How did you fill the claim form out? Did you put all "exacts" or "approx."? I filled out "approx" because I had no idea if I had like .005 BTC added on to any of my transactions and BTC total's in my account. I just couldn't fill out "exact" b/c I didn't want to be off by any amount.
I used "approx." as interest was accruing daily on both my USD and BTC deposits, so I had no way of knowing the "exact" value. However all the significant digits on the left of the decimal point were exact and I provided references and transfer codes to back them up. |
|
|
|
For the sake of transparency - This morning I received a verification confirmation over email: Your claim has been reviewed and deemed accurate but payments cannot begin until we've gone through more of them to get a big picture. Has anyone else received similar confirmations? |
|
|
|
Since I understand that the Intersango/Bitcoin consultancy team member are not reading the bitcoinica payout thread anymore, I have decided to cross-post this here as I do think the community deserves an answer on this issue. I'm sorry if it is off-topic. Neither Intersango nor Bitcoin Consultancy is involved in bitcoinica.
Some of the Intersango/Bitcoin Consultancy team members are, however posting about that in this thread is wildly inappropriate.
That is funny because Donald Norman, the CEO of Intersango/Bitcoin Consultancy claimed the following on 2012/04/24: http://bitcoinmedia.com/first-licensed-advanced-trading-platform-for-bitcoin/This platform announced today, a new contract signed with the Bitcoin Consultancy Ltd. Bitcoin Consultancy will be taking a dominant role in the operations of Bitcoinica, ushering forward its continued safety and stable operation. Tihan also claims otherwise: Bitcoin Consultancy was first retained to perform a comprehensive security audit on March 27 and they became owners and operators of Bitcoinica LP on April 24*. As General Partner, they have exclusive legal authority to manage the company. And Zhou: https://www.bitcoinica.com/posts/joining-forces-with-bitcoin-consultancyThe Bitcoin Consultancy team will be responsible for the daily operations of Bitcoinica, including customer support, compliance and new features. We have some amazing improvements in the works that we know our customers will love. I'm starting to suspect some serious corporate switcharoo here. So around April 21 there were the following entries in the NZ register: - "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED"
- "CORE CREDIT LIMITED" (30/01/2012)
- "BITCOINICA LP" (FSP) (22/03/2012)
However on May 30 the following happened: - "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED" > registration withdrawn.
 - "CORE CREDIT LIMITED" > namechange > "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED"
So correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that: - Intersango guys were the original BITCOIN CONSULTANCY LIMITED (General Partner)
- Tihans investment fund was CORE CREDIT LIMITED. (Majority Limited Partner)
- On May 30 the LIMITED PARTNER changed name to that of the GENERAL PARTNER.
This would also explain genjix statement: Tihan denies being in charge, which means his parent company (Core Credit) has to authorise the payments. However Tihan is saying we don't need that. - Who took over from Zhou as acting CEO or managing director of Bitcoinica LP on April 24?
- Who is the acting CEO or managing director of Bitcoinica LP since May 30?
- Who is currently the general partner & who are the limited partner(s)?
- What is the reason for these corporate changes as such a late stage?
Thank you. |
|
|
|
Neither Intersango nor Bitcoin Consultancy is involved in bitcoinica.
Some of the Intersango/Bitcoin Consultancy team members are, however posting about that in this thread is wildly inappropriate.
That is funny because Donald Norman, the CEO of Intersango/Bitcoin Consultancy claimed the following on 2012/04/24: http://bitcoinmedia.com/first-licensed-advanced-trading-platform-for-bitcoin/This platform announced today, a new contract signed with the Bitcoin Consultancy Ltd. Bitcoin Consultancy will be taking a dominant role in the operations of Bitcoinica, ushering forward its continued safety and stable operation. Tihan also claims otherwise: Bitcoin Consultancy was first retained to perform a comprehensive security audit on March 27 and they became owners and operators of Bitcoinica LP on April 24*. As General Partner, they have exclusive legal authority to manage the company. And Zhou: https://www.bitcoinica.com/posts/joining-forces-with-bitcoin-consultancyThe Bitcoin Consultancy team will be responsible for the daily operations of Bitcoinica, including customer support, compliance and new features. We have some amazing improvements in the works that we know our customers will love. I'm starting to suspect some serious corporate switcharoo here. So around April 21 there were the following entries in the NZ register: - "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED"
- "CORE CREDIT LIMITED" (30/01/2012)
- "BITCOINICA LP" (FSP) (22/03/2012)
However on May 30 the following happened: - "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED" > registration withdrawn.
