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721  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 02, 2012, 12:06:16 AM
Actually I think a larger quote from Eistenstein may be of value here in explaining the “why”:

Quote from: Eistenstein
"Gesell's phrase, "... a monstrous hallucination, the doctrine of 'value'..." hints at another effect of demurrage—it makes us question the notion of “value.” Value assigns to each object in the world a number. It associates an abstraction, changeless and independent, with that which always changes and that exists in relationship to all else. It is part of humanity's descent into representation, the reduction of the world into a data set. Demurrage reverses this thinking and removes an important boundary between the human realm and the natural realm. When money is no longer preferred to goods, we will lose the habit of defining a thing by how much it is worth.

Whereas interest promotes the discounting of future cash flows, demurrage encourages long-term thinking. In present-day accounting, a forest that has the capacity to generate one million dollars a year every year into the foreseeable future is considered more valuable if immediately cut down for a profit of 50 million dollars. (The net present value of the sustainable forest calculated at a discount rate of 5% is only $20 million.) This state of affairs results in the infamously short-sighted behavior of corporations that sacrifice (even their own) long-term well-being for the short-term results of the fiscal quarter. Such behavior is perfectly rational in an interest-based economy, but in a demurrage system, pure self-interest would dictate that the forest be preserved. No longer would greed motivate the robbing of the future for the benefit of the present. The exponential discounting of future cash flows implies the "cashing in" of the entire earth as opposed to an immediate wholesale “liquidation” of our remaining resources.

Whereas interest tends to concentrate wealth, demurrage promotes its distribution. In any economy with a specialization of labor beyond the family level, human beings need to perform exchanges in order to thrive. Both interest and demurrage represent a fee for the use of money, but the key difference is that in the former system, the fee accrues to those who already have money, while in the latter system it is levied upon them. Wealth comes with a high maintenance cost, thereby recreating the dynamics that governed hunter-gatherer attitudes toward accumulations of possessions.

Whereas security in an interest-based system comes from accumulating money, in a demurrage system it comes from having productive channels through which to direct it – that is, to become a nexus of the flow of wealth and not a point for its accumulation. In other words, it puts the focus on relationships, not on "having". The demurrage system accords with a different sense of self, affirmed not by enclosing more and more of the world within the confines of me and mine, but by developing and deepening relationships with others. It encourages reciprocation, sharing, and the rapid circulation of wealth.

In today's system, it is much better to have a thousand dollars than it is for ten people to owe you a hundred dollars. In a demurrage system the opposite is true. Since money decays with time, if I have some money I'm not using right now, I am happy to lend it to you, just as if I had more bread than I could eat, I would give you some. If I need some in the future, I can call in my obligations or create new ones with anyone within my network who has more money than he or she needs to meet immediate needs. As Gesell put it:

Quote from: Gesell
With the introduction of Free-Money, money has been reduced to the rank of umbrellas; friends and acquaintances assist each other mutually as a matter of course with loans of money. No one keeps, or can keep, reserves of money, since money is under compulsion to circulate. But just because no one can form reserves of money, no reserves are needed. For the circulation of money is regular and uninterrupted.

No longer would money be a scarce commodity, hoarded and kept away from others; rather it would tend to circulate at the maximum possible "velocity". The issuer would ensure stable prices (P) according to the equation of exchange (MV=PQ) by regulating the amount of currency in circulation (M) to correspond to total real economic output (Q). The same result could be achieved by linking the currency to a basket of commodities whose level corresponds to overall economic activity, as proposed by Bernard Lietaer.

The dynamics of a demurrage-based currency system ensure a sufficient amount for all. This is in contradiction to today's economy in which a surfeit of material goods is coupled with their grossly unequal distribution. Hence the deeper contradiction in which, on the one hand, there are hundreds of millions of people who are unemployed or engaged in trivial, meaningless jobs, while on the other hand there is much important, meaningful work left undone—highlighting a disconnect between human creativity and human needs. "With Free-Money demand is inseparable from money, it is no longer a manifestation of the will of the possessors of money. Free-Money is not the instrument of demand, but demand itself, demand materialized and meeting, on an equal footing, supply, which always was, and remains, something material."

