IF and this is a huge IF we get that timeline you said.....we would be fortunate to get what we paid for. Hopefully AMT is doing something to make it up to us. But at this point its not looking likely. We don't know the terms yet for these options. They did say their lawyers were vetting or prepping the info and getting us something today so I am looking forward to that and hoping for a result.
I do wonder if their lawyers have seen the MPP and understand the obligations of AMT to its customers. It is more than delivering miners that meet specifications, it requires proving an ROI based on the promised shipping days. The only realistic ROI is to refund the money paid. The MPP is vague in terms. But valid for everyone. It might be why they locked down sales....after they fulfill our orders and make good on the MPP as well, they legally will have fulfilled all their obligations to us and could remove the MPP altogether. The class action however would need to have covered that. (whether or not we registered with it it still applies to us might be something to read). The class action complaint did not cover the MPP. So (IMO as I'm not a lawyer) we are at AMT's mercy on that point. If they give us something extra as a thank you for sticking it out...I would personally consider that as fulfillment of the MPP in spirit if not letter. I don't think I am wrong in saying we all just want to move on past this and just get working hardware ASAP. But having something extra at least helps restore some credibility as it is something they advertised. How is it that AMT is dictating the terms that customer presumably accept? Should we as customers not have a say as to what is acceptable considering the delays? At this time, considering that competitors are selling 1 THs systems for $3,000, it would be only fair that people are compensated with systems that total at least 2 THs. A tehnobit unit of 240 GHs ( http://technobit.eu/index.php?id_product=63&controller=product&id_lang=1 ) costs around $700. Five of them that hits 1.2 THs would cost $3,500. There is still a $2,500 discrepancy here. Also note that the technobit price does not include power supplies. |
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Also likely the thermal grease on the other side was not very well applied either. Again real cut rate work to keep costs down. This is usually how some houses operate, AMT already made that much clear in this situation. But in either case we are paying the price. Seeing as they are now providing us with options...lets hope these options dont take us months of waiting again. I dont think I want to deal with that hassle. I still have the question....What is the timeline for the technobit solution?
The timeline would be around 2 weeks if you can get your A1 chips to Technobit.eu to have it assembled by them. I've got zero confidence that AMT has the personnel to actually deliver anything on schedule. Let's just list the 'little' things they forgot to do: (1) Forgot to put adequate padding on the shipment. (2) Forgot to include a backplane. (3) Forgot to ship a missing backplane. (4) Forgot to include basic instructions to wire up the system. (5) Forgot to accept a returned package (3) times. That's just the logistics part of shipping a supposedly working unit. How about the assembly part. (1) Forgot to test the system prior to shipping. (2) Forgot to apply thermal paste properly. (3) Used the smallest possible heatshink (4) Forgot to align the boards so that the backplane could fit. (5) Never figured out how to provide enough power for 1.2 THs boards. BTW... where is that backplane that was supposed to power 6 boards... I guess it never existed.. in short AMT never had a chance of delivering a 1.2 THs system. To conclude, despite the best efforts of AMT to come up with something... a 1.2 TH/S that was advertised never existed! No proof of a working system. No proof of a 6 board system. Same thing happened to me for 2 rigs, he gave me with: 1. Missing parts 2. Both rigs dead 3.no powersupply 4. he put a scotch tape on a heat LCD panel on the back to hold it on place,... which is ghetto. 5. He never test them. 6. Boards have X on them mean they have failed testing and he still gave me. He stole the money bro from us..But soon he is going to spend those money after they (Josh and Jim) gets out of 20 years of prison for fraud! Do you have photographs? Keep the evidence. The fact they were so negligent previously doesn't give me much confidence even if they finally licensed a working design. |
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Come on people... It was a bad idea to send so much money without knowing exactly what it was.
Most people where sending Bitcoins because they've been impressed by the cash flow.
You're lucky that it didn't end like a quick scam as we've seen so many recently.