- "CORE CREDIT LIMITED" > namechange > "BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED"
So correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that: - Intersango guys were the original BITCOIN CONSULTANCY LIMITED (General Partner)
- Tihans investment fund was CORE CREDIT LIMITED. (Majority Limited Partner)
- On May 30 the LIMITED PARTNER changed name (but not liability?) to that of the GENERAL PARTNER and the GENERAL PARTNER dissolved itself.
This would also explain genjix statement: Tihan denies being in charge, which means his parent company (Core Credit) has to authorise the payments. However Tihan is saying we don't need that. Color me confused. What is going on and how does this benefit customers? |
|
|
|
Did Bitcoinica join a DRS (dispute resolution scheme) when it became a FSP in NZ? If so, which one and what is your internal procedure to deal with complaints? http://www.business.govt.nz/fsp/about-the-fspr/dispute-resolution-schemesMost financial service providers (FSPs) who provide a service to retail clients must belong to an approved dispute resolution scheme (DRS) or the government-established reserve (dispute resolution) scheme, under section 48 of the Financial Service Providers (Registration and Dispute Resolution) Act 2008 (FSPA).
FSPs must join a dispute resolution scheme before beginning their application for registration as a financial service provider.
Membership in a DRS is mandatory for FSPs who provide a service to retail clients, because it provides consumers with an avenue for redress when a dispute arises with their financial service provider. Membership in a scheme is a pre-requisite for registration as an FSP.
Customers (individuals, or small organisations with 19 or less full time equivalent employees - FTEs) of a financial service provider can access the dispute resolution scheme the FSP belongs to, free of charge. However, the complainant must take their complaint to the FSP first. FSPs need to have some internal procedures to deal with complaints.
All dispute resolution schemes will have rules about the complaints process, what the FSP has to do, and what complaints they cover. |
|
|
|
Zhou is assisting on the claims process he remembers information about some of the accounts which we simply do not I'll take that as a NO - Zhou is not a Bitcoinica employee, but rather a volunteer (or unpaid contractor). No donald is not CEO of bitcoinica consultancy. OK, so who took over as Bitcoinica CEO or MD when Zhou was relieved from that position on April 24 and Bitcoin Consultancy was brought in to take a dominant role in daily operations? If anybody decides to file a criminal complaint you will effectively guarantee that it will be months or even years before anybody sees their funds. Point taken, Although I don't care about WHEN, I care about IF. I'm still trying to figure out the best course of action. I don't want to feed the lawyers, nor destroy peoples reputation. But I also don't like to be taken for a ride. So far there has been a lot of talk but very little action. Until something meaningful happens or a concrete action plan complete with dates is provided I will certainly consider joining legal action. (note: I am not talking about a criminal complaint) |
|
|
|
Thanks Patrick for answering some of my earlier questions. There are 2 questions you skipped over though: - Is Zhou currently a Bitcoinica employee? Y/N
- Is Donald Norman the CEO of Bitcoinica Consultancy? Y/N
There was supposed to be additional fields added to a new claims form so users could provide more information I think those were new fields for their internal claims database for metadata such as %verified, payment status etc. I could be wrong. |
|
|
|
If you trust me personally, I can confirm that at the time of this post, at least 75% of total claimed value (even including the identified fake ones) is present in Bitcoinica's accounts. Zhou, although I trust you personally (and appreciate the support you continue to provide to the best of your abilities) it is beside the point since it is unclear if you are even an official Bitcoinica representative or employee at this point. What I am afraid of is that Bitcoinica will use customer deposits to cover legal expenses. There have been too many mistakes made by too many people and too many questions left unanswered. My goodwill towards Bitcoinica has pretty much reached rock bottom. So unless they will guarantee not to use customer deposits for anything other than customer refunds, I'd rather deal with a trusted 3rd party escrow agent. |
|
|
|
|
If direct refunds are still not an option, can you guys at least send the customer deposits into escrow until this mess is sorted out?
|
|
|
|
From www.bitcoinica.com: The thief stole from us not you. All withdrawal requests will be honored. So, how is that coming along? 3 June 23:20: We're adding extra fields to the claims database (should be finished soon), we have received the funds from Tihan to make the initial payouts. Then once that's done, the first round of payments can be finished. Seems to me there should be nothing holding you back: - June 3: funds received.
- June 5: database done.
- June 7: authorization done.
