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81  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Anti-mining movement with their own agenda READ ON on: April 28, 2011, 12:53:30 PM
...people like Vladimir aka JJG and other puppets belonging to him...
Whoa. You've jumped from "Vladimir might be JJG" to "Vladimir aka JJG". Any chance of giving them a chance to respond before stating it as a foregone conclusion?

I can't personally see any resemblance in their posting styles, but regardless of my opinion - or your opinion - giving people the chance to defend themselves against allegations is the decent and honourable thing to do.

It doesn't matter what they or he says, it's just my opinion and i feel i need to share it with those who might see something in it. Just like anyone else can give his opinion here i'll respect that too.

82  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: If you're thinking buying mining hardware, read this first on: April 28, 2011, 12:45:53 PM
I very much doubt Vladimir is "that big" or that he can really discourage the majority of new wannabee miners.

I agree, in my opinion he's more hot air than anything close to what he's trying to project to the community. Jus like his random posts of capacity and selling out quickly. If it was that easy
others with the resources would have been flocking here much sooner. But point is, it annoys the hell out of me to see these type of figures polluting the community with disinformation or pulling things out of their context.
83  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Anti-mining movement with their own agenda READ ON on: April 28, 2011, 12:38:35 PM
Sure, mining can be expensive and might not bring the rewards one expects depending on a shitload of factors. Yet the system is balanced, so even if difficulty increases it'll not mean that mining is pointless, cause if it did the whole bitcoin idea is flawed and is just another hype only reachable for those with huge "factories" to throw at it.

But all that infomation is already known and can be found anywhere. The only thing which is disgusting is people like Vladimir aka JJG and other puppets belonging to him or people who fear their expensive business might suffer (or already suffering!) jump on everyone who even thinks of mining. Probably to protect their overpriced or suffering commercial business spreading more negative information about bitcoin mining than the good. Always mentioning the "moms cellar/basement/attic" and always "going belly up" etc ... it's a bit of an insult to many people who are making bitcoin survive. Without them bitcoin can't survive.


84  Bitcoin / Mining / Anti-mining movement with their own agenda READ ON on: April 28, 2011, 12:10:30 PM
I've been from time to time following the discussions here but never registered on the forum. But after getting more and more irritated by clearly people trying to actively discourage others from mining i couldn't resist and had to register to get this out.

I suspect that JJG and one or two others are just puppets created by Vladimir. If you follow their posts and anything which has to do about starting your own mining operation they'll jump on it and try to push it to the ground. It's possible that JJG and other puppets are all and the same person which might be Vladimir himself. It is an INSULT to the community to keep up this theatre and believe that the community is stupid enough not to see your games. Perhaps business is going bad for Vladimir aka JJG aka .. so they resort to these low tactics and discourage as many people as possible.

But it is disgusting to see always the same puppets jump on threads whenever some one has an initiative to mining or setting up shop. Especially newbies with a few posts showing up with the same tactics and at some point Vladimir popsup to add his two "bits".

Anyway, that's my opinion, and i hope others can see the pieces of the puzzle they're playing and draw their own conclusions.

85  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: If you're thinking buying mining hardware, read this first on: April 28, 2011, 12:09:25 PM
If you've used one of the generic bitcoin profitability calculators, you've probably been surprised by the projected income from Bitcoin mining. The profitability numbers can be shockingly high for just buying a video card, putting it in your PC, and running a program 24/7.

But all of the online calculators I've seen omit the biggest hurdle: Difficulty increases.

The bitcoin network is designed to produce approximately 2016 blocks every two weeks. With high performance hardware becoming cheaper and more widespread and more users jumping on the mining bandwagon, the only way to keep the block production rate constant is to make it harder. Thus, every two weeks the difficulty adjusts to slow down or speed up production to match this 2016 blocks / 2 weeks target rate. This almost always goes up.

In fact, it goes up at an alarming rate. Sipa maintains some excellent charts of the increasing difficulty over time here:
http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
Notice how difficulty is increasing rapidly. (The link is very flaky, so check back often if it doesn't load right away).

