Wow.. you just raised an important issue about focusing on privacy.
Though I am a very very very pro of privacy, I was thinking, what privacy people really have if they have to trade on an exchange, with KYC and AML, even on localbitcoins, the seller got my name because I transferred fiat to him from my bank to his.
There is no privacy as such.

May be developers can find a way to create a voting thing online in different places, if a bitcoin user minds to sacrifice part of his privacy for more speed of transaction or for lower cost.

I believe acceptable privacy is something like “privacy” with bank accounts, just a few people can see and know that you transferred money or got money from Mr. Xyz, but they don’t really care about you.

Just my opinion, when it comes to privacy someone only care about “specific” people not knowing “specific” things, it is not about absolutely no body knows nothing.
It is impractical. As said, you can cheat some people all the time, or cheat all the people for sometime, but you can’t cheat all the people all the time. Replace with privacy and...

Maybe developers need to conduct a voting.

Edit: volatility I think is scaring many people away, not everybody is risk tolerant, risk tolerance even differs between different people.

You just pinpointed and gave a reason to something I mentioned earlier about budget deficits and inflation intentionally. You are right.

Governments and many economist believe there must be inflation, money value (the value of your savings) should be always going down, so, people will spend the money. If value of money is going up people will not spend their money, so, factories will not be selling their products.. recession, unemployment... etc. So, to keep the economy and employment going and growing there should be inflation, that is we should punish you if you saved money.

To a certain extent, they are right, but with all my respect, even to my professors who taught me even this, this is right, but, not absolutely right, not fare, not justice.
Why, because no matter how much the currency appreciates, people are organically created to consume, they need to eat, drink, home, leisure, clothes,... etc, and they always look to get more and get better. So they will be spending anyway, no matter what. They will be always looking for better food, better clothes, better car, better homes, people “save” money to spend it later and usually for something better than they can get now.
So, there will be at anytime people spending money even it appreciates.

He will not stay living in the street if he can afford to buy an apartment, no matter how he expects his savings to appreciate.

Bitcoin for now is a hedge, and an investment. A great one.

Based on my previous post, my be there should be a thread specifically discussing wallets, features, standards, how to include ALL crypto and  fiat, banks, cards... all should be directly convertible instantly.

Maybe I can make a silly suggestions, let people keep their wallets running, wallets will contribute to mining or blockchaining.. or whatever you call it. As much as I contribute to the network, I get from the network, something like torrents p2p sharing, you keep seeding after downloading to have better torrent speed.. etc.
This should go perhaps to another thread if someone is interested.

@plorph

Thank you for your comment.
Let me discuss a bit more, and hope someone gives me some extra clues.

1- you almost pinpointed a phrased what I was not able to clarify. A user is just a user, even if he is a developer of blockchain and BTC, when it comes to using the “money” I am sure he would prefer using it as easy as cash, not more “complicated “ than using an ATM, this is of course a must for the public.
2- Honestly I can’t tell what is the difference, advantages, disadvantages of lightning, Segwit, larger block sizes.. or even a fork, or a new different crypto.
What I care about is to have:
a) almost zero transaction fee
b) instant transfer
c) maximum “difficulty” less than using an ATM

But still, I can say, a, b, and c can be a bit higher than fiat, to a certain extent, it can be considered a price average Joe, or illiterate and very poor Joe pays because he is getting a currency that is increasing in value and for convenience.
People are already accepting bank fees for keeping the money in the bank, for convenience, for safety... etc. So it can be accepted to pay a fee for a crypto transaction, but within a limit. What would happen do you think if banks said they will charge you for example 100 USD annually for maintaining your accounts, if my balance is 10000, it might be ok, if my balance is only 1000 I will keep my money at home.

So, again, I am not saying mining or managing the transaction must be free, but rather saying, the lower fees, the faster, the easier, the more it goes mainstream, it should be economic for donating a tip, or buying just a small bottle of water.
3- it is just a matter of time as more users and traders come in, the less volatile it gets.
4- I don’t know what atomic swaps are, but what I care about to boost crypto and simplify its use is the possibility to send directly from my wallet which has bitcoins only, an amount in any fiat currency to be received by someone who has a wallet only in ETH, or send crypto to crypto, or crypto to fiat or opposite.
Just a new idea, maybe a crypto wallet will have as well fiat currencies, it is a currency anyway, BTC, ETH, LTC, USD, EUR, JPY.. all are just currencies. Maybe include my bank account(s), my debit or credit card(s).. pay with NFC, Sms, etc... oh.. I am dreaming again while awake and typing!

Quote:
countries like Zimbabwe and Greece and Venezuela. In some sense, the USA are moving in that direction too, with their National debt spiralling out of control.

We need a lot more "old generation" economist to see the harm that are being done by these people and how Crypto currencies might change that. The only problem is, these governments wants to ban "Public" Blockchains and implement "Private" Blockchains. <this will be their final death blow>
Unquote

First, you are still classifying me as “old” generation!! I assure you I am so teen, even naughty some times. You are as well old generation, don’t you have some printed papepers in your pocket or wallet?