Or is there anything else that Bitcoinica customers need to be aware of? If so please clarify. Hopefully someone acting on proper legal representation can respond. Yeah, Hopefully... Who is Bitcoinica's legal representation anyway? Other questions: - Is Zhou an Bitcoinica LP employee or not? Since the has access to claims, funds, AML and financial records he'd better be.
- Where is Donald in all of this? I assume he is acting CEO.
- Why is Bitcoinica not responding to user inquiries over email?
- Why was help.bitcoinica.com taken down? (as it was separate from the app)
- Why are updates not posted on the Bitcoinica website?
- When will the claims process close?
- How is Bitcoinica dealing with open positions?
- Why the secrecy?
|
|
|
|
I can only provide some highly redacted screenshots. The gist is, there's no point to cheat for claims. Bitcoinica has almost everything.
You stated yesterday that there are 3 accounting records. Also we know they are incomplete and outdated. From what I see: * One of the records provides postions up to 6/05/12 (recent) * The other record shows USD and BTC balances but there are only a few 2012 records in the screenshot suggesting this document might only cover a period up to Jan/Feb. (outdated) * The 3rd record is unknown. So the big questions is: Which accounting records do you have and up to which date are these records current? I am concerned that there might be major blindspots in the data. For example I only committed significant funds to Bitcoinica after April 24 when it became a licensed financial service provider and provided a ToS. Also I came for the interest on deposits, so did not have any positions. I'm sure I am not unique in this respect. The data from the screenshots suggest that accurate information for late users with significant deposits but no positions might not be present in either of the documents you presented. This worries me. |
|
|
|
Now the thing is that for payments to be processed, we need legal authorisation from the person in charge. Tihan denies being in charge, which means his parent company (Core Credit) has to authorise the payments. However Tihan is saying we don't need that. I might be mistaken but from what I understand Tihan is correct. Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd is the general partner and has the exclusive legal authority to manage the company. And since BITCOINICA CONSULTANCY LIMITED and CORE CREDIT LIMITED are one and the same company with the same company ID (3715077) that means YOU are in charge (or perhaps more specifically Donald Norman as CEO of the Bitcoin consultancy assuming you use the same management structure for both). So no need to ask Core Credit for permission as that would be the same as asking yourself for permission. No wonder things move so slowly.  |
|
|
|
Created a little doc that tries (to the best of my understanding) to combine the bits and pieces of info from Bitcoinica into a more coherent doc covering the who/what/when aspects. I created it mainly for myself to get a better picture of the situation, but I figured others might find it useful so sharing here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1007482/BitcoinicaOverview.pdfNote: If anything is incorrect please let me know and I will update  |
|
|
|
3 June 23:20: We're adding extra fields to the claims database (should be finished soon) Would it be safe to assume this is pretty much done by now? we have received the funds from Tihan to make the initial payouts. Then once that's done, the first round of payments can be finished. Good. * How many customers are included in the 1st round? * What percentage of total deposits will be returned in the first round? * How many rounds do you expect there to be? * How much will be payed out per claim (e.g. 80% of BTC & USD)? * How will it be payed out? (e.g. MtGox, Wire?) * How and when will customers be notified? Looking forward to finally seeing this resolved! |
|
|
|
And if not, I will join the legal process as you mentioned above
So will I. We need to draw a line in the sand somewhere and 30 days without access to funds is where I draw it (2012/06/11). After that the time for passively sitting around and waiting is officially over as far as I am concerned. |
|
|
|
02 June 2012 21:26: The process is at an impasse because of some legal wrangling.
Great. How does this affect the refund process? Will depositors get their money back or will Bitcoinica be tapping into these deposits to cover legal expenses? |
|
|
|
|
Oh boy, how I enjoy waiting! It is just so much fun to visit this thread every single day for little scraps of info to feed my slowly dwindling hope of ever seeing my deposits back. I just love wasting my money *and* my time. Thanks Bitcoinica! You sure know how to treat your customers right.
Translation: I am not amused. It has been 22 days since the hack. Nobody has seen a (bit)cent back AFAIK. You are sitting on ~$1 million of user deposits. An update would be in order.
Oh, and please don't use weasel words like 'soon'. Give us a date. When do the refunds start? When do the refunds end? Clear & Simple. Let's get this over with already.
|
|
|
|
No need to wake up sleeping dogs who'd otherwise forgot about their coins on the site or wouldn't know about an option to make a claim.
What you are describing here is theft. I don't think that is a good strategy. |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
