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781  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 03, 2012, 01:58:38 PM
Okay replying loosely to posts above and questions from Haplo:

1. The card does not know the balance -> The terminal will check if the address the card returns along with the tx has sufficient funds.
If so the terminal sends the tx to the network otherwise it says "overcharge" on the screen.

2. The card would be programmed by a third party that you would have to trust, however:
* The program loaded would be the same for ALL card manufacturers.
* The program would be open source and standardized.
* Anyone with a with a cable could program cards - for the paranoid.
* Using web-of-trust you would choose a trusted card programmer.

-> The cost for the individual remains 2$ for the card.
-> 15$ for the Android Phone + Cable Terminal (APCT) for the merchants.

3. PIN, address and keys would be sent to you along with the card or you would know if you programmed it yourself.

4. Maintaining anonymity:
* The card would contain multiple addresses and keys (~50).
* This allows spending with it again within 60 mins. after use.
* It also allows maintaining anonymity by only sending the address to the terminal that will be used to pay with.

5. Overcharge prevention:
* The card will have a number only you know.
* This number will be multiplied by the charge amount from the terminal and sent back.
* If the wrong result is shown you know you have been tricked and can just leave.
* If a new charge is sent before giving the PIN the card locks itself for 10 minutes.

6. Backend:
* We can add two features to the APCT app.
* A QR code scanner to scan price and item type from the wares. (QR code formats are standardized)
* The app will create a file with a column with QR results and a column with charged price.
* The auto-file/spreadsheet can later be merged with corporate databases automatically with a small parsing program.
* If the auto-spreadsheet is saved as XLS (Excel) it could also be used as-is.

7. "Needing a reader" - only merchants will need a reader (15$) (+Android and APCT app).

8. Hackability:
* Locked memory: Casascious (who seems knowledgeable about this field) said there is locked memory ONLY the card can see.
* Force: You would need access to the physical card and a microscope to FORCE the chip.
* Hack: If you hack the APCT app, save all used customer addresses and pins THEN you MAY one day be able to overcharge a multi-return customer for the small amount he keeps on his spending card.

So YES you CAN hack the smartcard, but it requires the physical card and collecting a lot of card information.
Merchants will have little incentive to do this anyway as their shops would be raided shortly after.
I'm sure Visa is no better really.

To BitCoinAndie about early markets:
1. First market:
Market:
* Bitcoin promoters and bitcoin physical exchanges.
Motive:
* This could be used by people trying to replace Western Union and such.
Users:
* It would be used by early adopters or rarely by normal people as a novel means of easy money moving.

2. Second market:
Market:
* Greece and other oppressed economies.
Motive:
* Cash is good and WILL be used, but it is not always practical - hiding your pension as devaluing bills inside your couch is hardly optimal.
* With a BTC client you have a safe savings account.
* All the users need is access to internet bars and a smartcard.
* The shop owners can more easily hide BTCs than cash in case of a raid.
* Transferring cash over larger distance (pay, relatives and investors) is a complete pain.
Users:
* Savers, businessmen, drug dealers and at times shops.

3. Third market?
782  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 07:11:54 PM
Universal adaptor, sorry mate, not really in scope for the way you are envisioning your system. I was thinking about a virtual wallet that enables BTC to link seamlessly into debit or credit card networks.
Yeah that seems quite impossible as the card would need to access mtgox, sell the BTC, send it back from mtgox... not happening via terminal!


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Selling into small mom & pop shops will be easier than selling into a national chain (but still time consuming) b/c they are more likely to accept some manual processes.
I am imagining the first markets as something like Greece where no one wants to pay tax to the bankers or young innovators starting out with minimum cash for terminals etc..

As for manual processes its pretty clear you know more than me about exactly what a cash register needs to do.

Still I am sure we could do more advanced functions; a spreadsheet with transaction records should be doable in an Android POS app from V.1 though - just save it to the SD card.

Since the Android has camera it could scan QR codes and add to an order too!


As for a complete automatic system that a supermarket would use that can wait a little.