Even in the case of a legit project, you should not send money before being 100% sure of what you are doing (I'm not talking about you FrictionlessCoin but about most investors here).
By sending money to a non-finished project, you are encouraging this kind of IPO that can be easily turned to scams.
Anyway it was a bad idea for most of you. Right now I can buy much cheaper and much safely. I just had to wait few days. Can't you wait few days people ?
I watched David Irvine's presentation and I did read the Maidsafe papers, so I was pretty impressed as to what they were creating. Now, predicting if an IPO price is priced right is a difficult task. Right now, the price is trading below the IPO for BTC buyers and above the IPO price for MSC buyers. Essentially, it is trading actually above the average purchase price of all buyers. So it is not as much as a disaster a people claim it to be. |
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IF and this is a huge IF we get that timeline you said.....we would be fortunate to get what we paid for. Hopefully AMT is doing something to make it up to us. But at this point its not looking likely. We don't know the terms yet for these options. They did say their lawyers were vetting or prepping the info and getting us something today so I am looking forward to that and hoping for a result.
I do wonder if their lawyers have seen the MPP and understand the obligations of AMT to its customers. It is more than delivering miners that meet specifications, it requires proving an ROI based on the promised shipping days. The only realistic ROI is to refund the money paid. Anywhere here is AMT's technobit board just in case you missed it:  |
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Oh man.. not looking good!
AMT entrusted to do the production and assembly! I would have preferred that they ship units directly from technobit. The delay to ship from Europe would likely less than the delays that AMT is known for.
BTW, how many boards will be needed to reach 1.2 THs?
That is not necessarily true (e.g, it could be great news, depending). A company like Flexitron could probably do 1000 or many times that boards in a day without breaking a sweat. Probably much faster, with better QA and at lower cost, than even a high quality specialized vendor could do. The problem is in setting up the assembly line, and lead times. So the questions to ask are: (1) Is the techno bits licensed design fully developed, tested, and ready to go, or will a testing phase be needed? IS the PCB design already in layout ready to be printed? (2) Who is doing the PCB board manufacture and soldering? Do they have all parts in hand or will there be a lead time and if so what is that? (3) When will assembly start and how many boards can be finished and tested per day? (4) What are specs on the techno bit boards? Are they a design that is already being sold or a new AMT only design? (5) Are there any post-board assembly tasks that will not be performed by the assembler? E.g., will the hashing chips need to be mounted separately, or will AMT ship those out to be mounted too? and how long before assembler has all parts in hadn and can start therefore? (6) Has contract been signed with assembly shop or is it still under negotiation? Are there hard and fast dates and volumes in the contract or is it a reasonable efforts type contract? What he said....+1 Overall questions though is timeline. We need to know this is going to be ready in a very fashion and if not what compensation is going to be offered for our trouble. But from Marto's post it looks like they are just using his reference design and assembling the hardware. Like you said might not be a bad thing if they don't deviate from the design and just get us working hardware ASAP. With the questions above answered and a realistic timeline on delivery we can at least weigh our options better. AMT should have asked Technobit to ship to their severly delayed customers! How many more months do we have to wait for AMT to get their act together. Best case estimate right now is that they ship in 3 weeks. In 3 weeks time, you can get a 1 THs miner for $1,500. Is AMT going to send us 5 x 4 = 20 of these Technobit boards?? |
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HI,all,
Actually AMT purchase a non-exclusive licence from us about 2 weeks ago.
They did business with us in the past, so having troubles with their current design/manufacturing process , they decided to get an alternate design.
In any case all their boards will be produced in USA as far as I know.
We will not be involved in the production and assembly except with know-how help if needed from distance.
Best Martin
Did they also license the Scrypt based design? |
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HI,all,
Actually AMT purchase a non-exclusive licence from us about 2 weeks ago.
They did business with us in the past, so having troubles with their current design/manufacturing process , they decided to get an alternate design.
In any case all their boards will be produced in USA as far as I know.
