How does a minimum difficulty of 512 make a pool not "fair"?
Because I would submit more shares on lower difficulty. Or am I wrong on this? |
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Well, everyone can dream I suppose. I'm not really sure why the inability to set your minimum difficulty to 512 would have been a reason to quit a pool. I find it especially curious that the very reason for you leaving a pool is not even listed as a requirement for your dream one.
Yes. Inability to set minimum difficulty to below 512 is not the only reason why I want to have my own pool. Only miners with hashrates above 1 Th/s get the benefits from all available pools on the planet now. The miners with hashrates lower than 1 Th/s only get dust payout. So I think I have listed the requirements for this reason. Why do you want to attract pool hoppers?
All miners including the pool hoppers must have the same opportunities to mine. However, the pool hoppers must also understand the impact of what they are doing, hence the penalty should be applied to them. But the penalty must be applied so that it will still make them come back to the pool. I am not sure though if the penalty that I mentioned would be able to manage that. How would your pool provide an advantage to miners with low hash rates?
On all pools now, most rewards go to the miners with huge hashrates. So the miners with low hashrates only get dust payout. I thought it would be good for the miners with low hashrates if the gaps between all miners are quite close, so their payout would still be higher than what they would get on the other pools. I don't understand your payout scheme at all. Way too many weird things going on... The coinbase transaction of the miners' Bitcoin addresses will be updated each hour Huh? Makes zero sense. I am not sure how to explain this using the right terms. But this is what has been done already by Eligius pool for years, where the miners' addresses are being included into the transaction so their payouts are being done automatically as soon as the new block is found, without the need to execute the payout manually. The different is that on Eligius, the list is taken from the miners that their shares value exceed the threshold, sorted base on how long they are waiting to be paid out. I thought it would be fair to pay the miners listed on the previous hour before the new block is found, so they do not need to wait for days to get the payout. - The payout will be based on the total shares recorded on the previous hour
- The shares that have been paid out will be reset at the time the payout is being executed
- When the total shares of miners remain the same on previous 2 hours, they will be set as dormant miners
- The total share of each dormant miner will be deducted by 1% and they will be distributed to all active miners on the next hour as bonus share
Wait... first you state the payout is based on previous hour's shares. Alright, so you only count an hour's worth of mining? Weird... but fine. But wait, how then can I tell if a miner has been inactive for the previous 2 hours? If I'm paying and resetting every hour, then I have no way to know if somebody was dormant for the hour prior. First of all, I am quite sure that in reality the pool will not find a new block every hour. It would be great if that would happen but that is not realistic. If you assumed that the pool will find new block every hour, then yes the scenario that you mentioned applies here. But even if that would happen, it is easy to detect the dormant miners as their shares will always 0 in the next hours until they mine again. All other active miners will always have the shares recorded because they keep submitting the shares before the next recording hour is reached and they payout is done based on the record of the previous hour. For instance, the shares of a miner recorded at h hour is X and the pool has not found a new block at h hour. The pool finds a new block in between h and h+1 hours. At this time, his total share is X+Y, where Y is the shares mined after h hours. That miner will get the payout of X share value and he stills has Y shares and counting which will be recorded on the next hour. |
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I am a new hobbyist miner with only 150 Gh/s total hashrate. I have been searching for pool that can give me the highest payout in the last 5 months, but I still cannot find the right one for me. The pool that I have been mining on the longest is Eligius. But I still don't see it to be a fair pool for me as I cannot set my difficulty to below 512. So I am dreaming to have my own pool.
I am still not familiar with the terms in Bitcoin. And I still do not understand all about mining business. So I would like to get inputs from all of you on this.
If I would make a public pool with the objectives, requirements and payout scheme as below, do you think I would reach my objectives? Do you think the requirements and payout scheme make sense? And what do you think we could improve to reach the objectives?
