell and Pieter Wuille. Correct me if I missed a name or am in error.

This will be very true if you add Btc guild's owner and dial back time to 2013, where they successfully prevented an accident fork by commanding more than 60% of the hash power and forced the chain go back to their desired direction

And today? Btc guild does not even exist, large mining pools from China have dominated hash power distribution, and even inside the core devs there are large disagreement

The core devs are losing dominance because bitcoin is open source. Suppose that a group of large mining pools are not satisfied with the solution proposed by core devs, they could easily deploy their own R&D people and make a version that they prefer, and because they have dominant hashing power, when they roll out the change, their fork will be the strongest chain immediately. Of course they could not persuade others to join them, and they risk being abandoned by the other pools and exchanges, but having so much hash power definitely can affect lots of things

This was not the case during early days of bitcoin when mining pools were just a couple of hobbyists, they didn't have resources to implement such large code change, they only listen to core devs (I still remember the deepbit pool refused to upgrade to any latest version and stayed at 0.3 for a very long time Cheesy That could be the earliest case of mining pool not following core devs)

Fortunately, chinese mining pools are not very interested in codes, so core devs still hold a lot of saying power, but when there is a disagreement inside core devs, we have already seen on BIP101, miners have veto right

Let me quote Bitmain’s Pan Zhibiao's word here:
“There are many technical solutions. Every solution has pros and cons. The miners are put on a pedestal to be a jury. Right now there is no lawyer on both side. We need a lawyer, we need more discussion, more evidence. ”

I happened recall the movie "Divergent", there are 5 factions, each doing its own job, maintaining a balanced society, hopefully we can reach that status of balance here
730  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:48:04 AM
Hoarding works to increase value untill it reaches the point where everyone sells. But Without buying and selling products mass adoption cant happen due to no where to spend them.

Not everyone will sell at the same point, everyone has their criteria, so it is evened out in a longer time frame. There are 370,000 babies born every day, never ending saving capital inflow, keeps its value afloat

The current monetary system intentionally discourage saving by inflation and punish savers, but the demand for saving still exists, especially in new generations that seek early retirement, so it ends up with higher price for capital goods, bitcoin is also one of them
731  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 11, 2015, 04:35:13 AM
I believe it still needs demand for the price to go up though, this is just like a demand and supply law for fiat money.
If for instance US wants to buy products from Japan, they would need YEN before they can do so. And so YEN's demand go up and so is its value.
IF bitcoin merchants only accepts bitcoin for the fear of chargebacks, this means people will have to buy BTCs thus making BTC value go up.

Yen's value is not directly related to the demand of Japanese goods, this is clearly proved by the Plaza Accord which made Japanese Yen doubled its value against USD over 3 years. Central banks can easily manipulate the forex exchange rate with their large reserve, which is magnitudes larger than the import/export of a country

Similarly, bitcoin's value is not directly related to the transaction demand of bitcoin (which is very little) but affected by those large capitals on exchanges. The demand does not come from transaction, but from investment, larger effect

In anyone's eyes, bitcoin is no difference than a foreign currency that does not accepted by majority of merchants in his country. Suppose that bitcoin is selected by a small pacific country as its national currency, and maybe no one will ever travel to that country in their life time, would that make bitcoin suddenly more or less valuable ?  No, it is still the exchange decide its value, and has nothing to do with the GDP of that country, since the economy activity of that country is too small comparing with the capital flows on exchanges
732  Economy / Economics / Re: The economic model behind Bitcoin is flawed on: December 11, 2015, 01:37:28 AM
Did you miss that I said before? Fiat money's drawbacks are fairly well known (which I also mentioned, by the way). Do you see only what your eyes want to see, huh? And no, fiat money doesn't cut it (as a better system)...

In fact, for more than 40 years it is a parasite living off people across the world

Wtf, you should have known that it has been so (if so) since Bretton Woods (1944), or even since 1933 when Roosevelt banned gold (thereby making it impossible for ordinary people to convert their dollars into bullion gold). Some go as far as to claim that it all has started in 1913 when the Fed was established (injecting fake dollars into the system). Make your choice, buddy...

When the fiat actually took over

At least before 1971 FED still can not print at will, it is limited by the number of gold reserve, which require equal amount of value to acquire. Then it became a "I print money, you work" model, this is equal to "all your properties belongs to me"

You are uninformed and seem to be obsessed with that, lol. I asked you to choose the year right to check how familiar you are with the question. You failed the test, wow. One of the reasons to establish the Fed (as you may remember, in 1913, i.e. almost 60 years before 1971) was a recurrent shortage of liquidity, that is, the true dollars that were fully backed up by gold. The Fed was allowed to print its Federal Reserve notes that were required to be covered in gold only partially. In 1933 the former were abandoned altogether, and the latter became what is today known as the US dollar. Nixon had to cancel the gold content of the dollar since France (and a few other countries) demanded to exchange their dollar reserves for gold in the second half of the 60s. The US dollar had fully divorced gold long before that...