We will not be involved in the production and assembly except with know-how help if needed from distance.
Best Martin
Oh man.. not looking good! AMT entrusted to do the production and assembly! I would have preferred that they ship units directly from technobit. The delay to ship from Europe would likely less than the delays that AMT is known for. AMT decided to do this only 2 weeks ago? What the hell were they doing while our systems were known to be not working? Now they take again the long route by saying that they'll assemble it themselves! BTW, how many boards will be needed to reach 1.2 THs? |
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At least would stay on but needs at least 3x dissipation area than that support chip sink has. In free air I'd start with a guess of 5 sq. inches of surface PER-CHIP. 5 square inches? The problem is that there are capacitors in the way of the chip, so you can't mount a big one. Here is photo:  See the four orange capacitors that's in the way of mounting a sufficiently large heat sink? Anyway around this? |
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anyone have an idea of an alternative heat sink that can be attached to the AMT board?
If you mean top side, just follow BMch's example and use a long one. Just be sure to find a way to bolt it down so it doesn't fall off. Can anyone point to one that will work? I guess a this time it is not advisable to run AMT design without having a sufficiently large heat sink to transfer the heat. |
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Clearly the design not tested or calculated, thermal tape is used so you can put the tape on the chips instead of applying the silicon on from a tube. (you see it on boxed Intel processors) It is not meant to glue things on a circuit board. There should be a thin metal bar holding down the heat sink. Not only didn't it work standing still, you have to account for things moving around as well. Fail, fail, fail...
I'm not too familiar with the characteristics of thermal tape, however I do know for thermal paste, a lot of them start flowing when heated up. So if thermal tape is like this, then these chips would just fall off when given enough heat. |
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Also likely the thermal grease on the other side was not very well applied either. Again real cut rate work to keep costs down. This is usually how some houses operate, AMT already made that much clear in this situation. But in either case we are paying the price. Seeing as they are now providing us with options...lets hope these options dont take us months of waiting again. I dont think I want to deal with that hassle. I still have the question....What is the timeline for the technobit solution?
The timeline would be around 2 weeks if you can get your A1 chips to Technobit.eu to have it assembled by them. I've got zero confidence that AMT has the personnel to actually deliver anything on schedule. Let's just list the 'little' things they forgot to do: (1) Forgot to put adequate padding on the shipment. (2) Forgot to include a backplane. (3) Forgot to ship a missing backplane. (4) Forgot to include basic instructions to wire up the system. (5) Forgot to accept a returned package (3) times. That's just the logistics part of shipping a supposedly working unit. How about the assembly part. (1) Forgot to test the system prior to shipping. (2) Forgot to apply thermal paste properly. (3) Used the smallest possible heatshink (4) Forgot to align the boards so that the backplane could fit. (5) Never figured out how to provide enough power for 1.2 THs boards. BTW... where is that backplane that was supposed to power 6 boards... I guess it never existed.. in short AMT never had a chance of delivering a 1.2 THs system. To conclude, despite the best efforts of AMT to come up with something... a 1.2 TH/S that was advertised never existed! No proof of a working system. No proof of a 6 board system. Sorry for disagreeing, but the 1.2TH/s does exist and AMT shipped out hundreds of them. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg5962169#msg5962169We've shipped up to the 1200's - a few hundred thus far, earlier batches when clients agreed to take the risk and receive their miner despite heat/pcb problems. Since I just proved that one of your statements was in error, the rest of your post must be fud. There's no evidence that this is even true. The 5 board miners that have been shipped are capable only of 1 THs. This is the same number of chips as the equivalent Bitmine system that is rates at 1 THs. There is no evidence of a 1.2 THs system that can accomodate 6 boards. In fact, there isn't even any evidence of a backplane that can accomodate 6 boards. So what did exactly did AMT sell to its customer when said product doesn't even exist? |