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Sure you could depend on someone else to handle exchange risk, but hedging exchange risk might give you the opportunity to offset the cost of deploying your solution.


Well BTC are more stable these days and probably going up, that said you could set your address in the app to your mtgox address - that way your coins can be sold immediately for regular cash.

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(Most smaller merchants are not that tech savvy and rather risk adverse)  In my experience changing Merchant behavior to achieve meaningful scale will involve some sort of incentive meaning accepting BTCs is cheaper and/or brings new Biz.
I'm pretty sure our Android system would be simpler to start with than any Visa terminal I have heard of!

Old businesses might stay the same, but new businesses may see BTC and BTC POS as a godsend of simplicity to get started.

Yeah wouldn't need to rely on market penetration of BTC either as they could gift regular customers with BTC cards and load them with cash or something.

Hell for all the customers need to know they could be told it was a reusable gift card!

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If you want a recent analog, take a look at GreenDot. (Since they are publicly traded you should be able to get their Annual Report for the past few years from the SEC's website for free. In it you'll see a bit more about the cost of floating their system.

Sure you could design an opt in Smart Card system, but it'll be more like a novelty/alpha test than a prototype/beta test.

I have seen quite a few debit cards and they all seem like an expensive overlay to mastercard - whats the point?

Lets go full BTC and ALL that trouble, cost and those 2-3% fees disappear.

There must be a million BTC users by now, if 10% of them gave friends and relatives a smartcard loaded with 2 BTC as birthday presents that's an instant mega market.

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Payment systems are hard b/c they are highly regulated
Well in Scandinavia and Germany I think you can trade BTC all you like - as long as you pay your taxes as normal and a yearly budget - nothing new there.

True. You'll need to factor in Merchants reluctance. They tend to be afraid of voiding their warrantee, and that an untested systems might write errors to their G/L. So doable, but time to sell and implement and merchant value proposition must be compelling.
The same could be said for BTC, why did it ever take off?

Well however we debate that part of the reason was because it was THERE and it was USEFUL. If we focus on just that we can't mess up.

As for advanced merchants as you describe, for now, I would ignore them completely.

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So we're talking BTC converts like ourselves....
Well isn't it pretty sad that WE can't use our own damn currency even if we all lived in one town?

Lets fix that and see what happens.
783  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 03:04:54 PM
Sorry about the delayed response.  Any design leveraging the card processing network. Any network that registers debit or credits in USD.
I agree that is unacceptable, I am talking about a pure BTC system - client = bank, BTC card = USD credit card and BTC POS = Visa terminal.

A complete replacement, beautiful, simple, cheap and pure like BTC itself.

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It you co-locate a private BTC only network that doesn't talk to the merchant's cash register then you may as well move straight to mobile as the merchant will then have to reconcile by hand all BTC trade, since they well need some sort of paper trail for the accountants/ auditors.
Well lets say we develop a POS terminal accepting BTC (cards) directly.

It should not be much of a stretch to wire a USB cable from that into the corp computer that merges it with the normal POS data.

We would provide an API for communicating with the BTC terminal of course.

Otherwise all transactions and their times going into the corp address would be in the blockchain for later auditors.


Anyway big businesses will not be the first adopters, lets focus on the small guys - and thus, I think, the Android + 15$ cable connector.
784  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 02:49:15 PM
Guys the adoption rates on new merchant POS devices is an S curve. As for adapting existing hardware, merchants tend to be VERY reluctant as the POS device typically links into inventory management or at a minimum the G/L.....

Well there is no reason we can't develop the software for real terminals first, but where do you think our chances are best? Immigrant shops that would prefer using their Android or big supermarket chains?

Whatever the shape of the curve it can't begin before we create this tech - we could be the creators of a new world spanning standard here.

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My early sketches suggest that the cost structure of a "universal adaptor" would not be competitive
The components would cost in total 15$ as I wrote last post - that is at LEAST 10x cheaper than a normal POS system in my country.

