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The RSM wallet now contains BTC100.81 and we've been pledged a further BTC30.00. So no funds are needed from me and we can go ahead with the KNC purchases tomorrow depending on the results of the motion. We're going to cap fundraising now as I can't see us raising another $7,000 of BTC fast enough to pre-order a third 400(GH/s)@28nm Jupiter.
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Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.
If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".
Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s
If I wasn't in RSM for the long haul I'd have sold the shares I bought and doubled my money. Any short to medium investor would be stupid not to. If I truly believed the bubble would burst I would sell my 16,000 shares and buy them back cheaper. Also I think you can change your vote or you could on the GLBSE. Apologies that came across more arsey than intended, however I was expecting to see all the options you have put on the table, there have been so many and it does get rather confusing to keep up with what is going on in here. Yes, noticed you can change it, I've decided mine gonna stick with it - long haul as you say. It's OK Evelovex I probably know you the most in this thread. So if I can take criticism from you a lot easier as you're not a stranger. I'm the largest shareholder (through buying them) so the extra shares will effect my holdings the most and I think its a very good deal at this current time. Also I do believe the majority of these 80,000 shares will be kept long term. If not they can't sell the new shares until they're providing us with value by hashing. So I don't see it crashing the market and if it goes below BTC0.010 ever again then'll start buying aggressively straight away again. These current lofty prices are putting me off personally buying anymore until we're at the potential 980(GH/s) hashing away. |
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Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.
If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".
Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s
If I wasn't in RSM for the long haul I'd have sold the shares I bought and doubled my money. Any short to medium investor would be stupid not to. If I truly believed the bubble would burst I would sell my 16,000 shares and buy them back cheaper. Also I think you can change your vote or you could on the GLBSE. |
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I definitely respect your candor.
If we can raise the final BTC20 no funds from me are needed. I'm currently the largest shareholder mainly through buying them well over 90% of my shares. So I'll feel the greatest effects from this and wont be getting any of the new shares if we can raise the final 20.00. As I only have limited coins and very limited funds in total. Edit: That is what I meant by having the biggest dog in the fight. Having a dog in the fight is an English expression meaning the matter effects me. |
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If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing. If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing. So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002. As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing. Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced. Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now. The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU. As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's. Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.
If a random shareholder sold all their shares right now for 10btc, and then messaged you and said 'hey, i'd like to pledge 10btc for the KNC units @.002/share", would they be allowed? Yes if they chose that gamble its open to anyone. Although unless we can raise enough for a third Jupiter (an extra 1.2(TH/s) to our current 180(GH/s)) then we capping fund raising at another BTC20.00 to save me investing anymore ATM. I can't see us raising another $7,500 tho at this stage. I've bought over 23% of shares off the exchanges and have the biggest dog in the fight and think its a good deal. To be able to grow while we've been waiting for pre-orders over a year ago. This new deal raises shares values to guaranteed 7(MH/s) from the current 2.8(MH/s). Do you know when our SC are gonna ship as they've been shipping day one pre-ordered SC's for a three weeks now. Also yes I do still think BFL share price is in a bubble I stopped buying at BTC0.01 and won't start buying again until it goes below that price for now. Or until we're hashing at 980(GH/s) that the new plan will guarantee up from the current 180(GH/s) only due. |
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Point is simply that if you, as manager, are saying shares in October will only be worth .002 then that means they're hugely over-valued right now. In which case you should be selling new ones down to somewhere near there as you giving out a load more at .002 is guaranteed to crash the price down to near there anyway.
Value of the shares right now is whatever the BFL pre-orders are worth divided by number of shares. Take off that whatever dividends are likely to be paid before October and that's what share should be selling at.
If there was any evidence suggesting you'd done anything to make a profit for investors then some percentage could be added to that in respect of management. But I'm pretty sure current NAV/U + dividends received is less than price paid so there's not really any reason to aply a bonus to valuation for management (as initial investors would be better off if they'd just kept their BTC in the first place). Think that's pretty true for any investment that gambled on BFL shipping on time - not just this one.
