Thanks for your very clear last paragraph. There is nothing really to add, except that its a bit more challenging for hunters to keep up if momero et al is used for doing crime. But I m very sure that here (over a tracable internet) is always a way of tracing things - not so in fiat.
For LN I m not so sure since LN to work on big scale, it will centralize to few big lending + netting = clearing hubs. And so with lost censorship resistance fungibility is at risk again.
Its not hard to conclude I prefer bitcoin cash and there is more why.
You don’t need Monero or any special crypto variant to hide illegal transactions. Even bitcoin can be made to be secure enough for hiding transactions. All of these seedy developers attempting to make the perfect hidden private double super secret nerd money have always been a giant joke to me. The money isn’t what gets criminals caught. Al Capone wasn’t caught because he used dollars. He was caught and sentenced because he failed to pay taxes. Ross Ulbricht wasn’t caught because he used bitcoin. He got caught because he let his guard down and made stupid mistakes. In both of the above cases the criminal organization was infiltrated and the money was put into mainstream legal activities. In other words, Al Capone wasn’t caught because the government used a quantum computer to catch him selling a glass of gin and a hooker to Joe Blow. They caught him because he had too much money to launder effectively and never paid his taxes when he laundered the money. The government doesn’t try catch every citizen that buys a line of coke and piece of ass. They don’t want to jail that many people. They bust a few of them and offer a plea deal so they can find out who sold them the pussy and coke. Then they focus (sometimes thousands of LEO’s and millions of dollars) on locating the dealer. If it’s the USA chasing him, the criminal is bad enough and he’s overseas they make the foreign government help them (like BTCe) or they drone strike him. If he’s domestic, they infiltrate his organization wait for a mistake and pounce. In either case, the money he used (yen, yuan, dollars or crypto) is inconsequential to the case. There is no fungability between different cryptos. They are not all equally interchangeable. One BTC is not equal to one XMR or one BCH. Censorship of a single crypto is called blacklisting. That’s where you have one coin address that’s not equal to every other coin address. That keeps the coins from being equally interchangeable and destroys fungability. All currencies require fungability (complete interchangeability between denominations) to work as currencies. However, anonymity is not required for something to function as a currency. If you have a one ounce pure gold ingot stamped in Canada and one stamped in China they are completely interchangeable and fungible but they are not anonymous. You know where they came from and can track them. If you have two dollar bills with different serial numbers you can track where they have been and where they were manufactured but they are still fungible because they are each always worth one dollar. There’s a site called “WheresGeorge” that tracks dollar bills ( https://www.wheresgeorge.com) but all of those dollar bills are still worth a dollar and are fungible. BCH is just a bitcoin fork. People are going to side with one fork or the other at their own preference. If bitcoin forks too many times it will eventually dilute the value of every bitcoin variant so much it will make them all equally worthless. Be careful supporting forks that break away from core. Thx again and agian lots of truth I cannot say better. In terms of fork I see SW is the wrong fork for me and I saw a great bunch of miners on my side from the beginning when this central idea came up and finally was dicteded into bitcoin by a trick. And I also see it good to break up the last central point of good old bitcoin, which is that core. This finally makes bitcoin really disruptive and hopefully anti-fragil. One of the reasons I m still here. Now see what (businesses) else are just breaking away from core, all those why I m here as well from very early, far earlier than my account date show. Guess, it cannot be stopped, this very trendy break away. You may be right, BCH may end up the winner. Hell, it may be a better solution for a majority of people and win the race. I know people that use scrypt coins think they’re better than bitcoin core. Even if it’s true it does not matter because altcoins are seen as fundamentally different. Different bitcoins are a different story. Bitcoin currently has the name recognition and the media attention because it was first. If Litecoin was first and used by Silk Road maybe it would be the adoption leader, who knows. The general public barely knows what to think about bitcoin as it is. People are inherently lazy and don’t really want to know how things work (even most people on this forum). If you call too many things bitcoin, they might give up on crypto altogether. The only safe bitcoin fork has unanimous community support and completely replaces the previous. Anything else is bitcoin suicide. |
|
|
|
Thanks for your very clear last paragraph. There is nothing really to add, except that its a bit more challenging for hunters to keep up if momero et al is used for doing crime. But I m very sure that here (over a tracable internet) is always a way of tracing things - not so in fiat.