Many consider year 1933 as the end of the gold standard epoch

I suggest you google "gold standard". Anyway, no meaning in arguing over details, let's say that creating money out of nothing has been existing since 1913, then we have more reason to flee it since the scam has been going on for more than 100 years

The establish of FED is the result of centuries effort of bankers since John Law tried to create money out of nothing. This financial alchemy can work because majority of people want money, it is actually a psychological game. If no one want money, only want physical goods/services direct delivery,  then this trick will not work. Unfortunately, people all want money, and they became enslaved by their own desire

In fact I regard any kind of fiat money (even it is backed by gold or assets) to be a scam, the reason has been discussed long ago (With one ounce of gold, I can issue money to buy another ounce of gold and repeat the process until I have bought everything on the planet). Financial is all about fraud, if you think you are doing just fine, then it is very likely you are the one that is being scammed
733  Economy / Economics / Re: The economic model behind Bitcoin is flawed on: December 10, 2015, 08:27:28 PM
Did you miss that I said before? Fiat money's drawbacks are fairly well known (which I also mentioned, by the way). Do you see only what your eyes want to see, huh? And no, fiat money doesn't cut it (as a better system)...

In fact, for more than 40 years it is a parasite living off people across the world

Wtf, you should have known that it has been so (if so) since Bretton Woods (1944), or even since 1933 when Roosevelt banned gold (thereby making it impossible for ordinary people to convert their dollars into bullion gold). Some go as far as to claim that it all has started in 1913 when the Fed was established (injecting fake dollars into the system). Make your choice, buddy...

When the fiat actually took over

At least before 1971 FED still can not print at will, it is limited by the number of gold reserve, which require equal amount of value to acquire. Then it became a "I print money, you work" model, this is equal to "all your properties belongs to me"

Of course with a limited money supply model, the money hoarder gains, but anyone can choose to save money thus benefiting from saving (In fact saving money is difficult thus the reward worth it). But in fiat money system, all the benefits goes to the money creator, rest of the people do not have a choice
734  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 10, 2015, 08:17:04 PM
I find it hilarious when some people would get pissed off at the fact that you wouldn't use your Bitcoin frequently for transactions and just hoard. It's like they want to tell you what to do your money, when the fundamental point of Bitcoin is precisely this fredoom to do whatever you want.

Nonetheless I still believe in a worldwide accepted Bitcoin that success to scale to global levels, we should aim for that in any case.

Any rational person would first spend fiat money which lose its value constantly, they would get rid of fiat money as quick as possible in order to not be hurt by inflation, while they will hold bitcoin as long as possible in order to gain from deflation

If you have 10 bitcoin and 4K dollar, which one do you spend first?
735  Economy / Economics / Bitcoin does not need to be spent constantly to maintain its value on: December 10, 2015, 07:43:34 PM
There is a common misleading concept: Money's value comes from its transaction demand, without transaction demand money worth nothing

The reality is, throughout human history, money's value has never come from transaction demand, be it grain, gold, or fiat money. It comes mainly from the property that it can be trusted to hold value in a relatively long time, and secondly it can be accepted widely

No matter how much the transaction demand is, if a money is quickly losing its value every day, it will be refused in transaction. This is also the first mandate of FED, e.g. low inflation rate

Whether a person trust certain kind of payment medium depends on his financial knowledge. Some people would like to accept Euro when they are in US, because they often travel to Europe and know that Euro is accepted there. Managers of large enterprises would accept stocks and options as payment medium because they know they can liquidate them at exchanges for fiat money any time

From this point of view, as long as people knows there is an easy and quick way to exchange their bitcoin for fiat money, then they would accept them the same way as they accept foreign currency, stocks or options

Bitcoin is not used a lot in transaction. Its value ultimately comes from people's trust of its limited total supply, thus continuous purchase of bitcoin to store value. It is a superior form of store of value given you have enough IT skill

For traditional money, you need merchant acceptance to be useful, so it never goes beyond boarder of a country. But bitcoin is more universal form of money, you don't really need merchants to accept the payment, you can easily exchange to what ever currency they accept. It is amazing that you can exchange it to any currency on localbitcoins, no other currency in the world have this kind of worldwide exchangeability

Of course with the help of payment processors, merchant will also accept bitcoin. But since most of them just convert to fiat money behind the scene, it is still exchanges that matters most. And who is buying on exchanges? Those people who purchase bitcoin for long term saving or speculation, and international remittance sometimes
736  Economy / Economics / Re: The economic model behind Bitcoin is flawed on: December 10, 2015, 06:22:36 PM

"it is the best monetary system in existence today from an economic stand-point."


This is human's adaptive nature, they usually accept what exists as best. Have you seen those north korean women meeting their leader? They would gratitude to even cry

Did you miss that I said today? Its drawbacks are fairly well known (which I also mentioned, by the way). Do you see only what your eyes want to see, huh? And no, Bitcoin doesn't cut it (as a better system)...