IMHO RSM share price is in a massive bubble. At the IPO issue price taking the stock split into effect the share price was BTC0.01 when BTC was below $20. Now the BTC share price is nearly double that while BTC price its self has increased almost five fold The price is based on the speculation of large dividends to be issued off the three BFL SC's which new investors at BTC0.002 won't receive. I bought over 23% of shares currently available off the market my self. So if I was just into RSM for a quick profit I'd flood the market down to a price where I've still made a profit and keep flooding the market. But I'm in RSM for the long haul and still have orders to buy more shares as my current plan is to still buy back as much as possible. Another reason for the high price of RSM shares is due to the high value our early pre-orders have. This motion is to add another early pre-order. A day one 28nm KNC pre-order. The main reason we're ordering a second for October delivery was so as not to waist any pledged funds. Even if it mean I have to add up to BTC20.00 to secure the second Jupiter. If the majority doesn't vote yes in this motion a second motion will be held on whether to just accept the 28nm day one pre-ordered Saturn and keep enough funds to upgrade it to a Jupiter. If both fail and RSM fails to expand while we're still just waiting for a pre-order after twelve months then I think all investors should look at Evelovex work on calculating the growth and dividend fund just off the BFL SC's being delivered today and not in six weeks after KNC are due to start shipping with us not having one. That price offered BTC0.002 is to represent the gamble the new investors are making and attract enough investment plus the fact they'll be getting no dividends until the KNC's are hashing. The price was at only BTC0.002 a few months ago so I feel I'm offering them not just a good deal but a fair deal. As IMHO I think RSM price bubbled when BFL started to ship then started to fall as BFL still hadn't delivered. The price started rising again on the prospectus of this new seed investment. |
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If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing. If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing. So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002. As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing. Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced. Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now. The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU. As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's. Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.
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Our current market cap is 1,171 BTC, and we're talking about OVER doubling the amount of shares to raise 200BTC?
It sounds like these investor buddies are getting half the company almost for free at the rest of our expense.
We currently only have 180(GH/s)@65nm on pre-order. This new investment is bringing 800(GH/s)@28nm. With 400(GH/s) in September and the reminding 400(GH/s) in October. For the record none of my close friends is taking part in this new investment. £1,400 investor local to me I met on the internet and only became friends through this deal. The potential BTC27 investor who is my friend is not investing as those are all the coins he's got any doesn't want to risk them. These new shares are to be distributed amongst eleven different investors so far. If you own shares they're currently worth 2.8(MH/s) each while this new investment will make them worth 7(MH/s) each. As has been stated many times recently. I'll put a motion up to run until 00:00 Wednesday GMT/UTC. Let just hope the bitcoin price doesn't tank. All pledges so far have been recorded on this spreadsheet. Please check your amount is correct before the motion is over - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdFZuMlZnRDFDUFBhaGdsSm9tWkhna2c&usp=sharing |
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Also, can you clarify how you plan on releasing the new shares, as the expansion plan comes in 2 stages- the arrival of the first KNC miner and later on the second.
Will all those who have pledged have an x percentage of shares released on the first batch, and the rest when the second one is shipped? Or will they all be realeased in one go from the shipment of the first order?
The shares for the first Jupiter will be released once it starts hashing. They will go to the investors who pledged the Saturn and the £1,400 investor. As the investor who pledged the Saturn also pledged BTC10.00. Plus maybe one or two of or part of the earliest pledgers shares if I don't need to pledge. Half of the shares which is nearly 40,000 shares will be released then. The first to have pledged are to get any remaining shares from this half. After the second Jupiter is hashing the other half of the shares will be released ( <40,000 shares) and distributed amongst the remaining new investors. We currently have BTC95.81 in the RSM wallet and currently it looks like we'll need BTC116.00 in total. I'm going to add all the new investors to the spreadsheet. Then go ahead with our Jupiter pre-order then we can get the pledged Saturn transferred to our KNC account. Then we just need to raise the final BTC16.00 to upgrade the Saturn to a Jupiter. |
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I'd just like to add my concern in that from the very start of bitcoin stock exchange trading that I've seen many investment funds come and go. The main reason being that investment funds traditionally invest in Blue Chip companies. While in bitcoin land they aren't any. What is your magic to be able to succeed where many others with the best intentions has failed AFAIK.
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Hi Matthew,
It looks good, but could you please tabulate the offers more clearly?
e.g. (please correct!)
