Russian Finance Minister:
Mr. Putin, the Americans have a cryptocurrency expert advising the White House.
Vladimir Putin:
Is this significant?
Russian Finance Minister:
I'm not sure. The Ministry's initial research suggested this new currency "bitcoin" was a passing fad--just a harmless toy. We're no longer convinced that's the case.
Vladimir Putin:
We need to learn more about this "bitcoin" and what might be the plans of the Americans...
Peter R, seriously don't you see that Putin vs. Obama is a scripted show for the masses to drool over. The global elite are pulling the strings, the same as they did with the Bolsheviks and then handing power to the oligarchs after the fall of the Communism they created. Some homework for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sah_Xni-gtghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ac7ap_MAYThe elite in every country are aligned with the current move towards a global Technocracy. Being ignorant (Cypherdoc) of these facts doesn't impress me. Not any more than I would be impressed that someone doesn't know all the facts surrounding 9/11 such as the letter from the SEC to Martin Armstrong confirming that all the tapes he had recorded of the malfeasance of the banksters had been held of the WTC and destroyed. Climb down the rabbit hole and study the facts, not the diversionary bullshit about UFOs, etc.. |
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you're a whack job.
I hope those readers who lamented that I (even if occasionally) exhibit technical acumen but lack couth, will now understand that rather I am an astute judge of personality and attitude. Is a character assassination all you have as a retort? Any meritorious points? |
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inca, I readily agreed with tvbcof's point because I recalled I had made the same point roughly about the time I started the thread Bitcoin adoption slowing; Coinbase... If I remember correctly, my point was essentially that the Reed's or Metcalf's law network effects (i.e. potential interactions a.k.a. entropy) are highly diminished when the choices users can make have been predetermined for them to a great extent by a few behemoths. Even though those "laws" are an approximation of reality, I submit it is self-evident that exponentially greater entropy is created by a million diverse (free thinking) independent users versus a billion xerox copy users. Thus to destroy Bitcoin all we (100,000 or million early adopter nerds) have to do is leave it. |
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What defeats your rebuttal in this case to me is that the 50-60% implied rate of continued success is still "good enough" based on his original argument. [snip] Coupling this with the idea that most things (like food) should have a significant loss in relative value (thus becoming more affordable as per prev. discussion in this thread) . . then I would logically conclude that my government would just increase taxes . . successfully allowing our game to continue. [snip] Maybe we could expand into a more detailed breakdown? Do you have any more examples? Short answer: ask the Wiemar subsequently Nazi Germans how it worked out for them. Longer answer: taxing over the Laffer limit during an economic downturn is not an equilibrium. Capital is hoarded, it spirals downward into an abyss, and everything grinds to a halt. See the prior post I made which had a link to a blog post by Martin Armstrong which elaborates on that. The 47% technological unemployment predicted by Oxford U, can have multiple outcomes. - Govt dissolves itself, we radically increase knowledge networking, everyone finds a new job. Yahoo!!
- Govt gets involved taxing, we use anonymity to dissolve govt and radically increase knowledge networking, everyone finds a new job. Yahoo!!
- Govt stays involved but not higher taxes, we don't figure out how to accelerate knowledge networking for most, so 47% unemployment.
- Govt gets involved by taxing, capital goes into hiding, the unemployment goes to 80% (other 20% work as thugs for the govt) and we euthanize everyone.
The range of outcomes is some where between those in varying degrees. Why does the government involvement matter on who finds a new job in high tech? Because for as long as the government will give you everything for free, why should the masses be bothered! This another reason there aren't more plumbers. No one has to do unglamorous jobs, because Obama and Europe and Canada provide social safety nets. Heck in Europe you only have to work 35 hours a week, you can't be fired, and you get 1 or 2 months paid vacation a year. And in some countries, they sleep in the office lounge chair in the afternoon or go to meetings at a fine restaurant.
[snip] [snip]
Carrots will continue their downward spiral of relative value. Iron used to be a precious metal. Commodities have trended downward in price for millennia.
[snip]
A more apposite phrase is " inexorable decline" which I employed in my seminal 2010 essay The Rise of Knowledge wherein I first explored this concept. You can find my sources there for the data documenting those claims. Also James A. Donald provided more sources specifically look at copper production since electrical wiring use has not declined. |
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I finally had a spare moment to contemplate the variables.