This is from a larger work, Money: A new beginning.
722  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 11:43:41 PM
@herzmeister, first let me quote jtimon from his post introducing the idea of Freicoin over a year ago. He did a good job listing the advantages of a demurrage currency, and more importantly included links to the relevant economic theories:

Freicoins can be created forever as an incentive and still have a fixed monetary base if the amount of newly created reward for miners is equal the amount of destroyed freicoins.
How can freicoins be removed from circulation?
Each time a transaction is done a percentage of the freicoins in the transaction are destroyed depending on how much time the freicoins have been hold since the last transaction. This is called demurrage.

It reduces interest rates. Concretely, it attacks the basic interest or liquidity premium. Defined as
gross interest = basic interest + risk premium + inflation premium
Demurrage has other benefits. For example, money with demurrage is crisis resistant: it will continue to circulate even with deflation. Deflation discourages real capital accumulation and demurrage can solve it.
Also, interest makes the financial market "think" in the short term.

For more information about demurrage you can read Silvio Gesell's main book on the web or in pdf.
I think the main flaw of Gesell's proposal is that he wanted the government to issue his freigeld, but there wasn't the block chain back then.

With merged mining, freicoin can co-exist with bitcoin.

One can say that demurrage is worse than inflation for savers, but I think that's not true.
Others claim that demurrage and inflation have the same effect. Inflation is worse at all lights.
Other common criticism is that no merchant would accept a money with demurrage, but there's many local currencies with demurrage operating today.

Do I think a global demurrage currency is a good thing? Yes, for the same reason that any global currency that is free of control from central bankers is a good thing. I feel that the local currency movement is misguided in trying to fight globalism, and the lack of similar restrictions on Freicoin is a good thing. Of course it is an opt-in proposal, so anyone can use it (or not use it) as they see fit.

Demurrage does not do anything specifically to fuel consumption--one could just as easily buy bonds, equities, bitcoins to get rid of unwanted freicoins. It does however incentivise long-term thinking and the acquisition of real capital when compared with high-interest currencies like deflationary Bitcoin or inflationary fiat. Here's a classic example:

Quote from: Charles Eistenstein
Whereas interest promotes the discounting of future cash flows, demurrage encourages long-term thinking. In present-day accounting, a forest that has the capacity to generate one million dollars a year every year into the foreseeable future is considered more valuable if immediately cut down for a profit of 50 million dollars. (The net present value of the sustainable forest calculated at a discount rate of 5% is only $20 million.) This state of affairs results in the infamously short-sighted behavior of corporations that sacrifice (even their own) long-term well-being for the short-term results of the fiscal quarter. Such behavior is perfectly rational in an interest-based economy, but in a demurrage system, pure self-interest would dictate that the forest be preserved. No longer would greed motivate the robbing of the future for the benefit of the present. The exponential discounting of future cash flows implies the "cashing in" of the entire earth as opposed to an immediate wholesale “liquidation” of our remaining resources.

So one could say that the “type” of consumerism encouraged by demurrage currencies (investment in real capital for increased production) is actually beneficial.
723  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 07:13:21 AM
Because I'm dirt-poor? Do you know how little government workers make? And it doesn't help that the cost-of-living adjustment for Mountain View is an inadequate joke. I'm living paycheck-to-paycheck, with two extra mouths to feed.

But that isn't even the point. If people think it's a good cause, that we're the right people to do it, and if they've got some cash to spare, they'll donate. That's an ethical transaction between us and them; why should you care?