In fact, as of now it is a parasite living off fiat systems across the world

Did you miss that I said before? Fiat money's drawbacks are fairly well known (which I also mentioned, by the way). Do you see only what your eyes want to see, huh? And no, fiat money doesn't cut it (as a better system)...

In fact, for more than 40 years it is a parasite living off people across the world
737  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 10, 2015, 05:15:58 PM
Exactly. If a solution is not understandable for users with average IT expertise, then it will never be understandable for anyone with even less IT knowledge. And typically owners of large mining farms and exchanges do not have time to do those learning, so they tends to select the solution that they can understand or listen to people they like. This will turn the decision making into politics, and who are good at lobbying and PR will push in their changes. And this is not people would like to see in bitcoin. So, the knowledge gap of different participants decided that you really can't reach a wide consensus upon a radical or complex solution, XT's failure already proved that
Understanding can be of different levels: conceptual, algorithmic, implementational... I bet most people don't quite grasp how Bitcoin's Script stack machine is implemented, though it doesn't prevent them from utilising it, if they know conceptually at least. What's enough for most people is that a particular component has been peer-reviewed thoroughly to prove it's safe to use it.

Indeed, during early days of bitcoin, developers have much more freedom to do whatever they want, partly due to that no one cares about it, and partly due to that there are no major interested stake holders because of its low value

But now situation is different, the network has attracted so much venture capital and investors, these guys all have their own agenda thus the political landscape has changed. A good example is kncminer, they took the crowd funding money, realized their projects and start to drive their own mining operation secretly

At this stage, posting on a forum or reddit or checkin some code in git does not make a lot of sense, because the decision making power is not in the hand of developers, but in the hand of large mining pools, exchanges and payment processors. If devs represent a complex solution which those large players do not understand thoroughly, they would just ignore it (they have to protect their million dollar investment as best as they can). They could just keep running the old client, and build their clearing and settlement channel to avoid the scaling problem altogether

Imagine that when the blocks are full and each transaction cost a lot to clear, then only large service providers would be able to use blockchain to clear with their business partners. Users will find out that using web wallet services will cost just a few cents as usual and clears instantly, but using core client will cost $100 and maybe confirmed after 1 day, so they will definitely move to use blockchain.info or similar web wallet instead

You see, this is also a solution, since the risk on individual service provider is much smaller than the risk of the whole network, it can be accepted. And this solution is much easier for every investor to understand than that Segregated witness complication. In fact, most of the people are still very used to centralized service provider, so they would accept a locally centralized solution easily

The best scenario is that all the large players out there have deep IT expertise and can easily get what those new changes' pros and cons, but in my experience it is not the case. Rich people have totally another set of criteria in decision making
738  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How long will 1 year 25 weeks take to download (file size?) on: December 10, 2015, 04:50:56 AM
It's the verification part most resource consuming. Once downloaded, you would never want to do that again since next time it will take much longer due to the increase in average block size
739  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Segregated witness - The solution to Scalability (short term) on: December 10, 2015, 04:33:58 AM
My worry here is that we seem to have a large cadre of proponents of this new feature that are not able to articulate answers to reasonable questions. I see a lot of demurring of the nature of "perhaps the devs can come by and explain it better". It makes be think that perhaps these proponents likewise don't understand the details of what is being proposed deeply enough to understand the implications upon the questions being asked.

Exactly. If a solution is not understandable for users with average IT expertise, then it will never be understandable for anyone with even less IT knowledge. And typically owners of large mining farms and exchanges do not have time to do those learning, so they tends to select the solution that they can understand or listen to people they like. This will turn the decision making into politics, and who are good at lobbying and PR will push in their changes. And this is not people would like to see in bitcoin. So, the knowledge gap of different participants decided that you really can't reach a wide consensus upon a radical or complex solution, XT's failure already proved that

I still don't really understand how that can be implemented as a soft fork. Softfork means backward compatible, when the upgraded SW clients broadcast new blocks through out the network, how come the original core client can accept such kind of strange block which does not contain signature data?
740  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Has Wired discovered the real Satoshi Nakamoto? (.. this time) on: December 10, 2015, 03:22:25 AM
That's quite an interesting read, more detailed than Wired

So apparently Craig sold 1.1 million BTCs back in Sept 2011 for $100,000 and was trying to form a secret Bitcoin trust in the Seychelles
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2644014-Tulip-Trust-Redacted.html

It seems the numbers and values of bitcoin at that time did not match: In september 2011, 1 million BTC worth more than 5 million dollar. And you really can not do a lot with 100K dollar in a trust

And by looking at such a contract you will feel sad that no matter how secure bitcoin is, you still can not trust another person without a contract and the protection of law enforcement. Maybe that's why he want to write all these into blockchain, but then the problem is who is going to enforce it without law enforcement?
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