A key factor is the block size. If the block size is unlimited (and bandwidth is an insignificant cost), then unless miners have a monopoly they will accept transactions with fees as low as don't constitute a DoS attack, in order to maximize revenue.
In other words, they would have no pricing power at all (a Tragedy of the Commons) and the system would devolve into a partial-monopoly in order to gain pricing power.
A partial-monopoly in this case is enough % of the network hashrate to delay transactions (by that % of blocks) which do not include a sufficient fee.
If we limit block size, then the system doesn't scale.
If we let the Bitcoin foundation decide when to increase block size, then they control the economic market function, i.e. we've centralized Bitcoin.
Let us assume unlimited block size and partial-monopolies. Thus the transaction fee can always be forced higher in order to generate more revenue for the miners. Thus Bitcoin devolves (as coin rewards diminish) to a system that presents spenders with a choice between include a very high transaction fee or accept an ever increasing delay for confirmation. This will exacerbate as coin rewards diminish and volume of transactions increase.
If we instead assume limited block size, then the Bitcoin foundation will set the transaction fees, not the market.
Bitcoin is a broken design.
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The masses huddle into the NWO one world reserve currency and Global Technocracy fascist economy.
If your "masses" were so traumatized by banking, why would they trust any currency (considering that currency is an accounting instrument)? True they will for a while prefer to trade air. It is surely decentralized and no accounting. That is what we call a Dark ai rAge. |
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Okay I guess you convinced me.  Mea culpa. |
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Sounds good to me. I would like to see the fee be around the equivalent of $10 per transaction. That is about what I set my client to pay and it's worth every penny to me. In a busy year I may do 10 native transactions or so. In a dry one (like 2015 so far) the number of transactions I perform drops to zero.
And destroy the use value and network effects of having millions of people transacting in Bitcoin, thus destroying your investment and store-of-value too. Kudos.  P.S. I come back here to see if there are any serious (not useless noise) posts and the only one is from smooth. What else is new. Why he and I aren't working together is still a mystery to me. |
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[–]gavinandresenGavin Andresen - Bitcoin Expert
I think 1-minute blocks is a good idea. The best time to roll that out would be the next subsidy halving (makes the code much simpler).
We still need a bigger max block size, though.
redditJust to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, how about changing the block interval? I'm in favor of changing it. About 16 block per day would be about right as far as I'm concerned. Bitcoin never was a real-time system and real-time behavior when needed is best done for real in a proxy (e.g., a bitcoin-backed sidechain designed for such use-cases.) That addresses only a small symptom of the overall problem, i.e. the orphan rate. It does nothing for the fact that UXTO won't scale with RAM. Take them out of RAM. Slow the whole system, and more importantly, use it as the slow system that it is. Make quality (robustness) the over-arching goal over quantity and speed. It will never be competitive in this role and will burn itself up trying...even with minimal assistance from those whom it threatens. The tx rate doesn't slow down. You will need massively parallel disk arrays. Again centralization. It does nothing for the Transactions Withholding attack, pool Sybil attack, and inefficacy of getblocktemplate-at-scale issues I've raised.
More time to cross-check and verify when the system is operating slowly. More critically this slow rate expands and diversify the pool of potential operators which fosters decentralization into realms (virtual and otherwise) where it can really make a difference. That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't change any factor that addresses those attacks. It can't help you scale to micropayments volume.
Even the most stary-eyed gave up on the micro-payment-on-native-bitcoin pipe dream a long time ago. They are, however, one of the driving forces behind using Bitcoin in it's current proven form as a backing upon which target solutions such as micropayments can ride and thus become nearly a pure proxy. (Sidechains of course.) Sidechains will have the same technical challenge. What you are in effect doing is handing micropayments to Paypal, Coinbase, Circle, etc.. The cartel will control micropayments. I have the solution. But nobody likes me because I am frank. Insanity prevails! |
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...