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use something like this for a heat sink...  How is the heat sink attached to the chip? There are some spring loaded screws that keeps the pressure constant. You can just put some sticky thermal tape on this. I've had CPUs fail simply because the thermal paste was not properly applied. Now imagine this AMT system that has to run at non-nominal speeds for 24 x 7 x 365. Man.... we are so screwed!!! Umm you do know you are looking at a motherboard with a heatsink resting on the CPU slot right? And its not even screwed in...its resting there. Its not a fully assembled board.....this is a PC not a miner....not sure if you are aware of that based on what you just said. I can't tell if its screwed or not, but the sheer weight of the thing should provide enough pressure between the heatsink and the chip. Yes, of course it is a PC. You think a miner requires a lesser quality heat sink? Look at the GPUs out there, those are also serious quality heat sinks. Look at the design of Cointerra, they got liquid cooled heat sinks. So what is it about a Coincraft A1 chip that it requires a lesser quality heat sink? You can't cheat physics here. CPUs and GPUs all are at 28nm and have speeds that are similar to this miner. All that electrons flowing at that speed creates the heat. All that computation creates the heat. It's screwed in, also I have it in a military style 10 PCI case + 4 GPUs which has the heatsink going sideways. The mounting is weird, but I believe screws may be coming from the bottom of the board. This heat sink is crazy high, and would never fit in a regular case. This is one of my smaller PCs used for QA and testing  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103106A better coincraft A1 design is to have all the A1 chips bunched together so that you can share some some kick-ass heat sink. GPU users go to great lengths to remove the stock heatsink and replace it with something more effective. The technobit and dragon boards both have the A1 chips clustered close together. All this discussion is moot now since AMT is like 2 months delayed and the competition is delivery goods that AMT can't match in price. |
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anyone have an idea of an alternative heat sink that can be attached to the AMT board?
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use something like this for a heat sink... How is the heat sink attached to the chip? There are some spring loaded screws that keeps the pressure constant. You can just put some sticky thermal tape on this. I've had CPUs fail simply because the thermal paste was not properly applied. Now imagine this AMT system that has to run at non-nominal speeds for 24 x 7 x 365. Man.... we are so screwed!!! Umm you do know you are looking at a motherboard with a heatsink resting on the CPU slot right? And its not even screwed in...its resting there. Its not a fully assembled board.....this is a PC not a miner....not sure if you are aware of that based on what you just said. I can't tell if its screwed or not, but the sheer weight of the thing should provide enough pressure between the heatsink and the chip. Yes, of course it is a PC. You think a miner requires a lesser quality heat sink? Look at the GPUs out there, those are also serious quality heat sinks. Look at the design of Cointerra, they got liquid cooled heat sinks. So what is it about a Coincraft A1 chip that it requires a lesser quality heat sink? You can't cheat physics here. CPUs and GPUs all are at 28nm and have speeds that are similar to this miner. All that electrons flowing at that speed creates the heat. All that computation creates the heat. |
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And I really want to know who they got making option one and if it's the same design as this one.
And for three I'd really like to know, how much control I'd have over my set up. And obviously the all important price for electricity.
I thought they were just shipping out surplus on the old design for option 1? For my part I would not want that old design. The technobit seems to be more stable and is working from what people are indicating on their board. Nobody should want the *old design*. Nobody has shown it to work reliably. If you want to risk burning down your home, then maybe. |
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use something like this for a heat sink... How is the heat sink attached to the chip? There are some spring loaded screws that keeps the pressure constant. You can just put some sticky thermal tape on this. I've had CPUs fail simply because the thermal paste was not properly applied. Now imagine this AMT system that has to run at non-nominal speeds for 24 x 7 x 365. Man.... we are so screwed!!! |
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Also likely the thermal grease on the other side was not very well applied either. Again real cut rate work to keep costs down. This is usually how some houses operate, AMT already made that much clear in this situation. But in either case we are paying the price. Seeing as they are now providing us with options...lets hope these options dont take us months of waiting again. I dont think I want to deal with that hassle. I still have the question....What is the timeline for the technobit solution?