This will be my last post on the subject. But feel free to engage me in a discussion about the merits of the proposal or demurrage currencies per se.
724  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 07:03:13 AM
Remember the term Open-source and free kind of go hand in hand. Asking people to fund your project goes against that very concept. Grin Grin
That couldn't be further from the truth. These days only a small minority of free or open-source software is developed and maintained as weekend/hobby projects.

But anyway, why should the quality of the idea represent a legitimate demand on my personal time and resources? I thought we were mostly libertarians here--what's wrong with seeking even minimal compensation just to cover the cost of production? Is there something inherently unethical about donating specifically to the cause of creating a open-source/free software project? Would you object to someone making a similar donation to the Debian foundation? What about the Google Summer of Code interns? Are they scum for accepting stipends for the work they do? I really don't see the logic of that argument.

We priced the Indiegogo as low as we could make it while still doing a top-notch job, accomplishing all the goals listed in the timeframe specified. You might not believe it, but servers cost money to build and run, marketing artwork takes resources to make, and code takes time to build. $28k is our conservative, at-cost guestimate of how much it would take to complete the proposal and to do it right (no cutting corners), plus the Indiegogo fees and taxes.
725  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 06:10:16 AM
Or here's a thought: why don't you troll somewhere else?


I'm happy to respond to any reasonable questions about the economics of the proposal. But let's keep the discourse level-headed and rational, okay?
726  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 08:46:15 PM
$795 raised against a $28,000 windfall for the con-men behind this project with 44 days to go. At that burn rate the final result will be in keeping with the nature of the proposal- FAIL.

Well that remains to be seen. There's still quite a bit of time left and we've only just started to publicize.

In any case, if we don't make the goal then we'll just scale back some of the non-critical items, with the block chain pruning probably being the first to go--being the longest pole in the tent.
727  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 05:42:42 PM
What he considered to be an appropriate amount. What else matters?


Please, let's try to keep this on topic and without trolling.
728  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 08:02:16 AM
What I will do is become a miner and sell the coins and buy BTC.
Then you will be doing exactly what the currency is designed for.

Let me reiterate again: the purpose of this *coin is to cleanly separate the dual purposes of money, medium-of-exchange from store-of-value. You trade your mined freicoins for BTC, but the counter-party to that transaction doesn't want to hold on to freicoins any more than you do. So he uses it to buy services he needs, and the service provider gets rid of it by paying an employee, and that employee spends it buying groceries, and that grocer turns a profit and invests it in bitcoins, bringing the Freicoin cash back to the exchange, etc., etc. ad infinitum.

Bitcoin is and always will be an ideal mechanism for storing value, superior to Freicoin in that regard. That is expected, desirable, and by design.
729  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 29, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
No worries; just wanted to make sure there was no confusion  Wink
730  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 29, 2012, 07:00:30 PM
Actually that really is a coincidence (besides, Frei/“free, unencumbered, liberal” and Fried/“peace” are related lexicographically more by chance than by etymology).

“Freicoin” was the name given to a hypothetical bitcoin-based demurrage currency promoted by @jtimon on this forum about a year ago. It was through conversations with jtimon that parameters of this proposed alt chain were set. “Freicoin” itself is an nod to “Freigeld”, the hypothetical state-backed demurrage currency used by Gesell in his economic theories. In this context, “Frei” means free, no-cost, or unencumbered, and is a reference to the approx. 0% interest and easy access to credit it would provide.
731  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 28, 2012, 10:11:34 PM
If the goal is price stability or 0% basic interest (read Gesell for why these are linked and why they should be the goal), then you need to account for productivity and population growth as well. Historically, the sum total has been in the 4-5% range.
732  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [ANN] Tithe-o-coin: support your church on: June 28, 2012, 10:06:05 PM
funny
733  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 28, 2012, 05:49:43 AM
@herzmeister, @Bitinvestor, et al: my issue with Ripple isn't economic, it's societal. I don't want to take out a loan for a car and end up owing money to the people closest to me. That would poison relationships mighty quick. It's a fine idea for some circumstances, but not a universal panacea.