Objectives:
- Decentralise Bitcoin network, so it will only support Bitcoin
- Attract miners with low hashrates and pool hoppers
- Provide more advantage to miners with low hashrates
- Transparent information on the reward payout
- The pool must not make any profit but it must not go bankrupt
Requirements:
- Miners do not need to register to the pool
- Miners can only use Bitcoin address to mine
- Bitcoin address of the miners will be validated
- Miners with invalid Bitcoin addresses will be rejected
- Minimum accepted hashrate per Bitcoin address is 100 Gh/s
- Maximum accepted hashrate per Bitcoin address is 1000 Gh/s
- Miners with hashrates lower than 100 Gh/s must join a group and mine with a single Bitcoin address
- The distribution of payout on the miners' group should be managed by the group
- Miners will submit approximately the same shares managed by vardiff
- The fee for the pool maintenance is 0.05% of the total reward
- All 99.95% of the reward must go to the miners
- The minimum payout for each Bitcoin address is 0.001 BTC
- The payout will be rounded down to the nearest 0.000001 BTC
- The remaining dust payout will go to the pool maintenance account
Payout scheme:
- All miners will get the payout based on their porpotional and bonus shares
- The coinbase transaction of the miners' Bitcoin addresses will be updated each hour
- The payout will be based on the total shares recorded on the previous hour
- The shares that have been paid out will be reset at the time the payout is being executed
- When the total shares of miners remain the same on previous 2 hours, they will be set as dormant miners
- The total share of each dormant miner will be deducted by 1% and they will be distributed to all active miners on the next hour as bonus share
- The dormant miners will be changed back as active miners when their total shares on previous 2 hours keep increasing
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Simply put your writings if sincere show you don't understand the math involved.
Yes, indeed I don't understand the math involved in Bitcoin mining because everything are only about possibilities and probabilities, so math in this case does not exactly give me 1+1=2. I have been looking for practical answer as there are a lot of other factors involved. Why are you posting in a thread that has nothing to do with any of the pools your talking about? You need to read up on how PPLNS works. It can be difficult to understand at first. I am not sure if I understood your question. I have read the explanations about PPLNS and Jonny even gave me more detail calculation about that. But to me that is just theory as in practice or in reality, the result is totally different. |
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Simply put your writings if sincere show you don't understand the math involved.
Yes, indeed I don't understand the math involved in Bitcoin mining because everything are only about possibilities and probabilities, so math in this case does not exactly give me 1+1=2. I have been looking for practical answer as there are a lot of other factors involved. |
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Ok... now if we go back to my original statement, with Eligius, you can never, ever make more than that 0.064146152448BTC in those 12 weeks. On kano, you can make more than that, or you can make less. Kano's pool has, since inception, been running about 101% luck. That has no bearing on future luck - it is just a metric of past performance. However, it is a metric that shows had you been mining on Eligius for the past year and on kano for the past year, given identical hash rates on each pool, you would have made more on kano.
I have been mining on Kano's pool from 20/11/2015 until now or about 7 days and I have got only 1.5 mBTC in total from blocks 384498, 384724, 384805 and 385383. If I would have mined on Eligius, I would have made about 5 mBTC. On Antpool, I would have made about 4 mBTC. How would that be practically possible to make more BTC on Kano's pool than Eligius, even if I would mine on Kano's pool for a year? Please, don't mine on my pool.  You can be sure that I will not mine on your pool even if I would have 1 Th/s hashrate. I thought I could make more on your pool so I can just ignore your behaviours toward Eligius pool, wizkid057 and Luke. But I am wrong about that. |
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Ok... now if we go back to my original statement, with Eligius, you can never, ever make more than that 0.064146152448BTC in those 12 weeks. On kano, you can make more than that, or you can make less. Kano's pool has, since inception, been running about 101% luck. That has no bearing on future luck - it is just a metric of past performance. However, it is a metric that shows had you been mining on Eligius for the past year and on kano for the past year, given identical hash rates on each pool, you would have made more on kano.
I have been mining on Kano's pool from 20/11/2015 until now or about 7 days and I have got only 1.5 mBTC in total from blocks 384498, 384724, 384805 and 385383. If I would have mined on Eligius, I would have made about 5 mBTC. On Antpool, I would have made about 4 mBTC. How would that be practically possible to make more BTC on Kano's pool than Eligius, even if I would mine on Kano's pool for a year? |
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Edit: and if you're a "I need my bitcoins 'now' to pay my debts I've accrued over the last day", then mining here will not suit you.
Sometimes we can go for a few days (or more) without any blocks, due to the size of the pool.
The record 666.666% Diff block was 7.5days when the pool average was 2.27PHs
I am just a hobbyist miner. I don't like to play on currency speculations so I don't have any debt to pay. According to your pool performance and total hash rate, I do not expect your pool to get more than 3 blocks in a day (if I didn't miss count that). And I do not expect to get the payout everyday. I am just trying to understand the performance of your pool according the way you set that up. |
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"When are payments sent out?
The block 'Status' must first reach '+101 Confirms' on the Blocks page, and then is flagged as 'Matured', before the reward is distributed.
The block reward is sent out manually soon after that."
Kano must sleep from time to time so he will process payments as soon as he can. block 384805 is still being confirmed through the network so that might be confirmed when Kano processes the payments for block 384724.
actually looks like a payment just went through. But payment for block 384805 is still to be processed once 101 confirms has been done and Kano manually processes it.