For LN I m not so sure since LN to work on big scale, it will centralize to few big lending + netting = clearing hubs. And so with lost censorship resistance fungibility is at risk again.
Its not hard to conclude I prefer bitcoin cash and there is more why.
You don’t need Monero or any special crypto variant to hide illegal transactions. Even bitcoin can be made to be secure enough for hiding transactions. All of these seedy developers attempting to make the perfect hidden private double super secret nerd money have always been a giant joke to me. The money isn’t what gets criminals caught. Al Capone wasn’t caught because he used dollars. He was caught and sentenced because he failed to pay taxes. Ross Ulbricht wasn’t caught because he used bitcoin. He got caught because he let his guard down and made stupid mistakes. In both of the above cases the criminal organization was infiltrated and the money was put into mainstream legal activities. In other words, Al Capone wasn’t caught because the government used a quantum computer to catch him selling a glass of gin and a hooker to Joe Blow. They caught him because he had too much money to launder effectively and never paid his taxes when he laundered the money. The government doesn’t try catch every citizen that buys a line of coke and piece of ass. They don’t want to jail that many people. They bust a few of them and offer a plea deal so they can find out who sold them the pussy and coke. Then they focus (sometimes thousands of LEO’s and millions of dollars) on locating the dealer. If it’s the USA chasing him, the criminal is bad enough and he’s overseas they make the foreign government help them (like BTCe) or they drone strike him. If he’s domestic, they infiltrate his organization wait for a mistake and pounce. In either case, the money he used (yen, yuan, dollars or crypto) is inconsequential to the case. There is no fungability between different cryptos. They are not all equally interchangeable. One BTC is not equal to one XMR or one BCH. Censorship of a single crypto is called blacklisting. That’s where you have one coin address that’s not equal to every other coin address. That keeps the coins from being equally interchangeable and destroys fungability. All currencies require fungability (complete interchangeability between denominations) to work as currencies. However, anonymity is not required for something to function as a currency. If you have a one ounce pure gold ingot stamped in Canada and one stamped in China they are completely interchangeable and fungible but they are not anonymous. You know where they came from and can track them. If you have two dollar bills with different serial numbers you can track where they have been and where they were manufactured but they are still fungible because they are each always worth one dollar. There’s a site called “WheresGeorge” that tracks dollar bills ( https://www.wheresgeorge.com) but all of those dollar bills are still worth a dollar and are fungible. BCH is just a bitcoin fork. People are going to side with one fork or the other at their own preference. If bitcoin forks too many times it will eventually dilute the value of every bitcoin variant so much it will make them all equally worthless. Be careful supporting forks that break away from core. |
|
|
|
Walmart would be pretty amazing. Shopping made ez IMO
Online shopping has its place, but 80% of my shopping come in the form of BM Wal Mart
Walmart is the devil. Walmart: Destroys Small Businesses Awful Employee Health Insurance Policy Abuses the Elderly Abuses Women Their Prices Are Misleading Pays so little that most of their employees are on welfare Uses Foreign Labor (including child labor) Neglects Pregnant Workers Discriminates against disabled workers Isn’t A Safe Working Environment Is Notorious For Wage Theft Has a bad track record for animal welfare Has lied to keep its public image clean It’s security shop lifting force has tackled and KILLED people in their parking lots The only thing they care about is rich people. In 2013, the Walton family received $8 billion in tax breaks, $6.2 billion of which came from federal taxpayer subsidies handed to them because employee wages are so low. Currently, the company is also hosting $21.4 billion in offshore accounts, which remain untaxed by the U.S. government. And in 2014, as Walmart failed to meet shareholder expectations, the company somehow managed to dig up enough money to give its CEO a $1.5 million bonus for performing poorly at his job. Walmart isn’t just greedy. The company is the epitome of greed. As its overworked and underpaid employees struggle to make ends meet, Walmart’s top brass make billions, even as stock is dropping. Everything about the company is capitalism at its worst. Most Americans have heard the stories but they are so stupid they keep shopping there every week. |
|
|
|
|
It makes me laugh that China is a one party communist government and they have no problem with bitcoin but little shit Bangladesh is a parliamentary democracy and they do.
I guess democracy isn’t all that great after all.
|
|
|
|
I am still disappointed that Steam is no longer supporting Bitcoin payments - they removed this option in December.