Since the miners will probably anyways need a way to know how much money currently is on each account to pull out their annual 4.4%, they'll have to create a huge number of bitdust transactions each block anyways. Maybe they'll need to include currently pending transactions for that? Anyways, the number of inflation transactions is likely much higher for a long time than the number of actual user transactions...

I agree, this concept seems impractical to me because it would cause a huge number of transactions with each block. In fact, the transactions would grow O(n²), with n being the number of account holders.
I'm not sure where you guys are coming up with these new transactions or what purpose they are supposed to serve. Demurrage is assessed in regular transactions by reducing the value of inputs based on the height of the block and age of the respective outputs. No new transactions are required, and it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

I guess that the most likely use case for freicoin could be that of entrepeneurs, and every other capital manager or borrower, who would prefer to be indebted in a money with the lowest possible price and interest rate. Most likely those guys would take the debt, put the money on safer shores (bitcoin, for example, or any real stock that they are trying to manage), and then they would be buying back the freicoins when they need them, when paying for products or services, or at least when they have to pay back their debt. So freicoin, as opposed to bitcoin, could be like a "debt apt money", and in it's use case would be complimentary to bitcoin, no opposed at it.
Precisely.
734  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 26, 2012, 08:32:28 PM
Carry a few extra cents? Or more likely merchants will price their goods at slightly less than whole-dollar values, as they seem to do anyway. It takes about 2 months for $1.00 to turn into 99¢.
735  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 26, 2012, 05:53:06 PM
Hmm.... How is inactivity defined? What if someone wrote a program to automatically transfer the balance every X number of days?
Demurrage is applied uniformly, not based on age (which of course would be easily avoidable). With each found block outstanding outputs are reduced by a factor of 8 x 10**-7 (1/1250000). Once difficulty stabilizes so that blocks are found with an average interval of 10 minutes, the comes to a cumulative rate equivalent to 4.4% annually.

What's your timeframe for this? Would you be willing to meet with a contact in Mountain View first?
Yes, I'd love to meet up with anyone interested and local. PM me.
736  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Nurturing AlternaCoins on: June 26, 2012, 05:05:59 AM
Gavin, I misinterpreted your original posting and I apologize for the passive aggressive hostility. You do good work; keep it up.
737  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 25, 2012, 07:56:17 PM
maaku, is this parallel to developing a blockchain for trading computation, or is this your main project, now?
Still working on that, but it's a different project. Doing it “right” would take a bit of effort, more than Freicoin, so it's on the back burner for now. But we are moving in that direction.
738  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 25, 2012, 07:54:43 PM
I think Silvio Gessels whole concept of "demurrage" is questionable. Forcing people to spend their money, does NOT create any more goods or services. Society does not get any richer, if money sloshes around faster.

Wealth is created by production, not consumption. When we can make things cheaper and faster, with less labour or energy, then there is more stuff to buy and everyone gets richer.

I agree with the premise but not the conclusion. The creation of wealth requires entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship requires capital. In a deflationary universe getting investment requires being able to beat bitcoin's ROI, since the investor's alternative is to buy bitcoin and sit on it. Depending on how bullish you are about bitcoin, that could be a tall order.

With Freicoin, on the other hand, if all you can do is break-even, you are already ahead. It'll be MUCH easier to find investment in Freicoin. (And before anyone says “but you could just buy bitcoins with freicoins!”--that's true, and it will be compensated for by the Bitcoin/Freicoin price.)

The inequity of the present fiat system, is because insiders have preferential access to credit, allowing them to benefit from inflation. Bitcoin has already solved that problem, so Freicoin is not needed.

A chief value of Freicoin would be in eliminating that inequity--demurrage has a similar pressure as inflation, but is assessed fairly against all. But I do not agree that elimination of inflation entirely is a good thing.