The timeline would be around 2 weeks if you can get your A1 chips to Technobit.eu to have it assembled by them. I've got zero confidence that AMT has the personnel to actually deliver anything on schedule. Let's just list the 'little' things they forgot to do: (1) Forgot to put adequate padding on the shipment. (2) Forgot to include a backplane. (3) Forgot to ship a missing backplane. (4) Forgot to include basic instructions to wire up the system. (5) Forgot to accept a returned package (3) times. That's just the logistics part of shipping a supposedly working unit. How about the assembly part. (1) Forgot to test the system prior to shipping. (2) Forgot to apply thermal paste properly. (3) Used the smallest possible heatshink (4) Forgot to align the boards so that the backplane could fit. (5) Never figured out how to provide enough power for 1.2 THs boards. BTW... where is that backplane that was supposed to power 6 boards... I guess it never existed.. in short AMT never had a chance of delivering a 1.2 THs system. To conclude, despite the best efforts of AMT to come up with something... a 1.2 TH/S that was advertised never existed! No proof of a working system. No proof of a 6 board system. |
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To Clarify. I am not rich, YET. I'm probably one of the poorer ix owners And never meant that I was going to fund the whole last 20k. In fact I didn't even know if the 20k bounty was Ix or dollars (which is it?). But as I stated before, I will pitch in, (donate) to this fund. How much?( i have no idea; how much is ix gonna go up?). But I'm sure others will join in to get friction or who ever the bounty. So yeah lets fucking make it happen.
Hey Thomas, what you got laying around? Don't hold out on me brother. lol
I guess my point was to bring more attention to these updates and get the conversation focused on iXcounterparty.
From a newbie point of view, in order to use counterparty features, would you rather obtain bitcoin, then use the bitcoin to obtain xcp in order to use the features, (which means that now you have to learn 2 systems)
or
would you rather obtain ix that you don't have to convert in order to use the features. (This is fucking huge, less education for the masses to use these features)
And if we wanted to put a cherry on top, make the decentralized marketplace with the decentralized escrow the first feature avail not the last.
Quotes are all in IXC. Yeah, that's why this is so *fucking* cool! You get all these 2nd generation features, but you use the same coin. No weird stuff like having to flip between counterparty coins and bitcoins. You get all this on a platform that is secured by like 20 petahashes! |
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If we are playing show and tell How did this happen? I thought the heat sink on the other side was big enough to absorb all the heat? The miner was running fine for hours just doing it's thing. I went to bed and when I woke up it it looked like that with the copper sink hanging on for dear life off the bottom of the tape. I bought some extra fans , has one blowing cool air in and and another exhausting the hot air out. So I ran to my computer and check the putty log and it was just popping up with an error over and over. SoI killed it and switched off the device and haven't mined since,even with the now one good card I have. I'm not looking for a fire, but at least I have renters insurance if it went up. Hell probably would have had my money back from the mier now if it would have gone up. The thermal tape was just inadequate for the job. Nevertheless, it is interesting that the heat sink on the otherside could not absorb the heat. So even if option #1 was working, it would still be a fire hazzard. |
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Probably the thermal tape was poorly applied, creating an air pocket that led to that. Usually the case from what I have seen. Considering the assembly quality in general and overall leakage of the thermal grease this is not a shock. It looked like a rushed job.
This is indeed problematic for a couple of reasons: (1) There is no screw that ensures that the heat sink has some pressure against the chip. (2) The orientation of the boards are such that the boards are vertical and therefore gravity isn't even going to work to keep the heat sinks in place. Also, I've been saying for a while now. These heatsinks are too small. Look at the designs of both Technobit and Dragon. They've got massive heat sinks on the chip side and it's okay even if the chips are all bunched together. Even the AMT system has a much larger heat sink than what we see here at AMT. I can't understand the design. These are 28nm chips running on full throttle, AMT however decides to put the smallest heat sink one can imagine! |
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