Grandma and moma aren't you. And that is entire point of this drive to push Paypal, Circle, Coinbase, etc onto the masses. If you are arguing the masses will have the slightest clue that they need to move their wallet because of some obscure Digital Kill Switch that doesn't affect them, then you are disingenuous and absurd. So let's assume for a moment you have a functioning brain and you're right that the gvt teams up with all the banks and retail companies all within a giant cabal and the masses all are in Bitcoin. They hit the dreaded Digital Kill Switch. What happens then? Dissidents and competitors are targeted and eliminated (Digital Kill Switch one of the important tools of discipline on anyone who doesn't conform). The masses huddle into the NWO one world reserve currency and Global Technocracy fascist economy. 1984. It is a slow burn eugenics paradigm to achieve Ted Turner's 500 million population goal. |
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...
Grandma and moma aren't you. And that is entire point of this drive to push Paypal, Circle, Coinbase, etc onto the masses. If you are arguing the masses will have the slightest clue that they need to move their wallet because of some obscure Digital Kill Switch that doesn't affect them, then you are disingenuous and absurd. So let's assume for a moment you have a functioning brain and you're right that the gvt teams up with all the banks and retail companies all within a giant cabal and the masses all are in Bitcoin. They hit the dreaded Digital Kill Switch. What happens then? Dissidents and competitors are targeted and eliminated (Digital Kill Switch one of the important tools of discipline on anyone who doesn't conform). The masses huddle into the NWO one world reserve currency and Global Technocracy fascist economy. 1984. It is a slow burn eugenics paradigm to achieve Ted Turner's 500 million population goal. |
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...
Grandma and moma aren't you. And that is entire point of this drive to push Paypal, Circle, Coinbase, etc onto the masses. If you are arguing the masses will have the slightest clue that they need to move their wallet because of some obscure Digital Kill Switch that doesn't affect them, then you are disingenuous and absurd. So let's assume for a moment you have a functioning brain and you're right that the gvt teams up with all the banks and retail companies all within a giant cabal and the masses all are in Bitcoin. They hit the dreaded Digital Kill Switch. What happens then? Dissidents and competitors are targeted and eliminated (Digital Kill Switch one of the important tools of discipline on anyone who doesn't conform). The masses huddle into the NWO one world reserve currency and Global Technocracy fascist economy. 1984. It is a slow burn eugenics paradigm to achieve Ted Turner's 500 million population goal. |
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TPTB
NOTHING (inc. our business) is safe in Peru.
Our US condo is not safe. US Real Estate is not safe. US cash is not safe.
Gold is not "safe", at least to you. Platinum? Please laugh away.
Out of debt looks good to me.
Bitcoin is not safe.
Nothing is safe any where with what is coming if we don't make a release valve to the coming NWO fascist totalitarianism. They will take everything including your business and your gold. You have nothing to lose by betting 1% of your life's work on something you think could help save the world. For the future world of your kids. Or don't. I don't care. I need to stop wasting my time here. |
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Now do you see why it is a waste of my time to try to work with others to develop the solution we need? I expect this. That is why I didn't try. Anonymint registers account March 2013. What was price then, 80, I don't have access to chart. If he buys then, instead of being a bear, he's tripled his money? Maybe he wouldn't be struggling with bills?
So now we stoop again to character assassination when you've lost the factual debate? (this has been explained many times by me, thezerg don't accuse me of bringing my personal info in, now he is challenging me to explain what happened, but I won't repeat again, he can search my archives) |
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Anonymint registers account March 2013. What was price then, 80, I don't have access to chart. If he buys then, instead of being a bear, he's tripled his money? Maybe he wouldn't be struggling with bills?
So now we stoop again to character assassination when you've lost the factual debate? (this has been explained many times by me, thezerg don't accuse me of bringing my personal info in, now he is challenging me to explain what happened, but I won't repeat again, he can search my archives) |
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Usually, miners are good citizens and include many of the pending transactions. However, a block could be mined where all this consensus is ignored and the new block is full of transactions which the miner has "pulled out of his ass" (real-world business or not) with fees payable to himself. Apart from providing PoW security to older blocks, the new block is unhelpful, and many of them together is an attack.
So the "unauthorized" transactions are simply those that are already missing from the majority of the network's node mempools. The reason they are missing is that they have been discarded by most nodes, or never seen by them because the miner kept them quiet until finding a block.
There is no whitelisting or blacklisting unless 51% of the nodes are using the same whitelist or blacklist. If they are then there then that is a majority decision, and the risk of this is the same as today.