Current assets, 68910 shares, order for 3x60GH BFL Singles
Share Offer #1, additional 20,000 shares @BTC0.02 each, KNC Saturn 200GH, pledges made and paid to cover this
Share Offer #2, additional 20,000 shares @BTC0.02 each, upgrade for above to KNC Jupiter 400GH, pledges made and paid to cover this
Share Offer #3, additional 40,000 shares @BTC0.02 each, addtional KNC Jupiter 400GH, additional BTCx needed.
And IMHO, to dot i's and cross t's, put the motion up.
Yes we're to issue shares at around ~ BTC0.002. We currently have 63,865 shares on the market and I'd like to take us up to 140,000 exactly as its a round number. So that would mean the creation of 76,135 new shares. The original price offered was ~ BTC0.002055921 but to keep at 140,000 would mean up to BTC0.0021 which is BTC0.002055921 rounded to four significant figures. But if we've to have an odd number of shares so be it. It depends on BTC price when we pay for the KNC's |
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The RSM wallet now has BTC68.56 and we've been offered another BTC30.00. We need about BTC117 to upgrade the Saturn we've been pledged to a Jupiter and also pre-order another Jupiter. This would mean creating just under 80,000 new shares to add 800(GH/s)@28nm. This would take us up to 980(GH/s) over 140,000 shares or 7(MH/s) per share. Up from 180(GH/s)@65nm and 2.8(MH/s) per share. New shares are to be created at BTC0.002 while the current thirty day traded average is BTC0.0195. We're currently only looking for another BTC20 max. I could potentially add that as a last resort if needed.
So it looks like we've settled on the expansion plan and its a good one. Are motions still needed or is everyone happy with our direction. If so I'll try and set it in place next week hopefully.
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My friend is unsure and pledges his BTC27.00 and I don't want to spend every coin I own again on RSM. As I've already bought 23% of all shares off the exchanges personally. So we have a KNC Saturn pledged and we have the ability to upgrade it to a 400(GH/s) Jupiter and keep its day one pre-order position. For this we'd need about BTC40.00 of the current BTC60.00 we already have or to create around 40,000 new shares only. That'd take us up too 580(GH/s) over ~100,000 shares. Or up to 5.8(MH/s) per share up from our current 2.8(MH/s) per share. So unless we can raise another BTC15.00 to pre order a KNC Saturn with the Jupiter upgrade some pledges may be refunded. If we could raise the BTC15.00 we'd get to 780(GH/s) or 6.5(MH/s) per share. With the option to also upgrade that Saturn to a Jupiter too if/when we can raise the funds. I could flood the market down to BTC0.01 and raise about BTC8.00 ATM and potentially add the rest personally. So that's what the two motions will be on coming up shortly.
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Has everyone who wanted to pledge received their own unique wallet address from within the RSM wallet. If not pm or email me, once all the funds are there it'll be easier to move forward. I've gave everyone their own address in case refunds are needed. The coins will stay at your given address until spent on ASIC's or in the worst case refunded.
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All right: to summarize my current understanding:  roughly: New shares created = more than double current amount New hash rate = x4 current rate New shares held without dividends until release New shares releases when new equipment comes online and hashrate increases (Oct-Nov depending on final upgrade plan) Did I miss anything? claimer: I have pledged! Current shares ~63,000 new shares ~67,000. New shares for the KNC Saturn and Jupiter could be released as early as September if they ship on time. Ordering anything from BFL seems like the worst idea ever.
The £1,600 investor doesn't want his money on KNC as they don't have chips plus we have a 25% BFL discount. I'm still getting a lot of questions of old early investors who are worried their stock is being diluted and that our growth reinvestment fund is enough. I've tried to explain we still aren't even hashing so the potential growth reinvestment fund just of their pre-ordered equipment is shrinking every day. Are all the current pledgers apart from the £1,600 investor OK with their pledges going on a KNC Jupiter. |
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BTC44.5 pledge so far with the other <£1,600 of BTC also a friend of mine may be pledging up to BTC27.00. With my pledge this may enable us to purchase up to six 50(GH/s)BFL's. With the KNCMiner Saturn this would take us to 680(GH/s) over 140,000 shares in total or up to 4.857142857(MH/s)per share up from the current 2.818445158(MH/s)per share.
The new 76,135 shares would be held by RSM until the new equipment ordered is received. As there held by RSM they'll receive no dividends until they're distributed amongst the new investors after their newly pre-ordered equipment is hashing.