Apparently, the reasoning behind it was a fact that BTC transactions are 'too expensive' (high fees) and Steam is all about selling cheap games.
Yeah right, I will just use G2A from now on they don't have a problem with bitcoin payments I don't think it is specifically because of transactions being too costly It is not Steam which pays them anyway so why should they really care, huh? Myself, I'm more inclined to think there's simply not enough interest from the community to pay with crypto since if there were they could have kept this option available and switched to Litecoin payments or whatever instead of Bitcoin but they didn't. I guess this is the real cause of Steam dismantling their cryptopayments infrastructure. No one is interested in Bitcoin or crypto at large as a means of payment. This is the whole point of Steam ditching their support for Bitcoin You’re absolutely right. You would have to be a fool to pay with bitcoin when it’s climbing in value so fast. That would be like using your Apple stock to buy bitcoin right before a new iPhone release. Businesses have been dropping bitcoin as a payment option like mad.  |
|
|
|
This would not be a 1 issue party.
Lets say a party is formed in the US.
At the core would be a reform of foreign policy, monetary policy, and drug policy.
Bitcoin wouldn't replace the monetary system, but would be part of the reform of monetary policy.
This party could be anonymously funded with crypto.
Thoughts?
That’s possible as soon as you rewrite the constitution and kill all the Christians. LOL |
|
|
|
They cannot do anything bro. None of the person or government cannot stop the bitcoin usage or ban it bro. You will find the bitcoin will be on moon. You will get the profit if you hold the bitcoin at anytime. You may see the many trollings about the bitcoin but it is still stands in the market like lion. None one will be able to control the bitcoin since it is decentralized currency.
Many times US and Chinese Government shows the interest and tried to get the patent and many works but no one achieved it.
Oh really? They will shut down all exchanges. They will shut down all websites that accept coins. They will arrest every guy doing business on localbitcoin. They will confiscate and shut down all mining farms. What are you going to do? Where are you going to sell your coins, what are you going to spend them? SR v4.0.1? Then be ready for 70$ a coin. I guess government cannot stop the people to buy bitcoin i guess they can banned the usage of bitcoin in their country but not totally banned the bitcoin ti self because it is decentralized and basically it is control by the community so i guess the government have no control to this and can only control a certain part in there country only bitcoin trade it is simply banning the change of their currency into bitcoin so basiccally i guess the people could make a way to buy bitcoin in another currency.
Oh really? What if the chinese say owning bitcoin is a felony that can be punished with capital punishment ? (they still have the death sentence there). After 100 bitcoin users executed live on tv on a stadium like they have the habit on doing, do you think somebody will touch bitcoin in China? I've lived for long enough in a communist country during the age of the warsaw pact to understand that is a government is bent on enforcing something, they will!!! People in the USA are sent to prison for 7-10 years for armed robbery and life in prison for murder. The convicts spend their free time eating cum and getting fucked in the ass by big black std infected dicks but robbery and murders haven’t stopped (actually they are increasing in frequency). Governments only have limited control of their citizens. What control they do have is not forced its voluntary. |
|
|
|
|
We will just need to start using dollars to buy drugs then.
|
|
|
|
|
Because I say so. That’s all you need to know.
I have further proof. Because if bitcoin is a bubble it might crash all the way down to zero someday and I won’t become a bagillionare with my $2.98 investment. So it’s not a bubble.
|
|
|
|
|
Who gives a shit about Bangladesh. The entire economy of Bangladesh is worth like $12.50.
|
|
|
|
Because Merlin the happy pig wants it that way.  |
|
|
|
|
Market capitalization is a useless metric to determine bitcoins user base or market saturation. It means absolutely nothing.
Market cap = number of coins x price per coin
A market cap of 15 million dollars can be 15 million coins x $1 per coin and 15 million people each own one coin.
A market cap of 15 million dollars can be 15 million coins x $1 per coin and one person owns them all.
You may as well talk about the effect of having millions of butterflies and moths attracted to bitcoin mining equipment.
|
|
|
|
|
I don’t know whether it will still work but here’s what I did a couple of times when Overstock first started accepting bitcoins.