Part of what convinced me that the idea was doomed from the start when I presented it the first time was the observation that people actually DO care about the "There Will Never Be More Than 21 Million Bitcoins" part as a core attraction.  Inflatacoin lacks that appealing attribute, even if the truth of the matter is "You Will Be Long Dead Before There Is Ever More Than 21 Million Inflatacoins".

I would venture to say that's so important, that without it, Bitcoin is just another kind of dollar that isn't even a dollar.  It may as well just be digital Monopoly dollars.

Agreed. But that's why Bitcoin is a non-perishable commodity/store-of-wealth, and will, IMHO, *never* be a viable currency. Bitcoin is valuable for what it is, but it's properties are only well suited for a currency if you believe in the gold standard (I don't).

And why $28,000?  Bitcoin is open source software.  Just fork it, give it a new name, make the 2-3 lines of code changes needed to make it into inflatacoin, forge your new genesis block, release it into the wild, and see what happens.  Total cost, $0.

For inflatacoin/expcoin, yes. Demurrage throws a few kinks in there that make it slightly more difficult in terms of user interface and such since accounts are continuously decreasing in value. But that's not where most of the money will be spent.

The other things we will do is definitively solve the blockchain pruning problem, which is currently being discussed in the technical subforum and would be back-ported to bitcoin, and provide a website, animated video, and marketing materials to explain Freicoin to the non-bitcoin crowd. All of that takes time and money, and for some of resources we don't have in-house.
739  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 25, 2012, 04:46:32 PM
Inflation is simular to how scientists "stimulate" lab rats to solve puzzles by using electroshock. Why do you expect from people to volunteer to use it?

Maybe I have the misguided hope that enough people will be willing to look at the big picture and realize how both deflationary and inflationary currencies have significant problems, and that by separating the two (save in deflatacoin, spend in inflatacoin/demurrage), will create a virtuous cycle of investment that will do more to improve their financial outlook than the pittance of demurrage assessed against their stock of freicoins for day-to-day purchases? I.e, would they rather have a high-paying job in a booming industry at the cost of a fixed low-percent tax on money that they don't invest, or a good chance at no job at all in a prolonged recession?
740  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 25, 2012, 04:36:35 PM
I don't think there is a demand. I enthusiastically proposed something like this long ago and it was completely shot down. And that was without asking for $28k in donations.

The pejorative name given it was "Inflatacoin".

Yeah, well that's the main reason for the explicit Occupy tie-in. A demurrage currency would solve or prevent a lot of relevant problems that a lot of people care about, but not anyone on this forum it seems.

“Inflatacoin” as a pejorative belies a fundamental misunderstanding of macroeconomics. I don't like the effect inflation has on my savings. But I do appreciate that the pressure of inflation has caused investment and productivity innovation that has greatly improved my life and perhaps even brought my day job into existence.

I stopped reading here. You can't prevent the accumulation of wealth. How would Freicoin prevent people from hoarding dollars, gold, or bitcoins?

Then you should have kept reading because the very next paragraph addresses that point. Freicoin does nothing to prevent the accumulation of wealth, nor would that be a desirable outcome; I'm a libertarian, not a communist. You just don't save with freicoins; use bitcoin for that.

In an ideal world, I would have a “checking account” denominated in Freicoin where I receive my paycheck and from which I draw on for daily expenses, and a “savings account” denominated in Bitcoin. Does that make sense?


Addressed in the 3rd-from-the-bottom FAQ, but in summary: OCCCU is centrally controlled by a faceless “general assembly” that decides how much demurrage to take out of people's accounts, how much “basic income” to dole out, and what to do with the proceeds.

I find that utterly repulsive. You should own what's yours, and no one should be able to take that away from you or change the rules at a later point in time. By using Freicoin you opt-in to the demurrage, which is assessed according to the unchanging network rules and distributed fairly to miners, but that's it and no one can change the rules on you later on.
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