If you're going to make any long-term projections about the profitability of mining hardware, you must take periodic difficulty increases into account. Right now, the next difficulty increase is predicted to be about a 15% jump at the next increase. This means a rig that pulls in 29 BTC per week right now (typical for an OCed 5870 running phoenix) will only be making 25.5 BTC per week. Add another 15% difficulty and that drops to 22.2 BTC per week. Six months from now (at 15%) that drops to 6.3 BTC per week.

On the other hand, the exchange rate has been increasing lately. If you believe this will continue, then the numbers above don't look as bleak. However, it also means that you'd be better off purchasing BTC rather than mining hardware. If the exchange rate really does increase, your BTC will increase in value. Meanwhile, your hardware will only depreciate and produce less BTC over time.

There are some other costs and hurdles that miners tend not to consider when calculating profitability:

1. Downtime - This isn't just the 100% downtime when you're rebooting your computer or updating your miner application. Using your desktop will slow the miner down somewhat. Perhaps a lot if you're gaming or watching a video. Even dedicated mining rigs will have to contend with periodic pool outages or network hangups bringing production down from 100%.

2. Frictional mining costs - Unless you're solo mining (in which case you'll be dealing with variance) you're going to give up some small amount to whatever pool you join. Fees, stale shares, etc. Figure 3% or so of your output.

3. Frictional conversion costs - Unless you're going to be buying things strictly in BTC (not likely for a miner) you're going to have to pull the money out into your native currency. Conversion costs on small amounts will be painful. Conversion costs on larger amounts won't be as bad, but you'll still lose at least 1% and probably more.

4. Cooling costs - Summer is fast approaching in the northern hemisphere. Cooling a house or apartment is difficult in many regions, and even more so with computers pumping heat into your room. If your computer consumes 1000W, then it is ultimately dumping 1000W of extra heat into your room. If you don't think this is significant, go run a 1kW hairdryer in a small space for a few minutes and see how much warmer it gets.

5. PSU Inefficiencies - Any power supply won't be 100% efficient. The only semi-accurate way to gauge power consumption is to use a Kill-a-watt or equivalent at the plug and measure the power directly. If your video cards + mobo + CPU draw 1000 watts from your power supply, it's probably drawing 1200 watts from the wall. Your electricity costs are 20% higher than you expected.

Bitcoin mining is a race to the bottom, and if you don't already own a capable computer then you've probably missed the boat. You will always be up against people with lower (or no) electricity costs, and people who are buying hardware cheaper than yours. If you're counting on the increasing exchange rate to buoy your mining rig profitability, then you really should be investing directly in BTC, not buying mining hardware. Increasing exchange rates will only drive more people out of the woodwork who are willing to mine for meager profits. Even worse, there are plenty of people who don't grasp the concept that electricity and heating aren't free, and will mine for negative profits.

So before you drop cash on a new mining rig, think long and hard about whether or not you'll find it useful for anything other than heating your house in the winter.

I've been from time to time following the discussions here but never registered on the forum. But after getting more and more irritated by clearly people trying to actively discourage others from mining i couldn't resist and had to register to get this out.

I suspect that JJG and one or two others are just puppets created by Vladimir. If you follow their posts and anything which has to do about starting your own mining operation they'll jump on it and try to push it to the ground. It's possible that JJG and other puppets are all and the same person which might be Vladimir himself. It is an INSULT to the community to keep up this theatre and believe that the community is stupid enough not to see your games. Perhaps business is going bad for Vladimir aka JJG aka .. so they resort to these low tactics and discourage as many people as possible.

But it is disgusting to see always the same puppets jump on threads whenever some one has an initiative to mining or setting up shop. Especially newbies with a few posts showing up with the same tactics and at some point Vladimir popsup to add his two "bits".

Anyway, that's my opinion, and i hope others can see the pieces of the puzzle they're playing and draw their own conclusions.


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