Go to overstock.com and find something small that closely matches the amount you want to cash out (a couple thousand dollars at most). Wait a few days then return the item to them for a refund. You will have to pay shipping (which is cheap on small items). I had an account with overstock for years before they started accepting bitcoin so they always refunded to me in my local fiat. I even made money on the purchases because I earned reward points that covered the shipping cost. It might not work if they figured out they were acting like a btc to fiat exchange.
There may be other companies that this will work with too, I don’t know.
|
|
|
|
|
Considering their corporate office is located in Gibraltar, they are probably under investigation by some US government agency with the full cooperation of the British government. LOL
From the Gibraltar government: “
The Gibraltar Financial Services Commission (GFSC) has noticed the increasing use of tokens or coins based on Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT) as a means of raising finance, especially by early-stage start-ups. The sale of such tokens is often conducted using terms such as initial coin offering (ICO), token sale, initial token offering and the like.
A new regulatory framework for DLT which will become operational as from January 2018 will regulate the activities of firms, operating in or from Gibraltar, that use DLT to store or transmit value belonging to others, such as virtual currency exchanges.”
|
|
|
|
so if i understand this correctly i could sell or move my bitcoin in 2 days and in 2018 coinbase should show my bitcoin cash in my accout even though i have moved my bitcoin. Am I correct in this assumption?
Who knows what Coinbase would do. They are in the middle of an internal audit for possible insider trading. Although, they have a pretty new glass office high up in one of the less expensive buildings in San Francisco, you cannot just go to their office and ask them what’s going on. If you flew to San Francisco, held a gun to building security on the ground floor, I suppose you could get to their floor, however; you will not get in their suite because the door will be locked. They are not available for a walk-in and do not talk to customers directly. If you want to use a financial establishment that talks to its customers try Chase Bank, Bank Of America or Wells Fargo. Hell, I’ve been in a Bank of East Asia and a Bank of Canton in San Francisco and just walked right in the building. I have never trusted financial businesses that will not allow you to talk to them, especially when they do have a brick n’ mortar location. What are they afraid of anyway? The same laws, guards and cops that protect Chase Bank will also protect them in case of trouble. Are they afraid that some goof with nerd rage will come to their suite and challenge them to a nasty game of Rock Band? Maybe their afraid that one of the customers they’ve ripped off will try to get their money back. MtGox round two?  |
|
|
|
|
I would say that’s a big YES.
Mark Karpeles went to prison and is out on bail.
Charlie Shrem went to prison and served his time.
Ross Ulbrich is still serving a life sentence.
Shaun Bridges went to prison for 71 months.
Sal Mansy is in prison for not registering his peer-to-peer bitcoin sales and profit with the right agency.
Robert Faiella, an underground Bitcoin exchanger, went to prison.
Alexander Vinnik (Of BTCe fame) went to prison.
From mining equipment sales conmen to exchange operators, the list goes on and on.
|
|
|
|
I’m not sure this old thread is even a relevant discussion any longer. Oh sure, you could probably still discuss the fact that core devs are rude little nerd pussies with a god complex but that’s hardly a productive discussion.
Lightning is just about to take off and fix the rest.
Of course value and price are not the same thing. If you ever run across anyone again that thinks they are equal explain it this way. You are stuck in middle of the Sahara desert without water. A helicopter landed offering to sell you water for $10,000 a gallon but could not take you with them. You would buy the water with every dime in your bank account because the water has enormous value to you. Does that mean the new price of water globally is $10,000 a gallon? No.