Also, standard new blocks with full tx would certainly remain supported even if IBLT was fully functional and in widespread use.
you just described AM's "targeted withholding attack". also it's solution. I hadn't read that. That isn't a solution because it is the wrong characterization of the coming reality of NWO fascism. I don't know if you've noticed the trend towards consolidation in the online retailing sector. For example here in the Philippines Ayosdito.com and olx.ph merged and now I can't buy imported vitamin D3 any more because the new cartel eliminated vitamin ads!  Consolidation will accelerate as the global economic implosion hits us 2016 (mostly in Europe) and accelerating in 2017 or 2018 in the USA. The masses love their WalMart, Target, Amazon, and other big names. The Big 5s will be folded into the Amazons. When we reach the point that 80% of online shopping is done through Amazon Payments, Paypal, Coinbase, Bitpay, Circle and a few others, then the case of the "transactions which the miner has 'pulled out of his ass'" (i.e. the txs that are for those big names) will be most of the transactions. As I said, the masses are working against your theory of political containment. Sorry you can't win with politics. You need a truly technically decentralized solution. As I said from my first comment in this thread that got you all so offended, you need to make the fundamental tenet of Satoshi's whitepaper the actual reality. Bitcoin isn't. Sorry. when i use Mycelium to scan your Amazon "attacker" payment address, it sends my BTC thru the Mycelium server who then forwards it out to the network "indiscriminately". thus, the payment tx cannot be hidden or held up Amazon's ass to be released en masse with billions of other Amazon tx's for the purpose of attacking and screwing other miners. If 80% of txs are being coursed through the cartel because the complacent masses use the GUIs the cartel websites present them, then Mycelium won't be hearing about them. And if the miners that didn't hear about them, don't approve those blocks, then they won't be participating in 80% of the economy and thus economically it is obvious who will win that battle of attrition. Size matters in Bitcoin. I want to change that. the GUI's != owner's wallets. owner's wallet are connected to the p2p network, not the Amazon's attacker ass. Masses will use the Circle, Paypal, Coinbase, Amazon, Facebook, etc wallet. This is why the banksters are funding all the large scale wallet startups. Sorry you can't win this argument. I thought about it in depth. sorry, none of the geeks should fall for it and alot of ppl have learned from mtgox and the other exchanges. and all the current unbanked billions won't be eligible for those company accts and will work off their smartphones. so no, an absurd cartel the likes of what you've described above will not be forming and even if it did, i just described how their share will be limited. no one likes cartels anyways. Well now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel and being either disingenuous or absurdly obtuse. Denial of reality won't help you. https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-just-passed-2-million-users/The newly U.S. licensed Bitcoin Exchange Coinbase has just passed 2 million users. This is a large mark for Coinbase and we at CCN sends our congratulations. I'm one of those 2M. And I pull my coin out immediately. Grandma and moma aren't you. And that is entire point of this drive to push Paypal, Circle, Coinbase, etc onto the masses. If you are arguing the masses will have the slightest clue that they need to move their wallet because of some obscure Digital Kill Switch that doesn't affect them, then you are disingenuous and absurd. |
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Sorry you can't win this argument. I thought about it in depth.
"Because I've thought about this in depth, it is inconceivable that I am wrong." - This is not the way to bring people around to your side, seriously! I am not trying to win a Communist kiss my ass contest. I am trying to elucidate the facts. If I say I have thought through all the details of the Transactions Withholding Attack ad nauseum over 2 years and entertained 100s of posts of debate, then it means I am speaking factually. A good card-carrying Communist can't handle facts, and thus doesn't want success. It doesn't mean I am not open to being wrong, but for how many posts do I have to debate before it becomes redundant and diminishing returns to 0? |
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If you seek ONLY small amounts ($10k), then I am not your guy, as you have pointed out. I lack important knowledge (and hard to acquire) vital in most of your project. You wrote recently that investing in things one does not understand leads to bad results (typically), and I came back at you with a a couple of such bad results in my own case. Still, best of luck!  I would risk 1% of my net worth betting on the intellect of a guy who I can clearly see. And to fix the threat to the other 99% of your net worth. You expect everything to be safe and guaranteed, and that will be your downfall. |
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Usually, miners are good citizens and include many of the pending transactions. However, a block could be mined where all this consensus is ignored and the new block is full of transactions which the miner has "pulled out of his ass" (real-world business or not) with fees payable to himself. Apart from providing PoW security to older blocks, the new block is unhelpful, and many of them together is an attack.