Two motions will now be held; one to decide on to purchase up to six 50(GH/s)BFL's for nearly 60,000 shares or five for nearly 50,00 shares. Another motion for a KNCMiner Saturn@200(GH/s) 28nm due for September for nearly 20,000 shares. All these newly created shares will be held by RSM and receive no dividends until there new pre-ordered equipment is hashing. If a motion is needed the vote of these new shares will be decided between the £1,600 investor, the BTC27.00 investor and me if I invest the £1,620 of BTC needed to purchase the sixth BFL SC instead of only five, when I would need to only put in around £350 of BTC.
The motion on the BFL's will run for only 48 hours due to the time limit on our 25% discount voucher. The motion on the KNC will run until Friday. At least a 51% yes vote is needed for each motion to pass. Are these motions suitable to put up or do they need altering. I'd like to have both motions up by midnight tonight GMT/UTC.
This equates to nearly $20,000 of BTC or nearly BTC200 or of fresh stimulus investment after the 25% BFL discount is taken unto account. The fact the new shares wont affect dividends until they boost them significantly means this is good for all investors and I hope you all vote yes on both motions. Even if all three of our early pre-orders started hashing today it would still take the reinvestment growth fund until October to raise the amount of funds. Yet we still don't have our earliest pre-order yet. So we are at least doubling our growth by this winter. Which should put us in a lot better position in the new year where we'll hopefully be running over 1(TH/s) or >7(MH/s)per share.
Although we have enough to pre order one BFL SC 50(GH/s) (due in October) with the discount (as the £1,600 investor doesn't want his money on KNC ATM), the 200(GH/s)KNC Saturn (day one September pre-order) we've been offered and a 400(GH/s)KNC Jupiter September pre-order. For just under 70,000 new shares To take us too 830(GH/s) or 6.384615385(MH/s)per share by October. Which is an exponential jump from 180(GH/s) and 2.8(MH/s)per share. With the growth reinvestment fund we should be at least at 1(TH/s) or 7.692307692(MH/s) per share by the end of autumn. Not including any major delays and if they're delays the new shares will be ring fenced inside RSM account and not affect anything. With this plan my pledge is not needed as long as my friend puts in BTC27.00 and 10,000 less shares are created while the hashrate is 150(GH/s) higher. Plus we'd have 600(GH/s) of our 830(GH/s) on 28nm chips. Which would be a major advantage next year. 28nm chips will have a longer hashing-life and higher resell value. Edit: Sorry if this thread is getting difficult to follow but I'm currently dealing with five different private threads and putting the best resultant here. Nothing is decided yet and I'm just bouncing ideas. If anyone has any ideas or opinions to add its best they're added here in the public thread. So everyone can see clearer the direction we're heading towards putting up the motions. |
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BTC44.5 pledge so far with the other <£1,600 of BTC also a friend of mine may be pledging up to BTC27.00. With my pledge this may enable us to purchase up to six 50(GH/s)BFL's. With the KNCMiner Saturn this would take us to 680(GH/s) over 140,000 shares in total or up to 4.857142857(MH/s)per share up from the current 2.818445158(MH/s)per share.
The new 76,135 shares would be held by RSM until the new equipment ordered is received. As there held by RSM they'll receive no dividends until they're distributed amongst the new investors after their newly pre-ordered equipment is hashing.
Two motions will now be held; one to decide on to purchase up to six 50(GH/s)BFL's for nearly 60,000 shares or five for nearly 50,00 shares. Another motion for a KNCMiner Saturn@200(GH/s) 28nm due for September for nearly 20,000 shares. All these newly created shares will be held by RSM and receive no dividends until there new pre-ordered equipment is hashing. If a motion is needed the vote of these new shares will be decided between the £1,600 investor, the BTC27.00 investor and me if I invest the £1,620 of BTC needed to purchase the sixth BFL SC instead of only five, when I would need to only put in around £350 of BTC.
The motion on the BFL's will run for only 48 hours due to the time limit on our 25% discount voucher. The motion on the KNC will run until Friday. At least a 51% yes vote is needed for each motion to pass. Are these motions suitable to put up or do they need altering. I'd like to have both motions up by midnight tonight GMT/UTC.