You need schnorr with valueshuffle and LN for bitcoin to really take off. LN alone wont do.. bulletproofs may help Sure, if you assume huge transactions requiring multisig for drug dealers and illegal arms salesmen will be the only people using bitcoin. The rest of us don’t need that for LN to work. You havent analyzed who uses bitcoin. Do first look at which form of txs are generally used and then reread my post. Valueshuffle and bulletproofs are needed for fungability. I don’t know how to respond to this because it doesn’t make any sense. Lightning simply allows strangers who have never met to transact without ever making a transaction on the bitcoin ledger. No two different transactions between private parties is ever fungible regardless of whether you are using dollars or bitcoin. If Bob gives Alice $5 in one private transaction that transaction is not interchangeable with Ted giving Mary $75. Fungibility is not an issue with LN because bitcoin will still be fungible. Valueshuffle is just another method of mixing coins like Maxwell’s CoinJoin. I don’t buy a lot of heroin or assault rifles and I would kind of like to keep an eye on those that do, so that makes CoinJoin unnecessary for me. If you want something truly anonymous why don’t you just use dollars? Most txs are multisig if you have looked at the historical analysis. Schnorr will reduce those to size of p2pk. Bulletproofs combined with valueshuffle provides MPC to essentially negate any bandwidth costs of privacy by aggregating proofs into single one like schnorr does. Bitcoin is not fully fungible due to coins being public and thus my statement that its needed. Actually mimblewimble is cool cause poelstra showed you only need bandwidth to download of utxo set to sync however using bulletproofs the utxo would shrink more than 10x and the bandwidth req for new sync becomes the number of tx with utxos which is pretty much mobile accessible connectivity to network. So you see it has nothing to do with using it for darknet. I’m sorry to say, you have completely lost me again. I was talking about LN fixing the transaction volume, fee and speed issues. Gavin mentioned implementing Schnorr signatures years ago as a part of his wish list (slightly smaller for all transactions, possibly better security, bla bla). That was part of Adam Back’s roadmap for bitcoin. It’s still unnecessary for implementing LN which is what I was talking about. That would be a bitcoin change not an LN change anyway and could still be implemented after the LN rollout. Bitcoin is not fungible because coins are public? I don’t even know what that means. Fungability literally means mutually interchangeable. Dollars are fungible and they are public currency worldwide. Bitcoins will remain interchangeable after LN. The only way I can see you being able to change the fungability of bitcoin is with blacklisting or some other such nonsense. All the rest is related mostly to privacy and, as I’ve already stated, that is unimportant to me. Dollars have perfect privacy. You can buy all the hookers, coke and rifles you will ever need with dollars and never get caught from tracking the purchase. Where people are caught using currency is by depositing too much of it in a bank (drug/arms dealers) or exchanging too much into another currency (like cash real estate buys, exchanging dollars for another fiat, failure to pay taxes and justify income, etc.). I got bad news for you, you will also get caught with even the most private crypto if you do any of those things. So, in the end, it just doesn’t matter how private the transaction is, you can’t use the money unless your transaction is legal. |
|
|
|
Do you understand the concept of separating the signatures into a separate block structure? The discussion relevant to your Nashian prespective is about the concept, not instantiations of the concept.
I wouldn't attempt to interest you in anything that involved tps increases, it's outside the useful bounds of this discussion, we both agree that. Segregated witness blocks need not increase tps.
Malleability is the great boogeyman of this forum. People here exaggerate the need to fix malleability. Transaction malleability is the big lie Mark Karpeles used to steal hundreds of thousands of btc from the hands of fools. |
|
|
|
I’m not sure this old thread is even a relevant discussion any longer. Oh sure, you could probably still discuss the fact that core devs are rude little nerd pussies with a god complex but that’s hardly a productive discussion.
Lightning is just about to take off and fix the rest.
Of course value and price are not the same thing. If you ever run across anyone again that thinks they are equal explain it this way. You are stuck in middle of the Sahara desert without water. A helicopter landed offering to sell you water for $10,000 a gallon but could not take you with them. You would buy the water with every dime in your bank account because the water has enormous value to you. Does that mean the new price of water globally is $10,000 a gallon? No.
You need schnorr with valueshuffle and LN for bitcoin to really take off. LN alone wont do.. bulletproofs may help Sure, if you assume huge transactions requiring multisig for drug dealers and illegal arms salesmen will be the only people using bitcoin. The rest of us don’t need that for LN to work. You havent analyzed who uses bitcoin. Do first look at which form of txs are generally used and then reread my post. Valueshuffle and bulletproofs are needed for fungability. I don’t know how to respond to this because it doesn’t make any sense. Lightning simply allows strangers who have never met to transact without ever making a transaction on the bitcoin ledger. No two different transactions between private parties is ever fungible regardless of whether you are using dollars or bitcoin. If Bob gives Alice $5 in one private transaction that transaction is not interchangeable with Ted giving Mary $75. Fungibility is not an issue with LN because bitcoin will still be fungible. Valueshuffle is just another method of mixing coins like Maxwell’s CoinJoin. I don’t buy a lot of heroin or assault rifles and I would kind of like to keep an eye on those that do, so that makes CoinJoin unnecessary for me. If you want something truly anonymous why don’t you just use dollars? |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