So the "unauthorized" transactions are simply those that are already missing from the majority of the network's node mempools. The reason they are missing is that they have been discarded by most nodes, or never seen by them because the miner kept them quiet until finding a block.
There is no whitelisting or blacklisting unless 51% of the nodes are using the same whitelist or blacklist. If they are then there then that is a majority decision, and the risk of this is the same as today.
Also, standard new blocks with full tx would certainly remain supported even if IBLT was fully functional and in widespread use.
you just described AM's "targeted withholding attack". also it's solution. I hadn't read that. That isn't a solution because it is the wrong characterization of the coming reality of NWO fascism. I don't know if you've noticed the trend towards consolidation in the online retailing sector. For example here in the Philippines Ayosdito.com and olx.ph merged and now I can't buy imported vitamin D3 any more because the new cartel eliminated vitamin ads! Consolidation will accelerate as the global economic implosion hits us 2016 (mostly in Europe) and accelerating in 2017 or 2018 in the USA. The masses love their WalMart, Target, Amazon, and other big names. The Big 5s will be folded into the Amazons. When we reach the point that 80% of online shopping is done through Amazon Payments, Paypal, Coinbase, Bitpay, Circle and a few others, then the case of the "transactions which the miner has 'pulled out of his ass'" (i.e. the txs that are for those big names) will be most of the transactions. As I said, the masses are working against your theory of political containment. Sorry you can't win with politics. You need a truly technically decentralized solution. As I said from my first comment in this thread that got you all so offended, you need to make the fundamental tenet of Satoshi's whitepaper the actual reality. Bitcoin isn't. Sorry. when i use Mycelium to scan your Amazon "attacker" payment address, it sends my BTC thru the Mycelium server who then forwards it out to the network "indiscriminately". thus, the payment tx cannot be hidden or held up Amazon's ass to be released en masse with billions of other Amazon tx's for the purpose of attacking and screwing other miners. If 80% of txs are being coursed through the cartel because the complacent masses use the GUIs the cartel websites present them, then Mycelium won't be hearing about them. And if the miners that didn't hear about them, don't approve those blocks, then they won't be participating in 80% of the economy and thus economically it is obvious who will win that battle of attrition. Size matters in Bitcoin. I want to change that. the GUI's != owner's wallets. owner's wallet are connected to the p2p network, not the Amazon's attacker ass. Masses will use the Circle, Paypal, Coinbase, Amazon, Facebook, etc wallet. This is why the banksters are funding all the large scale wallet startups. Sorry you can't win this argument. I thought about it in depth. sorry, none of the geeks should fall for it and alot of ppl have learned from mtgox and the other exchanges. and all the current unbanked billions won't be eligible for those company accts and will work off their smartphones. so no, an absurd cartel the likes of what you've described above will not be forming and even if it did, i just described how their share will be limited. no one likes cartels anyways. Well now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel and being either disingenuous or absurdly obtuse. Denial of reality won't help you. https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-just-passed-2-million-users/The newly U.S. licensed Bitcoin Exchange Coinbase has just passed 2 million users. This is a large mark for Coinbase and we at CCN sends our congratulations. |
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[–]gavinandresenGavin Andresen - Bitcoin Expert
I think 1-minute blocks is a good idea. The best time to roll that out would be the next subsidy halving (makes the code much simpler).
We still need a bigger max block size, though.
redditJust to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, how about changing the block interval? I'm in favor of changing it. About 16 block per day would be about right as far as I'm concerned. Bitcoin never was a real-time system and real-time behavior when needed is best done for real in a proxy (e.g., a bitcoin-backed sidechain designed for such use-cases.) That addresses only a small symptom of the overall problem, i.e. the orphan rate. It does nothing for the fact that UXTO won't scale with RAM. It does nothing for the Transactions Withholding attack, pool Sybil attack, and inefficacy of getblocktemplate-at-scale issues I've raised. It can't help you scale to micropayments volume. |
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