If you go full terminal the cost largely remains the same, but you don't get a nice smartphone in the package to use after work.

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, so how do you get the merchants to accept a more expense system with increased settlement risk (yes it's non reversible, but 10 mins is 9 min 50 seconds too long meaning you've got to build a middle office to hedge that risk)

The system would be cheaper actually, both in implementation and use:

You just go by unconfirmed transactions.

If somebody pulls a double spend they get arrested as they are on your store camera or witnesses saw them.

Heck even pulling off a double spend is pretty hard to do, especially considering that we could program the POS to check for it (lots of transactions suddenly coming from the address after purchase).

You would wait max. 10s. - the time it takes to pack your groceries anyway.
785  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Lets get organized locally on: April 02, 2012, 02:05:37 PM
Since both of these projects seem to be run by the OP, couldn't you merge your data from the reviews site with the map?
786  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 01:31:01 PM
daptable currency and should use what is already ubiquitous, because it's too expensive to educate a market.

I agree totally. However to expand BTC beyond computer-to-computer use we need a POS-system.

Given this, the nature of BTC and your argument the technology that exists IS smart cards.


I don't think a swipe card can be programmed unless it has the same chip as a smart card anyway - otherwise I would be with you there.

Paper BTC won't work as you would have to trust a million different printers who could have saved the private key they put on the coin.
(Even Casasciuos has admitted this flaw)


Smart cards work very much like swipe cards though; the ONLY exception is that you insert it instead of swiping - PIN, terminal etc. all looks and acts the same.

You ignore the returned checksum unless merchants start scamming people.


The cards cost 2$ a piece so you could practically hand them out.

The terminal could be a 10$ cable, a free app and your already-owned android phone. A total cost of maybe 110$ that even grandmas could pay to with their card.


All WE have to do is to order the cards, cable (I'm sure it exists), develop the chip program and the android terminal client.

Then we release all our code, suppliers, data and guides and anyone can sell programmed cards in their region and anyone can download the app/buy the cable.

EDIT:
EXACT supplies needed to turn my Android into a POS terminal:
http://www.amazon.com/USB-Type-Female-Adapter/dp/B000GHXTA0
(1.1$)

http://www.athena-scs.com/products-solutions/readers/contact
(Approx. pricing of above: 14$ - source: http://www.kinapriser.dk/konig-smart-card-reader-p-4695.html)

So... lets start programming?
787  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 12:25:00 PM
I had another idea:

Step 1: Create smart card reader that can be connected to an android phone via the standard plug.

Step 2: Create app using said cable connector to turn the phone into a POS terminal.


Now anyone with a sub 200$ android phone could become a merchant!
788  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 02, 2012, 11:32:44 AM
With a display, at least, there's no reason you couldn't add Bitcoins the same way you spend them.  Even multi-sig backups could probably be made to work without a reader as well.

1. You load simply by sending BTC to the address of the card - you don't need a smartcard programmer to load it.

2. The card receives a transaction request and if you see the right checksum returned from the card, you give your pin.

3. Provided the pin, the card now signs the earlier transaction with a unreadable private key on the card and sends this signed message to the terminal.

4. The terminal publishes the signed message to the network.

ANYONE see any holes in this?

Yeah seen it; already added my proposal with checksums instead of LCD screens (not that those aren't cool! I had no idea that could be done) Cheesy

Anyway we can create a complete BitCoin economy system here:
1. Bitcoin client is your bank and online payment device.
2. Smart card is your wallet and credit card.
3. Simple terminals accept payments.

That's it! And its physically impossible for a merchant to hack your card.

Lets do a mailing list or facebook group with people who support this and have programming skills.

I'm busy now, but in the summer I can program for this project.

Since ?Cascious? has done this sort of thing before he should probably be the lead dev and we just help where we can and with promotion.
789  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Lets get organized locally on: April 02, 2012, 01:22:00 AM
I've been served !  Cheesy

In any case please add yourself to the map?

I will.

The textbox deleted my text when I switched tabs once though.