This equates to nearly $20,000 of BTC or nearly BTC200 or of fresh stimulus investment after the 25% BFL discount is taken unto account. The fact the new shares wont affect dividends until they boost them significantly means this is good for all investors and I hope you all vote yes on both motions. Even if all three of our early pre-orders started hashing today it would still take the reinvestment growth fund until October to raise the amount of funds. Yet we still don't have our earliest pre-order yet. So we are at least doubling our growth by this winter. Which should put us in a lot better position in the new year where we'll hopefully be running over 1(TH/s) or >7(MH/s)per share.
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Further funding and hence the new share deal, seems almost essential at this point, if we are to grow and not stagnate for the next 4-5 months. It would therefore be wise not to be too scare off the new investors. However, as they would be getting the shares at a decent discount, I see no harm in having some sort of lock-in period perhaps when RSM passes a designated GH level they are released? In the mean time these locked share dividends are used for re-investment, by either purchasing shares back off the market or just straight into the growth fund.
Disclosure. I own shares here already and am pledged as a new investor.
That just leaves the question on whether to go with 600(GH/s) of 28nm chips promised for September. Or only 200(GH/s) of 28nm chips with 250(GH/s) of 65nm chips promised for October. The second idea is the safest but the first has by far the potential to be the most rewarding. You have to speculate to accumulate but if KNCMiner implodes RSM implodes  KNCMiner are working with a very good/big chip manufacturer tho. So I don't personally think they'll hit BFL level delays but there's always the chance they could still implode and take us down basically with it! BTW I'd prefer the new shares dividends to go straight into the growth fund until they're released to the new investors. |
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A few concerns, I'm not sure why we are planning on diluting the shares to buy what is actually going to be old hardware by the time BFL ship. Would it not make better sense to either A) put that investment towards another KNC for example or B) just save the money we make in the first 1-3 months of mining (growth fund - see sheet) to put towards more hardware, im not sure diluting the shares is the way to go, but then again, I'm not 100% I understand everything fully  . Why would it be better to dilute the shares in that way to attract new investment rather than "wait" and use the growth fund to buy the new hardware? "To make the motion sweeter for old investors I may put to the motion. That the new 30,000-40,000 new shares will be held in a holding account until the new ASIC's their paying for are hashing. With all the dividends received from the 30,000-40,000 new shares while there held be used to buy more shares off the market until all the new shares are distributed. This should help stop any mass dumping of shares until we have got a lot of hashrate behind us and help stimulate share prices as well for all investors." - I think I like this idea however. We do have a KNCMiner Saturn unit as part of the plan. Tho I'm worried they may run into BFL level delays. The five SC's we're going to purchase have a 25% discount. BFL are currently shipping the densest chips and we'll always buy the densest chips shipping as long as its cost effect. We could use the money from the five BFL SC order to pre-order a 400(GH/s) KNCMiner instead. Taking us to 780(GH/s) instead with 600(GH/s) of that at 28nm. Hence hedging our bets if BFL still can implode. As KNCMiner are still only promising September shipping and have no chips yet. While the new BFL SC's wont be due until October. But we've been burnt badly with pre-order delays and BFL have a shipping device and actual chips. If they was to still implode I'm sure a take-over bankruptcy deal of there order book would be done at this stage. Also what about if RSM holds the 60,000 new shares. So that RSM receives the dividends from them which are paid into the growth reinvestment fund. More ideas and opinions welcome. Edit: My heart wants to go fully KNC as there promising to ship first but mostly because there 28nm. That'd be a major advantage as long as they don't run into twelve month plus of delays. Tho my head says BFL as they have the chips and devices shipping. Even if there October promise is later than KNCMiners September promise. Very tricky decision and I still don't know how I'd vote |
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Concerns ?
yes a few but not serious, more towards the general policies here. Is dilution of shares to raise capitol the way you intend to grow? or is this essentially a one off event.
Obviously for a 90% reinvestment business model we need to have some serious fire power to begin with or we will never be able to grow but with little dividend initially to be expected in this model, dilution seems counter-productive.
Chicken and egg situation.
perhaps, as this is essentially a significant restructure now would be a good time for for a couple of new motions to and a little revamp of the contract on BTC-TC ?
obviously that's only one opinion, it would be nice to hear what others think.
This is pretty much a one off event but if we can ever raise serious capital to invest. As long as the (MH/s)per share grows its in original investors interests. |
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