Al the evils you mentioned come mainly from one reason. Governments prepare a budget by first listing on one side what it “should” spend, what they wish to spend. Then on the other side they list their sources of income, taxes, duties, fees, revenues from public companies... etc. They don’t get surprised when they find they want to spend 100, but their real income is just 90. No oops... really, it is intentional to have a deficit and have inflation.

Two ways to cover up this 10 units difference (deficit), either print some, borrow some, or both.

Simply creating debt all the time, creating inflation all the time INTENTIONALLY

But I am not here to talk politics or criticise any government, it’s not my business.

I am here to contribute something to crypto and learn.

Quote:

I think it's my first time that I have seen an economist out here, welcome here. What I believe you're trying to do is a write a white paper on bitcoin, I am not a expert but this what I feel about Bitcoins, it's based on a simple formula of supply and demand. Like all currencies it gets effected by global news, however at times when the news is negative about Bitcoins it will tank and then on a matter of days be back, for other general news you will hardly see any difference. It's one of the most interesting currency to follow, and now it has many duplicates. Then there are forks which generate other duplicates. There's to much to learn you'll enjoy it.

Unquote

Hopefully any contribution I make as an economist would be of little value for Bitcoin as a “currency” even crypto is mainly about economy, economics, business and trade, not only IT and programming. In addition, maybe we need someone experienced with sociology, his inputs will be of real value, because we are talking not only about average and above people, but also the unbanked people. The subject has a social aspect as well, may I say even a psychiatrist?

I assure you, I am not up to write a white paper or a research or whatever. I stated clearly I admire the idea of crypto currencies as an economist. I see that most of the economic “evils” in the world are because of just printing fiat money, inflation, poverty, unbanked people... etc.

And yes, I mentioned somewhere that I see crypto and bitcoin as a “foreign” currency or as a gold or silver coin or bullion. Both are still for some people not for everybody yet.
I wish it becomes for everybody for every and any transaction.

This is one of the reasons of my “existence” here, the top reason is to learn and to contribute something hoping it will make life easier for humans in general, and for my kids.

@jseverson

Thanks, I never said I am above average in IT, I was just having a global worldwide birds eye view.
Average IT Joe in USA, Japan, UK... is an expert for an average IT Joe in third world countries, in third world countries, an average Joe is an expert for the average Joe in more less developed.

I am saying above average taking into consideration the whole world population and their level of knowledge and experience because I assume we are talking about a “global” currency Bitcoin, it will presumably be exchanged by or with a poor guy somewhere in a village in a third world country, he might be not able even to read and write, but he still can use a mobile phone, so he should be able to easily install, send, receive Bitcoins.

I am not saying that there is a technological barrier as such for the current users who are already average at least in everything, those are just a percentage of the global world population, and I would like to see crypto available for everybody.

Thank you very much for your welcome

I signed up a while ago mainly to learn. There is a lot I do not understand, a lot I don’t even know.

It is not that simple for me, though I am an economist, and bitcoins or crypto are money, assets, investment,... it is not that simple for me...

I have a lot to learn.

@soham, @Youghoor

What I see currently that cryptocurrencies especially Bitcoin are a fact of life, it exists, it has value, it has a market, it has an exchange rate.... it just exists as the internet exists.

It is already being accepted gradually in mainstream economy, more and more people are investing in it. Some big corporates are at least considering trading it, or making it available for their clients, or to be an investment tool available for their clients.

But still, in the current situation, it seems to me to be an asset like a gold bullion some time ago, (though better than gold), or as a share in the stock market that appreciate in value.

But, unfortunately, still it is not qualifying as a currency 100%, though it has all the characteristics and definitions of a currency because of 2 main points:
- it is still too volatile ups and downs (even in a country with hyper inflation, the citizen knows that inflation is 100% daily, so it is simple to calculate, 1 usd is 1 local currency, tomorrow it will be 2, 4, 8,... which is not “yet the case with crypto”
- still you get charged for spending your crypto, mining fees, which is not the case in fiat money. This feature makes it inconvenient for micro payments, buying a bottle of water for 1 usd might cost you 3 usd in mining fees.

I see though, it might be acceptable if:
- volatility is minimum, and
- there is a steady increase in bitcoin value/price,

No matter what governments do, it will still exist, but for now at least, for the next few years, I unfortunately don’t see it to fully replace all fiat currencies, fiat currencies will still exist. BItcoin or any other crypto can be thought of as a currency of a “new country “ on planet Earth, a country x, and it’s currency is bitcoin, country y and it’s currency is ETH, country z with currency LTC. As USD did not “eliminate” JPY, EUR did not replace USD, I see the same for crypto, at least with the facts and givens at this stage.

But still, to my understanding, BTC and cousins or sons are like gold or silver dollars, or pounds or rands. Not exactly as FIAT currencies because of cost of mining.

To answer if it would be accepted by governments, governments have only one option, only to accept it, adapt to it,... Japan recognised it as a currency, by the way, in economics the exchange rate of two currencies, is the same as the exchange rate between 1 KG of meat and USD, the same as the exchange rate of 1 kg of meat and half a chicken, they are all actuall barter trade.