Thanks for your comment, even though I am perfectly aware about all of that including the part that you said Kano must sleep. So you don't need to be sarcastic like that. I was just wondering why my second payout on https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/a8a8b85b019db40034e260e31ac18e42e682a36b465b2b147e86da2df7069846, take so long to get confirmed. It got 5 confirmations as I am writing this, so it took almost 3 hours. My guess is that the transaction fee for that is too low, i.e only 0.001 BTC. As I wrote before, I am testing this pool. This kind of figures are the ones that I am after, to decide whether the pool is good or not. |
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The biggest problem is that for this little money nobody is going to find it worth their time to really do what it takes to track this guy down and make him pay. Its probably just not worth it ya know.
It would be great if the miners here get what they deserved. But I don't think it is the coins that he stole from the miners is the issue. I think the feeling being scammed off is more hurt that the actual coins that the miners didn't get. And all civilise people definitely do not want this to happen again to everybody else. Have you ever been pick-pocketed? You were definitely angry because of you feel like a fool, not because of the money you have lost as you most probably do not have thousands of USD or EUR in your wallet that the pick-pocket took. Even if you reported that to the police, you definitely just get a letter of confirmation for you to renew your driving license and all cards inside your wallet. You definitely didn't get your wallet back, unless people found it and sent it back to you. In some countries, because of the built up angers, people just beat the pick-pocket when they caught him as people get frustrated on his action. Sometime they beat him to death. I hope this would not happen to Nexious that he would end up cripple just because he stole a few coins. |
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So what should we do to punish Nexious?
He definitely acted against any civilise laws, antisocial or basically he committed a crime here. If bashing his balls would not be an option as that is against the laws in any countries, what should we do to punish him and stop him? He will definitely do this again if we don't do anything. But I am confused myself what option do we have.
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No apologies needed just trying to keep us on topic. Getting this dirty OP and the money that is owed to the miners here. Granted I am more likely to win the lotto than seeing this guy brought to justice bad damn this type of crap pisses me off to no end!
What do you think we should do instead of bashing his balls of? If a guy promised you to give 100 EUR in exchange for you to do something but he doesn't keep his promise after you have done that, what would you do? I don't think you can sue him or ask the police to do something without a legal contract between you and him for that agreement. This happens everywhere in the world to the illegal workers. I think what has happened on this pool is the same. There was no legal contract with the OP and we all just volunteerly gave our hashrates for him to get the reward. So it is actually up to him what to do with the reward. Unfortunately, he decided to keep it for himself. |
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JB - you have the patience of a saint   Perhaps he is! What do you think made him found the first ever block on this pool? |
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I was indeed replying to your question to kano. Unfortunately the answer you're looking for is not as simple as the question appears to be . Let me try another approach to see if it helps you understand the differences between the two pools. The hash rate is really not relevant as long as it is consistent between the two pools. Mining on Eligius, you will absolutely never have any possibility to make more than however many shares you've submitted. You are absolutely capped at 100% of expected earnings. Reality is you will not make 100% because of factors like orphaned blocks. Mining on kano, you have the possibility to make more or less than expected earnings dependent upon the luck of the pool. Let's look at some real numbers. You are mining at 100GH/s. This means that you would expect to submit 23.28 difficulty 1 shares every second (100,000,000,000 / 2^32). With a network difficulty of 65,848,255,179 each of those shares is worth 0.00000000037966 BTC. There are 86,400 seconds in a day. Therefore, your expected earnings per day are 0.000763644672 BTC. Not surprisingly, this is exactly what an online calculator would show you as well. For the sake of your example, we're going to assume that the difficulty will not change for the entire 12 weeks. In reality, it would change about 6 times. So, keeping the difficulty constant, your 100GH/s mining would expect to earn 0.064146152448 BTC in 12 weeks. At current rates, that's about $20.79. Ok... now if we go back to my original statement, with Eligius, you can never, ever make more than that 0.064146152448 BTC in those 12 weeks. On kano, you can make more than that, or you can make less. Kano's pool has, since inception, been running about 101% luck. That has no bearing on future luck - it is just a metric of past performance. However, it is a metric that shows had you been mining on Eligius for the past year and on kano for the past year, given identical hash rates on each pool, you would have made more on kano. Well... This is exactly the practical answer that I have been looking for. Thanks a lot for that. And I am sorry to be so ignorant. I tried to understand the calculations based on the explanations on how the payout are being done by the pools, but those just make me more confused. |
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First, let me clarify the way Eligius works. They are not a true PPS pool. They cap the number of shares, and they shelve shares that cannot be paid. Kano is a PPLNS pool. They also cap the number of shares you get paid. The primary difference between Eligius and kano is the following:
A share in Eligius will get paid exactly one time.