Neat project though.
790  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Lets get organized locally on: April 02, 2012, 12:09:52 AM
Well behaving like a douche won't get you organized much  Wink


How are you going to conveniently SEND bitcoins?

Ask everyone to get an Android phone?

Get lost if they only have IPhones?

Ask old grand mothers to manually punch in your BTC address on their old Nokia then send a text to this niche BTC sms pay site that turns out to be a scam later?


Everyone in the Western world uses credit cards/smart cards because it is EASY - get with the program.
791  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Lets get organized locally on: April 01, 2012, 10:58:16 PM
Well I think we need a POS and smartcard implementation up and running first:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7539.40


That done the bitcoin community should choose a town or city and massively launch bitcoin there.

At first we would launch one smallish town in each continent, then each state/country of 10 mil + people and so on.


A "Launch" could be something like the following:
1. Sending BTC smartcards to every or most residents - younger/marginalized/IMMIGRANT workers.
2. Renting out BTC POS terminals to many of the shops.
3. Free BTC donations to first time users in town.
4. BTC promoters/users/tourists/millionaires prioritize going to that town and spend a coin or two if they can.
5. Contact media outlets.
6. BTC businesses are already located there or re-locate there - paying in BTC naturally.

By focusing our energy we can skip over the slow adoption phase and accelerate things markedly.


Now what towns should we go with for (my ideas in parenthesizes):
Europe ("Totnes" - http://blog.inpolis.com/2012/03/19/towns-in-transition-resilient-innovation-as-response/)
North America
Asia
South America
Australia
Africa
792  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin smartcard Point of Sale terminal on: April 01, 2012, 10:12:17 PM
I've done a little research on this, and I think the way to go is to use a smartcard with an integral LCD display and at least one button.  These are on the market already.
Yes, but my checksum solution achieves the same with only normal super cheap smart cards.

What are the price of these display cards, I couldn't find it?

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Smart cards are expensive to produce, so cardholder adoption rates will be disappoint.
Actually normal smartcards cost less than 2$ a piece; buy in bulk and it comes down from even that.

(http://www.smartcardsupply.com/Content/Cards/ISO7816.htm)

An innovator/BTC promoter could send them to everyone in a city as a stunt for the price of a normal small ad campaign.

From there, usage can spread like a wildfire.

POS terminals are rented out to the largest merchants in town as part of the campaign.

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@OP:  Smartcard that's lost = lost money = non starter.
This depends entirely on design - I know my pin code, why wouldn't I just know my private key too?

With my BTC smartcard/wallet and my BTC client I am my own bank and card provider.


I can help develop stuff after the 30. of June and I'm an educated programmer.
I will do it for free, but with a small payment I could do it full time.

I don't see this as something that would take long to create a development kit for.
793  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Miners that refuse to include transactions are becoming a problem on: March 27, 2012, 06:02:54 PM
The TL;DR of it is: No changes to protocol necessary thanks. (Too many updates as it is - "patches to my money" makes me nervous!)


Too much money is being spent on mining compared to the transaction volume I think.

I get it increases security, but surely a "few supercomputers" are enough capacity if not too much for now.

When the reward is lowered alot of these rigs will shut off.

Even botnets have costs:
1. Risk of being arrested.
2. Programming/hacking time.
3. Updating after anti-virus updates (having to do major virus software updates regularly isn't exactly free)

Fees will rise to some set level; because the cost of processing each transaction is always similar.

If it approaches the actual hardware cost then it will be quite low since the BTC network could theoretically run on a few racks and some well connected nodes.

Lets say its 0.01 btc or in that area, you can still do nano-payments:
1. Transfer 1-5$ to your used site.
2. Use this to pay smaller fees they throw at you.
3. BTC network cost is only and needs only to be paid once.


So there is a small chance the network will trend to become very small and insecure though widely used.
I can only guess, but there are at least a few facts that may prevent this from happening:
 
1. Hardware sitting unused and depreciating in value can earn back some of the loss by mining for transactions.
A few idle corporate super computers doing this and the network is pretty safe.