The worst case it will be considered by governments if not a currency as just yet another product or commodity exchanged in the markets, or as a “foreign” currency. It might even be exchanged as foreign currency in banks and exchanges.

Can somebody guide me how to mine the new bitcoin gold. Preferably on iOS, is it possible?
What would be it’s expected price, how many can be mined daily or monthly?

I wonder if Bitcoin developers read the above, if they want to discuss or clarify things for me.

I wonder why my reply was deleted.


Deleted Post
« Sent to: limopc on: Today at 10:21:14 AM »
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A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

Just please explain what I did wrong.

I see!

This looks to me as worthless currency then if I don’t have a way to exchange it. I am not favouring using any exchange... exchanges somehow don’t appear to me as fitting to the principle of freedom.

Exchanges in my opinion should be only for converting crypto <-> Fiat, from and to my bank account.

Maybe the community can come up with something so people can exchange their cryptos, something like localbitcoins, and shapeshift combined.

What you think guys?

Shapeshift perhaps or something similar? Still we have to see which wallet will support it.

So, we should expect some free coins and a boost in BTC price? Same scenario as Bitcoin Cash?

Thanks guys.

So, in any case people having bitcoin will receive bitcoin gold for currency plus Segwit2x currency, it just depends on the wallets that supports BTC and both new currencies, as far as I understand now.
Am I right?

If so, I should claim the 2 new currencies, shapeshift them to a “known” crypto (BTC, ETH, LTC...) then back to my “normal” wallet? Am I understanding this properly?

Thanks guys for all your help. I am new and unfortunately have no enough time to follow all discussions going on in this world. But I am trying my best.

I really wish I can transfer ALL my balances to crypto, but still not the time yet.

I have just rechecked my wallet and recalculated using xe the mining fees for different transactions.
I found it like 0.0004, sometimes up to 0.001, or 0.0008. 0.0005 by current price equals 2.38 USD to make a transfer.

Now we have another problem, you don’t even know how much the transfer will cost you.
To make a small payment for a bottle of water, a Pepsi, a tip, the 2.x Usd is a big percentage.

So it is still only feasible and economic to calculate the cost of transferring a certain amount of money through a bank (check fees or whatever) to the cost of sending it in bitcoins. So it is still more economic for relatively high amounts of money. Someone will see the cost 2 usd very high to send 20 usd, some might even see it high for transferring even 100 usd, it is 2.38 % extra cost.

Someone rich migh not mind sending his son at college 20 usd at 10 percent cost, but for the general public, for the poor, for the unbanked people who live at less than 2 dollars a day (I am not sure what is the current official definition by the UN), definetly they won’t by their daily needs at this rate.

For now, we are talking about the niche sector who can use crypto to be the middle class and up, with reasonable income. And they would only use it for a few things, maybe fill up the car, pay rent, but they will not use it to buy a bottle of water or a burger.

I hope this explains what I am talking about.
Edit: don’t calculate Satoshi per byte, the day to day average Joe will not welcome calculating his bytes and network load and...etc.. before making a payment. They need to know it will cost them roughly x dollars to decide if it is better to pay in BTC or in cash.

Thanks, the link you posted I just read so quick, what it says is simply bitcoin adoption, use.. etc is growing and it is here to stay.

The point no. 3 is simply as follows:
How much would it cost you to pay in BTC only 10 cents to someone?

LOL...
 
Thanks  Kakmakr... but I don’t count myself “old generation”.. I am a bit old... yes... but old generation absolutely not. I am tean at heart. I am always following up new ideas and new technologies in any field, especially if it is business or economics related.

Definitely crypto currencies and blockchain is a revolution and innovation that is going to change everything in everything, finance, trade, investment, banking and above all central banking.

To comment on your post, no matter what governments or central banks do, they have only one choice. Admit, adopt and adapt to the new facts that there are non inflationary free crypto currencies.

On the other hand crypto developers have to discuss and tackle the issues facing crypto currencies and its functionality. (my second post). The community has to decide what are the targets and priorities.
Based on these priorities development should go.

P.S. as an economist, technically, I hate the fact that money gets printed just as a central bank sees convenient. This is another reason I personally wish to see crypto currencies based on the principles of Bitcoin and Satoshi Nakamoto a day to day currency, a currency that allows you to tip a waiter or donate 1 cent to a beggar, a currency you can receive your salary in. But having a for example a Crypto Dollar, or Euro,..etc... that gets issued by a central authority doesn’t mean it is a REAL crypto currency. Though it still can happen I guess.

Oops, I am again lost in all this.
So you say bitcoin gold is just a fork of the original BTC.
My apologies for my ignorance... but now we have 2x fork and bitcoin gold fork?
This means BTC holders will be receiving 2 new currencies?

Which of them is proposed by companies, which by the community? Would a crypto proposed by a group of companies survive as it is not community driven as such? I may be mistakenly applying my understanding and experience with Linux and open source software to cryptos.

Any guidance will help me understand more.
Thanks