A share in Kano can potentially be paid multiple times.
So, pool luck plays a factor in how many times a share gets paid in Kano. Pool luck plays a factor in whether or not your share will be paid in Eligius.
Right now, Eligius can pay exactly 65,848,255,179 shares per block. It doesn't matter if it took them 1 share or 1,000,000,000,000,000 shares to find that block, the maximum they pay is equal to the difficulty. If it took Eligius fewer than difficulty number of shares to solve the block, then they can look into the shelved shares and pay out some of those. If it took Eligius more than difficulty number of shares to solve the block, then they shelve the shares. Maybe you get paid for them, maybe you don't.
Does this help clarify things for you?
I guess you are referring to my questions to Kano. If so, thanks a lot for trying to clarify that. However, I am actually looking for more practical answer as to which one between CKPool and Eligius pays more to the miner with low hashrate, e.g. 100 GH/s, for the exact same period of mining which on the scenario I mentioned is 12 weeks. From what I have experienced so far on Eligius, I get only around 10 mBTC for 2 weeks of mining. I could possibly get more if my miners (Antminer U3) are more stable. I guess I have to try CKPool myself to get a definite answer to that question. |
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I am not going going to answer for Kano here. But this is a Nexious Pool thread. Well was a nexious pool thread. You would most likely get a better and quicker response if you asked him directly under his pools thread which can be found here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.0. But I do know that Kano's pool pays out like this. I asked my question here because Kano commented here. I am quite sure that it would be considered offensive if I would ask my questions on his pool's thread.
I hope this clears up your questions
Thanks. But that is exactly what are written on CKPool and Eligius pools. So no, that does not clear up my questions whether CKPool provides better payout than Eligius for the scenario that I mentioned or not. I think Eligius gives better payout in that scenario and perhaps most of scenarios for low hashrate miners. But I could be totally wrong, hence the questions. |
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Should mine on Eligius or P2Pool, both of which pay miners directly from the coinbase generation transaction. No middleman for the majority of payouts, can look at your miner's debug logs (or other tool) to see exactly who you're working to pay. At the very least, mine on a pool with a good track record. I could see stuff like this becoming a trend.  "majority" Except Eligius doesn't ... sometimes, and the coins can spend months waiting for the eligius middleman to send them to miners ... as you well know yourself. Since, as with any pool, there's the question of how much you are paid ... there's also the obvious point about the long term luck of the pool, that is under the control of the pool. Yes you may like to pretend that everything that happens at your pool is luck, but that's a lie. For the last year (most likely years) your pool block change times have been terrible and part of the cause of the low "luck". You have only recently made any reasonable changes regarding that (in the last month or so) Your changes before that, in the previous years, to over come the shortcomings of your pool software, were (among other thing) to: 1) For 5 months only allow 32 transactions per block 2) For years and still currently, mine empty blocks every network block change, yet your block change times are still slow using this, bad for bitcoin, excuse. You even effectively made the most ridiculous statement about your own pool payouts trying to point out a short coming of PPS ...
Antpool and f2pool also don't pay transaction fees to miners. This is going to become more important, especially after the next reward halving.
Your pool pays less than PPS with an absolute maximum limit of PPS ... so when reward halves, so does your pool payout ... just like it does for Antpool and f2pool and for the same reason. ... and as with most limit functions ... limits are rarely reached. Hi Kano, I am new to Bitcoin mining with only a few GH/s hashrate. I have tried some pools and I finally chose to mine on Eligius pool. I believe it is the most fair pool for miner with low hashrate like me. Looking at the total hashrate, I believe the miners trust Eligius more than other pools run by volunteers, which is much more than the total hashrate of for instance CKPool. I didn't try CKPool as I believe I would not get the payout for whole shares due to my low hashrate. The other reason I didn't try CKPool is your comments toward Eligius pool like I quoted above, which I found them mostly offensive so that do not help me to get fair perspective. But perhaps that is due to my lack of understanding. So if you don't mind to explain why do you think CKPool is better than Eligius in term of the payout using the example below, I would really appreciate that. Suppose Eligius pool finds a new and valid block on the 12th week. In the the previous 12 weeks, I submitted 1,000,000 valid shares each week and my total shares value exceeds the payout threshold on the 8th week. From what I experience, the whole of that 12,000,000 shares is being paid out on that 12th week, without any deduction for fee. I still cannot entirely understand the payment scheme explained on CKPool site. But I believe I would get less payout on CKPool for the same scenario above. If not, could you please explain how much I would get from CKPool for the above scenario? Cheers, Anto |
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Wooaaahh... Hold your horse. What make you so sure that is him? We could be punishing innocent guy. |
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