2. BTC banks may ramp up idle hashing power immediately after big important transactions, then throttle down once its done. This would secure the network and their transactions against double spends.

If they detect an attack later all the banks and others will online their power to defend their interests (a double spend attack messes with every single transaction even if only one party is getting directly screwed).

This would be as simple as not working on the longest chain, but the longest chain YOUR transaction is included in.

The 51% attack would only look successful for a few hours.

3. BTC businesses might run a few nodes at a "loss" to further their user base.

4. Humans are not machines; its possible that people will NOT trend towards paying the minimum hardware cost, but will regard 0.01BTC (at current value) as arbitrary and just pay it.
Doing so you get an oversized and secure network like the one today.
794  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 12:43:09 PM
I get about 50 a minute, thats about 41 kb/s.

My load is around 5-10% average. Memory usage is a bit high right now since I doing programming in visual studio, but I have plenty to spare.
To clarify, you are seeing CPU load of around 5-10% while you are getting blocks at about 50 a minute. Is that correct?

Yes:

50 blocks/minute
Estimated datatransfer speed 41 kb/s (with each block = 50 kb)
5-10% average CPU load
1.5 gb of 2 gb ram allocated (windows 7... seems to load a lot of things - no slowdowns though)

EDIT: My client is the one from bitcoin.org, version 0.5.2
795  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 08:59:51 AM
Have you read src/doc/build-msw.txt ?

It should build under mingw.  I don't know if VS works.
Hmm I don't see that folder in src.

I'm not building with VS thats just homework Smiley

I kinda thought the bitcoin client was built each time you ran it - hence why the source files where there...
796  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 08:50:50 AM
If you want more connections you can open the inbound port and people will connect to you.  If you want to force more connections you can edit MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS in net.cpp.

Yeah did that before, how do I make it recompile? (I still get 8 connections only)
797  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 08:48:32 AM
Copying != committing. Committing takes about three spins of the drive per object committed.
Even so this seems to be taking too long unless the database commits are being done in horrendous manor...

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It's more likely the time it take to commit each block and transaction to disk and verify all the transactions in it. How many blocks per minute are you getting? What's your CPU load look like? What CPU do you have?
I get about 50 a minute, thats about 41 kb/s.

My load is around 5-10% average. Memory usage is a bit high right now since I doing programming in visual studio, but I have plenty to spare.

CPU is AMD64 dual core 5400+ 2.81 GHz. I run most heavy games though not at full graphics anymore.

I'm in Scandinavia so I don't know how good the node coverage is here.


I have modified the source code now, there was a constant in the top of file src/Net.cpp with MAX_OUTBOUND or something. Was 8 and I changed it to 80.

Program didn't seem to recompile though.
798  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 08:25:32 AM
The blockchain download speed is mostly limited by the time it takes the database to commit to the disk.  Extra connections won't help.

That is blatantly false, the size was what 500 mb in 2011 and now maybe its double that - I could copy that from disk to disk in a few minutes.

I have been waiting days with the client running - its crazy.

The 8 connections only is the problem.
799  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Getting the chain faster - more than 8 outbound connections on: March 27, 2012, 08:05:05 AM
Hey,

would it be possible to edit the source code so that more than 8 outbound connections were allowed?

(See this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41726.msg507980#msg507980)

Could anyone point me to the part of the source code I need to edit?

I think this should be standard, at least until you have the block chain - this will decrease the annoyance experienced by new users.
(or people like me with multiple computers)

I don't want to trust an online wallet.

Is there any selfish thin clients out yet? Something I could easily put on new computers?
800  Economy / Economics / Re: when you run out of other people's money... on: March 14, 2012, 11:37:56 AM
You can't make debt just go away, as long as the government is using more than its earning you will have inflation - spending means SOMEONE is getting paid and THAT money goes to the market.

In time productive people will switch to BTC and other stuff and also try to avoid paying taxes.


In the end the leeches of the world are left with a lot of worthless paper.
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